Man is god in embryo

[RestoredGospelEvidences]

It has been said of the critics of the LDS faith that it is blasphemy to think that man could be god. They claim that to do so would some how take away from the glory of God. If man were able to reach perfection over eons of time wouldn't that add to the glory of God as this person continues to worship God through the eternities?

This concept, doctrine, theme about man (or women), are gods (or goddesses), in embryo, has been discussed here on different threads. So I wonder if things need to be repeated, or just links offered to them. See my comments here. Plus, this one, #2, #3, Other links to consider, A, B, C, D, etc.

Though the LDS versions of deification, called exaltation, or theosis, Christian moral perfection, are testified to be restored gospel versions, they are admittedly different from the many different versions found in the different scattered branches of historic Christianity. From LDS-Mormon perspectives, there are differences because of "the great apostasy" that legendized & changed many beliefs & doctrines. Blended in others' beliefs too, such as Christians Christianizing pagan festivals & similar beliefs, & Pagans paganizing Christian beliefs, as centuries went by. (James L. Barker, Apostasy From the Divine Church, (Salt Lake City, Utah: Deseret News Press, CR 1960, Kate Montgomery Barker); James L. Barker, The Divine Church, Down Through Change, Apostasy therefrom, and Restoration, (Salt Lake City, Utah: The Deseret News, 1951). Being a course of study for the Melchizedek Priesthood Quorums for the years 1952-4), 3 vols: 1952, 1953, 1954. T. Edgar Lyon, Apostasy to Restoration, (Salt Lake City, Utah: Deseret Book Company, 1960; Course of Study for the Melchizedek Priesthood Quorums of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, CR 1960, David O. McKay). See also sources below.

Debates over differences in the idea that God(s) came down to be humans, or humans becoming gods: These have gone on between early to later Christians, Jews, Greeks, Romans, pagans & others for centuries. Polemical debates & writings have been preserved as to how different early to later Christians, & others looked upon what God or the gods & goddesses were said to be like in their nature, form, shapes, or non-shaped, being incarnated (in a body), or incorporeal (without a body). Or born to a woman to become a resurrected glorified man. Such things are part of the historical records.

However, before modern Christians have charged that Mormons' version of "godmaking" sound like Greek mythology, or ancient Romans' versions. The early to later anti-Christians have used the same types of arguments & charges against early to later Christians' versions of Christ becoming a man, to later die & become a resurrected god, with a body (glorified & perfected). Before modern anti-Mormon "Christians" rejected Mormons' "working their way to godhood." Calvin, during the reformation, rejected the monastic-Christians' versions of working on Christ-like-traits towards godhood. These were also illustrated in ladders to heaven, where each rung ascended, represented the ascent towards "Christian moral perfection." Having mastered faith, hope, charity, kindness, etc., as each rung represented a Christ like trait. At the top of the ladders, often depicted, is the crown, symbolic of deification, being enthroned a god or goddess. Christ is often there to greet the ascending monk with different types of hand & wrist grasping. Symbolic of being raised up to join the other deified in the society of newly deified faithful Christians who had worked hard on overcoming their passions, sins, & bad habits. Thus, they were becoming perfected gods or goddesses who didn't "fall" to the temptations represented below under the ladders. Some of these temptations were depicted as piles of gold, un-virtuous women (in the case with male ascending the ladders, who might be distracted & fall off the ladders because they heeded the temptations of evil women calling to them from below). Plus, other temptations & demonic distractions that might cause them to fall, like the fallen angels.

Before Mormons were vilified for teaching that God became a man, so we can learn from Christ how to become gods, or perfected in the after life realms. The early anti-Christians, citing the Jews, Greeks & others, mocked early Christians for believing that God, after creating the universe, would need to come down to earth to work with wood. Celsus, for example, (2nd cent.), mocks Christ's descent to earth, his physical body, eating habits, travel modes, & other human traits, & knowing that the Greeks & other mystery religions also had their own pre-Christian versions of deification, calls the early Christians' versions an old worn out myth.

An interesting version of deification is the virgin Mary's soul being handed over to angel to ascend through the heavenly mysteries, coronations, crownings, enthronments, & deification process to become the Queen of Heaven, sometimes depicted enthroned with Christ, or other members of the godhead.

Over the centuries, the pagan mysteries & Christians' mysteries, have their own versions of deification, which have been used to either create more debates, or served as common beliefs by which to get along with each other. Perhaps we can explore beliefs here, in a more loving way that what I've seen on different posts. There are differences, of course, but there are also common themes, or similar beliefs too. LDS versions of deification are different than modern Christians' versions. So let's explore them in a more respectful way.

Sources for comments:

Alfred Firmin Loisy, The Birth of the Christian Religion and The Origins of the New Testament, French title: La Naissance du Christianisme Les Origines du Nouveau Testament, translated by L. P. Jacks.

Angelo S. Rappoport, Ph. D., Ancient Israel Myths and Legends, (New York: Bonanza Books, 1987), 3 in 1 volume.

Anna D. Kartsonis, Anastasis, The Making of An Image, (Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press, 1986).

Arnold Toynbee, (Editor), The Crucible of Christianity, Judaism, Hellenism and The Historical Background to the Christian Faith, (New York, and Cleveland, World Publishing Company, CR Thames & Hudson, 1969).

A. S. Garretson, Primitive Christianity And Early Criticism, (Boston: Sherman, French & Company, 1912).

Radio shows on deification, Christians were Godmakers before LDS were.

Caroline Walker Bynum, Jesus as Mother, Studies in the Spirituality of the High Middle Ages, (Berkeley, California: University of Berkeley California Press, 1982, paper back edition 1984).

Chandler Rathfon Post, A History of Spanish Painting, (Cambridge, Massachusetts: Harvard University Press, 1930—1958). (New York: Kraus reprint Company, 1970's).

Charles Norris Cochrane, Christianity and Classical Culture, (Clarendone Press, 1940, Paperback; Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1957).

