Man evolved equal?

[Redemptions]

So don't kick it off with a logically inconsistent proposition then!

The point is is that there are others who hold the proposition. It is them I wish to speak to on the matter.

 

[Redemptions]

Not with you, you sound racist for bringing this up, and you haven't addressed how you think religion treats people as more equal than evolutionary theory does.

Why would I be racist? I hold that everybody is equal. Read what I wrote about theism holding all people to be equal. And then notice that I am a theist by looking at the symbol underneath my name. From this you can draw the conclusion that I hold everybody to be equal. See how that works?

Christian theology teaches that we are all equal in Gods eyes. My some "Christians" have not behaved in this manner...but that does not change the actual dogma.

Many secularists and atheists forget that our entire basis for democracy – that each person should have equal voice and equal rights – is based upon the fact that God created us equally in this regard. If God did not create us and endow us with these rights, if there is no higher law, then we have nothing to base our idea of equality on. Certainly evolution and nature taken by itself says quite the opposite: That we are unequal. Some are created stronger and smarter than others. It is they who destroy, devour, and dictate as they please in this world.

 

[Redemptions]

Yes it does. And what else can it do? When you start with the assumption of ultimate moral authority, it is hard to preach anything but superiority.

Actually Christianity teaches that we are all equal in sin and that death is the great equalizer. Christians are Christians because they know that they sin. Christians (those who understand their theology and actually live it) know that they are just as guilty as any other sinner.

Superiority, is the exact opposite of Christian morality. Superiority falls under the category of pride. Pride is the deadliest of sins. It is the complete anti-god state of mind. One cannot see what is above him when he is looking down on everything.

 

[Gadarene]

Why would I be racist? I hold that everybody is equal. Read what I wrote about theism holding all people to be equal. And then notice that I am a theist by looking at the symbol underneath my name. From this you can draw the conclusion that I hold everybody to be equal. See how that works?

Christian theology teaches that we are all equal in Gods eyes. My some "Christians" have not behaved in this manner...but that does not change the actual dogma.

Many secularists and atheists forget that our entire basis for democracy – that each person should have equal voice and equal rights – is based upon the fact that God created us equally in this regard. If God did not create us and endow us with these rights, if there is no higher law, then we have nothing to base our idea of equality on. Certainly evolution and nature taken by itself says quite the opposite: That we are unequal. Some are created stronger and smarter than others. It is they who destroy, devour, and dictate as they please in this world.

Wrong. Competition is one means of survival. Cooperation is another - and given we are a social species, there is nothing unusual about that.

 

[Redemptions]

Wrong. Competition is one means of survival. Cooperation is another - and given we are a social species, there is nothing unusual about that.

Thank you for your thoughts. You do not hold that we are all equal?

 

[Gadarene]

Thank you for your thoughts. You do not hold that we are all equal?

I do.

 

[Redemptions]

Another thing I should state is that it does no good to explain to me how certain societies have held positions of equality. Because in my eyes, these people live in the same world that we do, under the same creator. So even if they do not worship the same as I do, they still exist in a world created by The Lord and have thus been influenced in some way by His morals. So by showing that other societies have had equality just further proves my point for me. For it is my submission that they could not have held a position of true equality for all if they did not exist in a world where a loving creator revealed morals to us in certain indirect ways. But they do hold people as equal. This is exactly my point.

 

[Gadarene]

Another thing I should state is that it does no good to explain to me how certain societies have held positions of equality. Because in my eyes, these people live in the same world that we do, under the same creator. So even if they do not worship the same as I do, they still exist in a world created by The Lord and have thus been influenced in some way by His morals. So by showing that other societies have had equality just further proves my point for me. For it is my submission that they could not have held a position of true equality for all if they did not exist in a world where a loving creator revealed morals to us in certain indirect ways. But they do hold people as equal. This is exactly my point.

Alternatively, maybe you are simply being influenced by their gods.

 

[Redemptions]

Many of you have accurately pointed out that certain Christians certainly do no behave as if they are equal and in fact act superior. This is true. Realize that they are acting like this because they are idiots. It is not because Christ taught us that we are better than anybody. In fact, Christ spent the majority of his time with outlaws and prostitutes etc. The Christians who act un-Christian do not represent the theology of the religion, but are confused. They are indeed sinning.

 

[Redemptions]

Alternatively, maybe you are simply being influenced by their gods.

Right. Or at any rate, a moral creator. My premise was not a direct argument for the reality of the Abrahamic God. But it could be considered a starting point I suppose if I wanted to take that route. But Im not in the mood to write any novels today

 

[Golden Yak]

Christian theology teaches that we are all equal in Gods eyes. My some "Christians" have not behaved in this manner...but that does not change the actual dogma.

In what sense are we equal, given as you say later that some are created stronger, smarter, etc. than others?

Many secularists and atheists forget that our entire basis for democracy – that each person should have equal voice and equal rights – is based upon the fact that God created us equally in this regard. If God did not create us and endow us with these rights, if there is no higher law, then we have nothing to base our idea of equality on.