Clifford Davidson, Editor, The Iconography of Heaven, Early Drama, Art, and Music, Monograph Series, 21, (Kalamazoo, Michigan: Medieval Institute Publications, Western Michigan University, 1994).

Colleen McDannell and Bernhard Lang, Heaven: A History, (New Haven and London: Yale University Press, 1988).

Darell Thorpe, "Ye Are Gods... Children of the Most High" On line rough draft.

David Knowles, 1969, Christian Monasticism, (New York, Toronto: World University Library, McGraw-Hill Company, reprinted 1972 & 1977). Tudor Publishers Company).

Dom Hubert Van Zeller, The Holy Rule, Notes on St. Benedict's Legislation for Monks, (New York: Sheed & Ward, 1958).

Francis Legge, Forerunners And Rivals Of Christianity, (From 330 B.C. TO 330 A.D.), 2 Volumes as 1, (New Hyde Park, New York: University Books, 1964).

Henry Ansgar Kelly, The Devil at baptism: Ritual, Theology, and Drama, (Ithaca and London: Cornell University Press, 1985).

J. Eugene Seaich, Ancient Texts and Mormonism, (Murray, Utah: Sounds of Zion, 1983).

John McManners, (Editor), The Oxford Illustrated History of Christianity, (Oxford, New York: Oxford University Press, 1990).

John Rupert Martin, The Illustration Of The Heavenly Ladder of John Climacus, (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1954). See art works.

Joshua Moses Bennett, The Writings of the Rabbis & Other Important Discoveries. (Salt Lake City, Utah: Morning Star, 1990).

Paul Johnson, A History of Christianity, (New York: Atheneum, 1979).

R. Joseph Hoffmann, (translator) Celsus On The True Doctrine, (A Discourse Against the early Christians), (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1987).

Robert Louis Wilken, The Christians As The Romans Saw Them, (Yale University Press; New Haven and London, 1984).

Stephen Benko, Pagan Rome And The Early Christians, (Indiana: Indiana University Press, 1984).

T. W. Doane, Bible Myth, And Their Parallels In Other Religions, (New York: The Truth Seeker Company, 1882 & 1910).

Vincent Cronin, Mary Portrayed, (London, England: Darton, Longman & Todd, 1968).

W. H. C. Frend, Martyrdom & Persecution In The Early Church, (Garden City, New York: Anchor Books Doubleday & Company, 1967). Martyrs were also depicted crowned, invested with heavenly robes, & deified as their rewards for martyrdom.

William G. Rusch, The Trinitarian Controversy, (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1980).

The Renaissance, Six Essays Wallace K. Ferguson, Robert S. Lopez, George Sarton, Roland H. Bainton, Leicester Bradner, Erwin Panofsky, (New York: Harper and Row, Harper Torchbooks, 1962, The Academy Library, CR 1953, by The Metropolitan Museum of Art).

Fredk, WM. Hackwood, F.R.S.L., Christ Lore (Being the Legends, Traditions, Myths, Symbols, & Superstitions of The Christian Church), (London: 1902, republished, Detroit: Gale Research Company, Book Tower, 1969).

Rev. Alexander Hislop, The Two Babylons (or The Papal Worship Proved to be the Worship of Nimrod and His Wife), (England: A & C Black, LTD., 1916; American editions, Neptune, New Jersey: Loizeaux Brothers, 1943 and 1956).

 

[Robban]

It has been said of the critics of the LDS faith that it is blasphemy to think that man could be god. They claim that to do so would some how take away from the glory of God. If man were able to reach perfection over eons of time wouldn't that add to the glory of God as this person continues to worship God through the eternities?

If you were to become as God,
so you decide to create your own humans,
From where would you get the dirt?
From your garden?
It is not your dirt.
You would have to start with nothing,
then you would have to utter a few utterences to bring forth what you wished to bring forth.

"That,s what Iv,e been trying to tell you people down there, it ain,t easy being God."

 

[fatboys]

If you were to become as God,
so you decide to create your own humans,
From where would you get the dirt?
From your garden?
It is not your dirt.
You would have to start with nothing,
then you would have to utter a few utterences to bring forth what you wished to bring forth.

"That,s what Iv,e been trying to tell you people down there, it ain,t easy being God."

There is no such thing as space with nothing in it. The galaxies are made from matter that already existed. God rearranged the matter into what we have today.

 

[Robban]

There is no such thing as space with nothing in it. The galaxies are made from matter that already existed. God rearranged the matter into what we have today.

If the creative letters were to depart even for an instant, God forbid,
and return to their source,
that source being the degree whence they emanate,
all the heavens would become naught and absolute nothingness,
and it would be as though they had never existed at all.

Exactly before the utterence, "Let there be a firmanent."

Forever O God, Your Word stands firm in the heavens. Ps 119:89

The Baal Shem Tov has explained it this concept at length,
and made it widely known that this means,
"Your Word" which You uttered,
"Let there be a firmanent in the midst of the waters."
words and letters (through which the heavens were created)
stand firmly forever within the firmanent of heaven ,
and are forever clothed within all the heavens to give them Life.

As is it is written,
"And the Word of our Lord shall stand firm forever." Isaiah 40:8

 

[fatboys]

If the creative letters were to depart even for an instant, God forbid,
and return to their source,
that source being the degree whence they emanate,
all the heavens would become naught and absolute nothingness,
and it would be as though they had never existed at all.

Exactly before the utterence, "Let there be a firmanent."

Forever O God, Your Word stands firm in the heavens. Ps 119:89

The Baal Shem Tov has explained it this concept at length,
and made it widely known that this means,
"Your Word" which You uttered,
"Let there be a firmanent in the midst of the waters."
words and letters (through which the heavens were created)
stand firmly forever within the firmanent of heaven ,
and are forever clothed within all the heavens to give them Life.

As is it is written,
"And the Word of our Lord shall stand firm forever." Isaiah 40:8

I realize that it brings comfort and a sense direction to believe that the bible has all the truth and is only Gods word. Some people have to put a microscope on the words of the bible to force it to imply what they want it to mean. The gospel is simple and complex. It s simple in that all we have to do is have the smallest amount of faith in order to get us on the right path. It is complex as we begin to gain knowledge and realize the more of gods laws we need to obey in order for us to become more Jesus. Now that takes a lot of work.
i believe that we can work so hard at trying to gain meanings from words or phrases to prove who and what God can do or has done is going to leave us with a distorted view of God.

 

[Robban]

I realize that it brings comfort and a sense direction to believe that the bible has all the truth and is only Gods word. Some people have to put a microscope on the words of the bible to force it to imply what they want it to mean. The gospel is simple and complex. It s simple in that all we have to do is have the smallest amount of faith in order to get us on the right path. It is complex as we begin to gain knowledge and realize the more of gods laws we need to obey in order for us to become more Jesus. Now that takes a lot of work.
i believe that we can work so hard at trying to gain meanings from words or phrases to prove who and what God can do or has done is going to leave us with a distorted view of God.

Probably,

 

[RestoredGospelEvidences]

If you were to become as God,
so you decide to create your own humans,
From where would you get the dirt?
From your garden?
It is not your dirt.
You would have to start with nothing,
then you would have to utter a few utterences to bring forth what you wished to bring forth.

"That,s what Iv,e been trying to tell you people down there, it ain,t easy being God."

Though deification is not an obvious expounded upon doctrine or belief in Jewish sects, there seems to be possible hints to beliefs held anciently. Some Jewish writings speak of how the holy & pious ones would obtain immortality. The Holy One, in the future, in the world to come, will reveal the Name with which new heavens & a new earth can be created for pious ones would be able to create new worlds by that name. Every pious one would inherit 340 worlds. Some Jews, such as Rabbi Saadia, was of the opinion that in the resurrection there would be some who would have wives. The same source also is said to tell of "Maimonides" who lived during the same time as the Kabbalists, was of the opinion that the family life would continue in the realms to come, or in the resurrection. Children would be begotten in the resurrection. In the Dead Sea Scrolls translated by Chaim Rabin, in the Damascus Document 2:7ff, we read of those who's descendants or "seed" would fill the universe. Many Jewish mystical text are said to presuppose that humans can become divine & dispose of the powers of God. In some texts, Enoch was deified into a "little Yahweh," upon his ascension into heaven. Other texts say how He was eventually carried to the 7th heaven were he saw God's throne of glory and the glory of the hosts of angels. The archangel Michael divested him of his earthly robes, anointed him with oil, and clothed him in the raiment of God's glory, and thus he became like one of the glorious inhabitants of the celestial regions.

Goodenough says that there was an ancient Jewish teaching that the patriarchs advanced to the spiritual stage where they assumed the garments of light and became saviors, saviors of their fellows.

While commenting on the Book of Enoch, R. H. Charles says that the righteous Jew believed that in the hereafter, life will be a constant progress from light to light as we become companions to the hosts of heaven.

These garments of light, also became part of early to later Christian mysteries, in which baptismal robes, often white, symbolic of purity, having been cleansed of the spots of sins. They are also symbolic of the resurrected body, baptism being a ritualistic type of Christ descent into death, his descent into the underworld, & buried with Christ, raised up with Christ in the resurrection. Thus, in being resurrected the soul is clothed in a glorious body, which the garment represents. It's also part of the heavenly coronation ceremonies that the Virgin Mary & others pass through in art works, on their way towards deification. Or souls passing through into paradise, greeted by St. Peter, or angels or other saints, who greet them & welcome them into paradise with different types of hand & wrist grasping. They are then clothed in garments or heavenly robes to cover their nakedness. A theme often written of by early to later Christian fathers lecturing on the holy mysteries. David's psalms are also part of the ancient temple themes & coronation ceremonies too, which have deification themes in them as well. The early Christians' versions of deification were derived in part from their Jewish heritage, & said to be restored by Christ, because the Hebrews had fallen into apostasy, like Christendom would later. An apostasy is where no more prophets are heard amongst them, writing what would be later considered scriptures. An apostasy is where the spiritual gifts also fade out & doctrines & rituals become legendized myths & traditions. The doctrine of deification, theosis, perfection or becoming divine: These themes were also subjected to the changes in what God, or the gods & goddesses were said to be like in their natures, forms, relationships to humans, & even family organizations, & appearances. Studies show that earlier Jewish sects, like later Christians, changed their beliefs of what the gods & goddesses were said to be like. Eventually, setting for non-human, non-shaped, non-physical types of explanations for God's nature, even though Christ, it was argued, still had a resurrected body, (as in the case with historic Christendom). As these polemical settings changed how the divine Parents were to be looked upon, so also did these dogmas eventually change what was believed humans could become in being deified, or becoming gods or goddesses. In Christ's time, there were those who wanted to stone Christ for being "a man" making himself as a god. He cites the law to show that the concept was written there. There are those who have done studies on this to show the concepts of deification were in such writings as the Psalms. See sources below.

Sources: John 10:28-39. The Writings of the Rabbis & Other Important Discoveries, by Joshua Moses Bennett, 1990, p.27, The Talmud (General Collection), Doct.#46, citing Raphael Patai, p.251). See: Also: D&C 76:58; 132:19-20. Moses 1:33, 35; 7:30; The Gospel of the Great Spirit, by Joshua Moses Bennett, 1900 Morning Star Pub. p.534-5, Appendix G; Ancient Texts & Mormonism, Eugene Seaich, 1983, p.47, notes, p.132; Seed = descendants, or off-spring, children; See also: Ancient Israel Myths & Legends, by Angelo S. Rappopport, 1987, Bonanza Books, N.Y., Vol.1, p.23, & note 1. Charles and Morfill, The Secrets of Enoch; Offenders For A Word, (How Anti-Mormons Play Word Games to Attack the Latter-day Saints), by Prof. Daniel C. Peterson & Stephen D. Ricks, 1992, Pub. by Aspen Books, S.L.C. Ut., p.78, see also notes 243-4, p.222, Peter Hayman, "Monotheism-- A Misused Word in Jewish Studies?" Journal of Jewish Studies 42 (Spring 1991): 4-5; cf. 11-12; Alan F. Segal's Paul the Convert: The Apostolate & Apostasy of Saul the Pharisee. New Haven: Yale, 1990, 34-71; cf. 22; The Collected Works of Huge Nibley, Vol.1, Old Testament And Related Studies, Pub. by F.A.R.M.S, Provo Ut., & DBC., SLC Ut., 1986, p.149-50. Prof. Stephen D. Ricks & LeGrand L. Baker, Who Shall Ascend Into the Hill of the Lord? (Salt Lake City, Utah: Eborn Books, 2011).
Abram Kanof, Jewish Ceremonial Art And Religious Observance, (New York: Harry N. Abrams). Anna D. Kartsonis, Anastasis, The Making of An Image, (Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press, 1986). Charles Francis Potter, (Rev. & Dr.), The Lost Years of Jesus Revealed, From the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag-Hammadi discoveries, (Greenwhich, Conn.: A Fawcett Gold Medal Book, Fawcett Publications, Inc., 1958, 1962). Potter, Did Jesus Write This Book? A Study of The Book of the Secrets of Enoch, Reappraising it in the light of the Qumran, Chenoboskion, and other recently discovered manuscripts and papyri. (Greenwhich, Conn.: A Fawcett Crest Book, 1965, 1967). Craig Harbison, The Last Judgment in Sixteenth Century Northern Europe, (New York, U.S.A., and London, England: Garland Pub. Inc., 1976).

http://restoredgospelevidences.blogspot.com/2011/03/evidences-that-historic-biblical.html

Darell Thorpe, Ye Are Gods.... Children of the Most High.

http://restoredapologetics.blogspot.com/ scroll down to art works.

http://drivetimelivearchivespromossources.blogspot.com/ scroll down to article: Passover, Easter & Garment Types of Deification in the Resurrection (Easter Sunday, 4-8-2012). See art works, sources & comments.

 

[St_Worm2]

There is no such thing as space with nothing in it. The galaxies are made from matter that already existed. God rearranged the matter into what we have today.

Hi Fatboys, once again, here are a few Scripture verses to consider concerning your statements above.

"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth" Gen 1:1

"Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever Thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, Thou art God." Psalm 90:2

"All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." Jn 1:3

"[Abraham] believed God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist." Rom 4:17

"By Him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities; all things were created by Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." Col 1:16-17

"By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible." Heb 11:3​

God is omnipresent. He is transcendent and is from everlasting, IOW, He existed before space/time and is therefore outside of the space/time He created. Since the Creation however, He is also immanent, IOW, He exists within time/space as well. Again, He is omnipresent.

The Bible tells us that God created the universe and everything in it, things visible AND invisible, and that by His word alone He brought into being that which did not exist.

According to the Bible, God made ALL things, which includes the matter He used to make the universe. He also created the heavenly host, as well the souls of men. Apart from Him, NOTHING came into being that has come into being.

I asked this question a few posts back and I will ask it again now. LDS official teaching is diametrically opposed to much of the Bible's clear, didactic teaching. I know you claim it as one of your holy books, but since you guys so clearly disagree with it, what's the point of that?

Yours and His,
David

"Worthy art Thou, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor
and power; for Thou didst create all things, and because
of Thy will they existed, and were created.”
Rev 4:11​

 

[Robban]

Though deification is not an obvious expounded upon doctrine or belief in Jewish sects, there seems to be possible hints to beliefs held anciently. Some Jewish writings speak of how the holy & pious ones would obtain immortality. The Holy One, in the future, in the world to come, will reveal the Name with which new heavens & a new earth can be created for pious ones would be able to create new worlds by that name. Every pious one would inherit 340 worlds. Some Jews, such as Rabbi Saadia, was of the opinion that in the resurrection there would be some who would have wives. The same source also is said to tell of "Maimonides" who lived during the same time as the Kabbalists, was of the opinion that the family life would continue in the realms to come, or in the resurrection. Children would be begotten in the resurrection. In the Dead Sea Scrolls translated by Chaim Rabin, in the Damascus Document 2:7ff, we read of those who's descendants or "seed" would fill the universe. Many Jewish mystical text are said to presuppose that humans can become divine & dispose of the powers of God. In some texts, Enoch was deified into a "little Yahweh," upon his ascension into heaven. Other texts say how He was eventually carried to the 7th heaven were he saw God's throne of glory and the glory of the hosts of angels. The archangel Michael divested him of his earthly robes, anointed him with oil, and clothed him in the raiment of God's glory, and thus he became like one of the glorious inhabitants of the celestial regions.

Goodenough says that there was an ancient Jewish teaching that the patriarchs advanced to the spiritual stage where they assumed the garments of light and became saviors, saviors of their fellows.

While commenting on the Book of Enoch, R. H. Charles says that the righteous Jew believed that in the hereafter, life will be a constant progress from light to light as we become companions to the hosts of heaven.

These garments of light, also became part of early to later Christian mysteries, in which baptismal robes, often white, symbolic of purity, having been cleansed of the spots of sins. They are also symbolic of the resurrected body, baptism being a ritualistic type of Christ descent into death, his descent into the underworld, & buried with Christ, raised up with Christ in the resurrection. Thus, in being resurrected the soul is clothed in a glorious body, which the garment represents. It's also part of the heavenly coronation ceremonies that the Virgin Mary & others pass through in art works, on their way towards deification. Or souls passing through into paradise, greeted by St. Peter, or angels or other saints, who greet them & welcome them into paradise with different types of hand & wrist grasping. They are then clothed in garments or heavenly robes to cover their nakedness. A theme often written of by early to later Christian fathers lecturing on the holy mysteries. David's psalms are also part of the ancient temple themes & coronation ceremonies too, which have deification themes in them as well. The early Christians' versions of deification were derived in part from their Jewish heritage, & said to be restored by Christ, because the Hebrews had fallen into apostasy, like Christendom would later. An apostasy is where no more prophets are heard amongst them, writing what would be later considered scriptures. An apostasy is where the spiritual gifts also fade out & doctrines & rituals become legendized myths & traditions. The doctrine of deification, theosis, perfection or becoming divine: These themes were also subjected to the changes in what God, or the gods & goddesses were said to be like in their natures, forms, relationships to humans, & even family organizations, & appearances. Studies show that earlier Jewish sects, like later Christians, changed their beliefs of what the gods & goddesses were said to be like. Eventually, setting for non-human, non-shaped, non-physical types of explanations for God's nature, even though Christ, it was argued, still had a resurrected body, (as in the case with historic Christendom). As these polemical settings changed how the divine Parents were to be looked upon, so also did these dogmas eventually change what was believed humans could become in being deified, or becoming gods or goddesses. In Christ's time, there were those who wanted to stone Christ for being "a man" making himself as a god. He cites the law to show that the concept was written there. There are those who have done studies on this to show the concepts of deification were in such writings as the Psalms. See sources below.

Sources: John 10:28-39. The Writings of the Rabbis & Other Important Discoveries, by Joshua Moses Bennett, 1990, p.27, The Talmud (General Collection), Doct.#46, citing Raphael Patai, p.251). See: Also: D&C 76:58; 132:19-20. Moses 1:33, 35; 7:30; The Gospel of the Great Spirit, by Joshua Moses Bennett, 1900 Morning Star Pub. p.534-5, Appendix G; Ancient Texts & Mormonism, Eugene Seaich, 1983, p.47, notes, p.132; Seed = descendants, or off-spring, children; See also: Ancient Israel Myths & Legends, by Angelo S. Rappopport, 1987, Bonanza Books, N.Y., Vol.1, p.23, & note 1. Charles and Morfill, The Secrets of Enoch; Offenders For A Word, (How Anti-Mormons Play Word Games to Attack the Latter-day Saints), by Prof. Daniel C. Peterson & Stephen D. Ricks, 1992, Pub. by Aspen Books, S.L.C. Ut., p.78, see also notes 243-4, p.222, Peter Hayman, "Monotheism-- A Misused Word in Jewish Studies?" Journal of Jewish Studies 42 (Spring 1991): 4-5; cf. 11-12; Alan F. Segal's Paul the Convert: The Apostolate & Apostasy of Saul the Pharisee. New Haven: Yale, 1990, 34-71; cf. 22; The Collected Works of Huge Nibley, Vol.1, Old Testament And Related Studies, Pub. by F.A.R.M.S, Provo Ut., & DBC., SLC Ut., 1986, p.149-50. Prof. Stephen D. Ricks & LeGrand L. Baker, Who Shall Ascend Into the Hill of the Lord? (Salt Lake City, Utah: Eborn Books, 2011).
Abram Kanof, Jewish Ceremonial Art And Religious Observance, (New York: Harry N. Abrams). Anna D. Kartsonis, Anastasis, The Making of An Image, (Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press, 1986). Charles Francis Potter, (Rev. & Dr.), The Lost Years of Jesus Revealed, From the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag-Hammadi discoveries, (Greenwhich, Conn.: A Fawcett Gold Medal Book, Fawcett Publications, Inc., 1958, 1962). Potter, Did Jesus Write This Book? A Study of The Book of the Secrets of Enoch, Reappraising it in the light of the Qumran, Chenoboskion, and other recently discovered manuscripts and papyri. (Greenwhich, Conn.: A Fawcett Crest Book, 1965, 1967). Craig Harbison, The Last Judgment in Sixteenth Century Northern Europe, (New York, U.S.A., and London, England: Garland Pub. Inc., 1976).

http://restoredgospelevidences.blogspot.com/2011/03/evidences-that-historic-biblical.html

Darell Thorpe, Ye Are Gods.... Children of the Most High.

http://restoredapologetics.blogspot.com/ scroll down to art works.

http://drivetimelivearchivespromossources.blogspot.com/ scroll down to article: Passover, Easter & Garment Types of Deification in the Resurrection (Easter Sunday, 4-8-2012). See art works, sources & comments.

Are you referring to Psalms 82:6?

"Have I not said you are gods?"
This is understood to be a message and warning to judges,
that they not coddle the rich and not oppress the poor.


Gen 3:22b,
".......lest he stretch forth his hand and take also from the tree of Life and eat and live forever."


From a commentry of Rashi,
And if he were to live forever he would be likely to mislead people to follow him and to say,
he too is a deity.

So what you believe in Mormonism is for you and anyone else who wants to believe it I suppose,
but for me, I have no need to go flirting.

 

[St_Worm2]

I realize that it brings comfort and a sense direction to believe that the bible has all the truth and is only Gods word.

The Bible could bring no true comfort or sense of direction if it was not made up completely of God's "breathed" words

Some people have to put a microscope on the words of the bible to force it to imply what they want it to mean.

Likewise, others with presuppositions that do not agree with the Bible look past what it's clearly teaching to try to force it to say what they need it to say

 

[withwonderingawe]

Hi again withwonderingawe, Yahweh NEVER stops being God. Jesus Christ, the Son of God, became the God/man (God with two natures), but He never became simply a man. "The Glory of Israel (YHVH) .. is not a man ..!" 1 Samuel 15:29

I've gotta go, but I hope to be back later to discuss the rest.

Two quick questions for later though:

1) I thought you guys (Mormons) believe men become Gods, 'not' the other way around (Yahweh>man)?
2) Please tell me what "Heavenly Mom" is? Thanks! (it was mentioned earlier in this thread and I've never heard of it)​

Yours and His,
David

Yes we believe we have a Mother in Heaven. Gen 1: 26-27 should read;

“And the Gods said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: …. So God created man in his own image, in the image of the Gods created he him; male and female created he them”

Israel worshiped a Mother Goddesses all the way down to Josiah when he took her symbol out of the Temple. She had over the years become an idol and we believe because of sin our knowledge of her was deliberately taken away. Look how Mary the mother of Jesus is treated. On one hand she is deified and on the other her name is used as a curse word. Our Father protects our Mother from such usage.

Our Father and Mother are one in purpose, power and knowledge. For us there is really four members of the Godhead.

This hymn was written by Eliza R. Snow

O my Father, thou that dwellest
In the high and glorious place,
When shall I regain thy presence
And again behold thy face?
In thy holy habitation,
Did my spirit once reside?
In my first primeval childhood
Was I nurtured near thy side?

For a wise and glorious purpose
Thou hast placed me here on earth
And withheld the recollection
Of my former friends and birth;
Yet ofttimes a secret something
Whispered, "You're a stranger here,"
And I felt that I had wandered
From a more exalted sphere.

I had learned to call thee Father,
Thru thy Spirit from on high,
But, until the key of knowledge
Was restored, I knew not why.
In the heav'ns are parents single?
No, the thought makes reason stare!
Truth is reason; truth eternal
Tells me I've a mother there.

When I leave this frail existence,
When I lay this mortal by,
Father, Mother, may I meet you
In your royal courts on high?
Then, at length, when I've completed
All you sent me forth to do,
With your mutual approbation
Let me come and dwell with you.

We believe both men and women will become as God after all as Paul said we are their offspring. A man I will never achieve godhood with out being sealed to a woman for;

“Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.” 1 Cor 11

 

[RestoredGospelEvidences]

Are you referring to Psalms 82:6?

"Have I not said you are gods?"
This is understood to be a message and warning to judges,
that they not coddle the rich and not oppress the poor.


Gen 3:22b,
".......lest he stretch forth his hand and take also from the tree of Life and eat and live forever."


From a commentry of Rashi,
And if he were to live forever he would be likely to mislead people to follow him and to say,
he too is a deity.

So what you believe in Mormonism is for you and anyone else who wants to believe it I suppose,
but for me, I have no need to go flirting.

What part of the law that Christ makes reference too, is not indicated, at least in the passage of New Testament, John 10:24-39, note verse 34. It could have been Psalms 82:6, or perhaps some other passage: "Let them bring them forth, and shew us what shall happen: let them shew the former things, what they be, that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them; or declare us things for to come. Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together. Behold, ye are of nothing, and your work of nought: an abomination is he that chooseth you." (Isaiah 41:22-24).

At any point, what ever passage Christ had in mind, it seems from the situation in John 10:24-39, that Christ cites the law in order to point out that even though he was looked upon as being just "a man" who makes himself "God,": That very concept, thought to be considered "blasphemy" by the Jews about to stone Christ, was still written in the law as a valid concept. Which was why Christ made reference to it, as if to say: "Hold off on the rock throwing! Why would you stone me for what is written in your law?"

At any rate, Psalm 82, was used by numerous early to later Christians who followed Christ's example, (if that was the passage he had in mind), & understood him to be citing the passage in defense of the doctrine of deification. This was one in many passages that early to later Christians cited as they expounded on their own versions of deification, becoming gods or goddesses.

There are also passages that are no longer in present day bibles, but of which were cited by early Christians, as they expounded on deification. As case in point is: Clement of Alexandria, A.D. 153-193-217, cites, in his Exhortation to the Heathen, from what might be a passage of scripture which we now don’t have in our day. It says: “The saints of the Lord shall inherit the glory of God and His power.” (The Ante-Nicene Fathers, (Grand Rapids, Michigan: T&T Clark, Edinburgh, WM. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., reprinted Oct. 1989), vol. 2, p. 198, Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to the Heathen, chapter 10).

There are some interesting ancient beliefs that the Rabbis & other Jewish writings, traditions & legends passed down, have, which includes such interesting themes as deification of prophets, & hints to the pre-existence of souls, like the chamber of souls, war in heaven, fall of the angels, etc. Even early Christian bibles, some of them, also don't start with just the creation, they start with illustrations & pre-Adam themes, like the council in heaven, war in heaven, the fall of the rebel-angels, & how they would teach the children of men on earth, all kinds of evil ways. The book of Enoch translations are full of such themes too. Is the Book of Enoch considered Jewish scriptures?

Angelo S. Rappoport, Ph. D., Ancient Israel Myths and Legends, (New York: Bonanza Books, 1987), three volumes in one.

Arnold Toynbee, (Editor), The Crucible of Christianity, Judaism, Hellenism and The Historical Background to the Christian Faith, (New York, and Cleveland, World Publishing Company, CR Thames & Hudson, 1969).

Erwin R. Goodenough, Jewish Symbols in the Greco-Roman Period, (Bollingen Series XXXVII, 1964, Pantheon Books). Multiple volume series.

Francis Legge, Forerunners And Rivals Of Christianity, (From 330 B.C. TO 330 A.D.), 2 Volumes as 1, (New Hyde Park, New York: University Books, 1964).

Huge Nibley, Dr. (Series): The Collected Works of Huge Nibley, (Provo and Salt Lake City, Utah: Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies = F.A.R.M.S., and Deseret Book Company). Volume 1: Old Testament and Related Subjects, (1986). Volume 2: Enoch The Prophet, (1986).

Ignazio Mancini, O.F.M., (Historical Survey), Archaeological Discoveries, Relative to the Judaeo-Christians, (Jerusalem: Studium Biblicum Franciscanum, Collection minor #10, Franciscan Printing Press, 1970).

Jacob Neusner, (Editor), Origins of Judaism, Volume III, Part 1, Judaism and Christianity in the First Century, (New York; London: Garland Publishing, 1990). Origins of Judaism, Volume XI, Part 1, The Literature of Formative Judaism: The Midrash-Compilations, Neusner, (Editor), (New York and London: Garland Pub. 1990).

J. Eugene Seaich, The Heavenly Council, Mysteries and Sacred Ordinances, (unpublished research paper).

Joshua Moses Bennett, The Writings of the Rabbis & Other Important Discoveries. (Salt Lake City, Utah: Morning Star, 1990).

Martha Himmelfarb, Tours Of Hell, An Apocalyptic Form in Jewish and Christian Literature, (Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press, 1983).

Peter Hayman, "Monotheism-- A Misused Word in Jewish Studies?" (Journal of Jewish Studies 42 (Spring 1991).

R. H. Charles, Dr., The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament, (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1913).

Richard Laurence, LL.D., (Trans.) The Book of Enoch The Prophet, (Re-issued: Williams & Norgate, 1892).

 

[withwonderingawe]

Hi Fatboys, once again, here are a few Scripture verses to consider concerning your statements above.

"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth" Gen 1:1

"Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever Thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, Thou art God." Psalm 90:2

"All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." Jn 1:3

"[Abraham] believed God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist." Rom 4:17

"By Him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities; all things were created by Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." Col 1:16-17

"By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible." Heb 11:3​

God is omnipresent. He is transcendent and is from everlasting, IOW, He existed before space/time and is therefore outside of the space/time He created. Since the Creation however, He is also immanent, IOW, He exists within time/space as well. Again, He is omnipresent.

The Bible tells us that God created the universe and everything in it, things visible AND invisible, and that by His word alone He brought into being that which did not exist.

According to the Bible, God made ALL things, which includes the matter He used to make the universe. He also created the heavenly host, as well the souls of men. Apart from Him, NOTHING came into being that has come into being.

I asked this question a few posts back and I will ask it again now. LDS official teaching is diametrically opposed to much of the Bible's clear, didactic teaching. I know you claim it as one of your holy books, but since you guys so clearly disagree with it, what's the point of that?

Yours and His,
David

"Worthy art Thou, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor
and power; for Thou didst create all things, and because
of Thy will they existed, and were created.”
Rev 4:11​

1, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth" Gen 1:1

Perhaps our Jewish friends here can explain better than I but the word create bara in Hebrew does not mean to create something from nothing. It means ‘to make fat’. It implies ‘to gather in’ as a man builds a ship, he gathers in the supplies he needs. Gen 1 is an opening announcement that God made the earth fat or enlarged it and here’s how he did it.

The earth was a rock with water on it and being a closed system it was void of life. God opened the system by saying ‘let there be light’ and the elements obeyed his command and life began to form.

2, "Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever Thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, Thou art God." Psalm 90:2

Let’s look at the whole passage

“1 Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place/refuge in all generations/ revolution of time
2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting/vanishing point to everlasting/vanishing point, thou art God.
3 Thou turnest man to destruction/dust; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.”

The Hebrew word `owlam never meant the way we interpret it today ‘a time without end’ but simply meant a time unknown , a time veiled from our knowledge.

This passage teaches us of our pre-earth life. Yahweh has always been our refuge even before the earth was brought forth. He sends us here and wishes us to return to him.

3, "All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." Jn 1:3

The word ‘things’ does not appear in the actual text, you’re suppose to know what He made by the context of the passage.

“All were made by him; and without him was not any made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.”

All men were made by him.

If we leave in ‘things’ the passage implies some things were not made but existed.

4 "[Abraham] believed God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist." Rom 4:17

Now this verse must be understood in the terms of Greek metaphysics. It is not about the creation at all, it is written to the Romans who were steeped in Greek metaphysics.

The word for word translation is; God, the (one) making live the dead, and calling the things not being as being.

To the Hellenized Romans the word “being” had a specific meaning, it was the one true reality where God dwells. “not being” was the sensory world which men perceive but the Greeks believed to be an illusion. My desk is ‘not being’ it is an illusion. Paul was saying that concept is wrong the God of Abraham “declares that the sensory universe is reality”, my desk is very real. (How Greek Philosophy Corrupted the Christian Concept of God, Hopkins)

Knowing this one must rethink the idea that God lives in some sort of state which transcends space and time. God may control space and time but he does not live in some Pleroma.


5, "By Him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities; all things were created by Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." Col 1:16-17

Once again the word ‘things” in not actually in the passage and one must by reading the verses to understand what things Paul was talking about Jesus created.

The word 'invisible' there does not mean un-seeable but simply unseen. So Jesus planned all the kingdoms and rulers which governor the world. He said as much in Daniel as he goes through the various kingdoms which will rise up and be destroyed until the end of the earth.

6 "By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible." Heb 11:3?

This passage again is a refutation of Greek metaphysics. The words “what is seen” means the world which men see with their eyes. I know that seems obvious but it’s an important point.

“Which are visible” (NASB) comes from the Greek word phenomenon the word Plato used to indicate the world is an apparition. The word is negated in the verse meaning the passages is denying the phenomenal nature of “what is seen”, ie the sensible world. Thus, the passage teaches that the world of the senses, the real world which men live in…is not … an illusion. It could be translated this way;

“ By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the command of God so that what men see with their eyes is not an illusion” (Hopkins)

I love Richard R. Hopkins, he really goes though all the different verses and explains the original intent.

 

[granpa]

It has been said of the critics of the LDS faith that it is blasphemy to think that man could be god. They claim that to do so would some how take away from the glory of God. If man were able to reach perfection over eons of time wouldn't that add to the glory of God as this person continues to worship God through the eternities?

Mortals can become kings or priests but never gods

 

[Robban]

What part of the law that Christ makes reference too, is not indicated, at least in the passage of New Testament, John 10:24-39, note verse 34. It could have been Psalms 82:6, or perhaps some other passage: "Let them bring them forth, and shew us what shall happen: let them shew the former things, what they be, that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them; or declare us things for to come. Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together. Behold, ye are of nothing, and your work of nought: an abomination is he that chooseth you." (Isaiah 41:22-24).

At any point, what ever passage Christ had in mind, it seems from the situation in John 10:24-39, that Christ cites the law in order to point out that even though he was looked upon as being just "a man" who makes himself "God,": That very concept, thought to be considered "blasphemy" by the Jews about to stone Christ, was still written in the law as a valid concept. Which was why Christ made reference to it, as if to say: "Hold off on the rock throwing! Why would you stone me for what is written in your law?"

At any rate, Psalm 82, was used by numerous early to later Christians who followed Christ's example, (if that was the passage he had in mind), & understood him to be citing the passage in defense of the doctrine of deification. This was one in many passages that early to later Christians cited as they expounded on their own versions of deification, becoming gods or goddesses.

There are also passages that are no longer in present day bibles, but of which were cited by early Christians, as they expounded on deification. As case in point is: Clement of Alexandria, A.D. 153-193-217, cites, in his Exhortation to the Heathen, from what might be a passage of scripture which we now don’t have in our day. It says: “The saints of the Lord shall inherit the glory of God and His power.” (The Ante-Nicene Fathers, (Grand Rapids, Michigan: T&T Clark, Edinburgh, WM. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., reprinted Oct. 1989), vol. 2, p. 198, Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to the Heathen, chapter 10).

There are some interesting ancient beliefs that the Rabbis & other Jewish writings, traditions & legends passed down, have, which includes such interesting themes as deification of prophets, & hints to the pre-existence of souls, like the chamber of souls, war in heaven, fall of the angels, etc. Even early Christian bibles, some of them, also don't start with just the creation, they start with illustrations & pre-Adam themes, like the council in heaven, war in heaven, the fall of the rebel-angels, & how they would teach the children of men on earth, all kinds of evil ways. The book of Enoch translations are full of such themes too. Is the Book of Enoch considered Jewish scriptures?

Angelo S. Rappoport, Ph. D., Ancient Israel Myths and Legends, (New York: Bonanza Books, 1987), three volumes in one.

Arnold Toynbee, (Editor), The Crucible of Christianity, Judaism, Hellenism and The Historical Background to the Christian Faith, (New York, and Cleveland, World Publishing Company, CR Thames & Hudson, 1969).

Erwin R. Goodenough, Jewish Symbols in the Greco-Roman Period, (Bollingen Series XXXVII, 1964, Pantheon Books). Multiple volume series.

Francis Legge, Forerunners And Rivals Of Christianity, (From 330 B.C. TO 330 A.D.), 2 Volumes as 1, (New Hyde Park, New York: University Books, 1964).

Huge Nibley, Dr. (Series): The Collected Works of Huge Nibley, (Provo and Salt Lake City, Utah: Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies = F.A.R.M.S., and Deseret Book Company). Volume 1: Old Testament and Related Subjects, (1986). Volume 2: Enoch The Prophet, (1986).

Ignazio Mancini, O.F.M., (Historical Survey), Archaeological Discoveries, Relative to the Judaeo-Christians, (Jerusalem: Studium Biblicum Franciscanum, Collection minor #10, Franciscan Printing Press, 1970).

Jacob Neusner, (Editor), Origins of Judaism, Volume III, Part 1, Judaism and Christianity in the First Century, (New York; London: Garland Publishing, 1990). Origins of Judaism, Volume XI, Part 1, The Literature of Formative Judaism: The Midrash-Compilations, Neusner, (Editor), (New York and London: Garland Pub. 1990).

J. Eugene Seaich, The Heavenly Council, Mysteries and Sacred Ordinances, (unpublished research paper).

Joshua Moses Bennett, The Writings of the Rabbis & Other Important Discoveries. (Salt Lake City, Utah: Morning Star, 1990).

Martha Himmelfarb, Tours Of Hell, An Apocalyptic Form in Jewish and Christian Literature, (Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press, 1983).

Peter Hayman, "Monotheism-- A Misused Word in Jewish Studies?" (Journal of Jewish Studies 42 (Spring 1991).

R. H. Charles, Dr., The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament, (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1913).

Richard Laurence, LL.D., (Trans.) The Book of Enoch The Prophet, (Re-issued: Williams & Norgate, 1892).

One thing at a time.

What do you put into the word, "god/s"?

What kind of picture does it conjure up for you what kind of picture do you think it conjures up for others?

 

[LoAmmi]

1, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth" Gen 1:1

Perhaps our Jewish friends here can explain better than I but the word create bara in Hebrew does not mean to create something from nothing. It means ‘to make fat’. It implies ‘to gather in’ as a man builds a ship, he gathers in the supplies he needs. Gen 1 is an opening announcement that God made the earth fat or enlarged it and here’s how he did it.

The earth was a rock with water on it and being a closed system it was void of life. God opened the system by saying ‘let there be light’ and the elements obeyed his command and life began to form.

As far as I'm aware the word means create or shape when it's a verb. I think you guys are pretty creative with all this, but I'm going to trust the 2000+ years of Jewish understanding of Genesis when compared to the few hundred years of another sect that's decided we were wrong. We don't believe HaShem stumbled upon some lifeless rock and decided to create something of it as I would if I found parts in my garage. He created it all. Otherwise He is still part of His creation, and that is obviously not what we believe.

 

[drstevej]

Our Father and Mother are one in purpose, power and knowledge. For us there is really four members of the Godhead.

Let me thank you for being willing to say what other Mormons have been unwilling to say.

Is She worthy of worship? Should we add the other offspring of the Heavenly Parents to the Godhead?
Is She worthy of praise? If so, why do so few Mormons praise her in these forums?

I look forward to your answers. I would like to sort out LDS thinking on this.

 

[Jane_Doe]

I would like to sort out LDS thinking on this.

I doubt that's your real intention.

 

[Job8]

I doubt that's your real intention.

Let's assume that that is not his real intention. The question still remains, and should be answered to establish the claims of the church that calls itself the only true Christian church in the whole wide world.

 

[Job8]

Mortals can become kings or priests but never gods

And that coming from a Buddhist. What about Bodhisattva (Gautama Buddha), who is literally worshiped as a god in Mahayana Buddhism? Of course, Buddhists -- when challenged -- have the same excuse as those who worship Mary: "No we don't really worship (but we worship all the same. Call it veneration, even though the masses do not play these semantic games").