What exactly does God base the idea of our equality on, since as you say people are created differently. Is it simply our origins? We're all created and all other factors are not considered? Why not? If that's it, we could declare equality because everyone was born, and just ignore other factors.

Is it that God just wants everyone to be treated a certain way because he likes the idea, and again all other factors are ignored? If so, is there any reason man cannot like the same idea and operate the same way, even if there is no God?

Certainly evolution and nature taken by itself says quite the opposite: That we are unequal. Some are created stronger and smarter than others. It is they who destroy, devour, and dictate as they please in this world.

Is there any reason why mankind has to use that as a basis for anything at all, let alone society and morality? If it's a fact, it's a fact - but we don't have to do anything beyond acknowledge that.

 

[Gadarene]

Also, I don't recall secularists/atheists ever appealing to nature to justify equality. That is pure strawman.

 

[Redemptions]

Also, I don't recall secularists/atheists ever appealing to nature to justify equality. That is pure strawman.

Exactly. So to what do they appeal to then?

Again.....there are people who hold these views. It is to these people that my question is addressed. You guys seem compelled to believe that I'm using this as some sort of apologetic argument. The question concerns the philosophy of an individual (and there are plenty of them) who believes that there is no God, yet simultaneously holds the view that we are all intrinsically equal. There is no straw-man, because such individuals do exist. I couldn't care less if most or all atheists hold this view or not. Some people do hold this view. It is to them that my curiosity is directed.

The idea of equality is something that is now a form of universal political correctness.

 

[Redemptions]

I don't think I'm conveying myself properly here. I can't seem to word this right to make you guys see what I mean. And that's my fault. So nevermind lol. Peace in the Middle East.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Why would I be racist? I hold that everybody is equal. Read what I wrote about theism holding all people to be equal. And then notice that I am a theist by looking at the symbol underneath my name. From this you can draw the conclusion that I hold everybody to be equal. See how that works?

Christian theology teaches that we are all equal in Gods eyes. My some "Christians" have not behaved in this manner...but that does not change the actual dogma.

Many secularists and atheists forget that our entire basis for democracy – that each person should have equal voice and equal rights – is based upon the fact that God created us equally in this regard. If God did not create us and endow us with these rights, if there is no higher law, then we have nothing to base our idea of equality on. Certainly evolution and nature taken by itself says quite the opposite: That we are unequal. Some are created stronger and smarter than others. It is they who destroy, devour, and dictate as they please in this world.

Then why was it ok for a Hebrew individual to own a Hebrew slave and not for an Egyptian to own a Hebrew slave? If all people are created equal in the bible, slavery shouldn't be in it.

 

[Golden Yak]

I don't think I'm conveying myself properly here. I can't seem to word this right to make you guys see what I mean. And that's my fault. So nevermind lol. Peace in the Middle East.

No no, you've been clear. Do you understand the replies?

 

[MehGuy]

Of course we're not equal. The more intelligent man has a better chance of making a decent living, while the lesser intelligent man will most likely slave away at a low paying job. Good looking people have a better chance with promotions at jobs and being treated better overall.

It is really disturbing when you think about it..

 

[Redemptions]

Then why was it ok for a Hebrew individual to own a Hebrew slave and not for an Egyptian to own a Hebrew slave? If all people are created equal in the bible, slavery shouldn't be in it.

It is wrongly assumed that any reference to slaves or slavery in the Bible necessarily refers to the New World slavery type of the plantations. This is not the case. Most were indentured servants. Which was a mutually contracted servitude into which the individual entered voluntarily. They sold themselves into the ownership of a person to whom they owed money or a somebody who paid off the debts which they owed to another, and paid off their debt with service. The individual was considered the property of their master because they could not leave until it was paid off.

Sometimes the poor would volunteer themselves as servants to wealthy families or people in order to obtain for themselves a superior standard of living or perhaps a different sort of perk.

In the ancient world poor father might sell his daughter into a well-to-do family in order to ensure her future security. The sale presumes a marriage to the master or his son.

Most types of slavery there did not exhibit the type of characteristics associated with "New World" slavery. Such as being treated as property and commodities or their use exclusively as labor and lack of freedom.

Freedom in the ancient Near East had a relative, not an absolute meaning, as the ambiguity of the term for "slave" in the regions shows. "Slave" could be used to refer to a subordinate in the social ladder. Thus the subjects of a king were called his "slaves," even though they were free citizens. Translation is often an inexact science.

And it is important to note that there are things which the Bible records which it does not approve of, as it is a book of History. Some figurative and metaphorical, some historical.

In any case, it does not say that it is okay to treat a servant poorly. And if they were being treated poorly at any point then it was right for them to leave. Just as the Israelites fled from Egypt. It is actually debated what sort of slaves the Israelites were in Egypt. Some think that they were of the indentured servant type, some say it was more like the modern day type which we associate with plantations etc. What is clear is that they were mistreated, so they left.


"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3:28

 

[Gadarene]

And now we have the objective moralist engaging in slavery apologetics. Being in debt to someone of course means all your choices are free, and they could only beat them till it really hurt and not to death u guise! Yeahhhh, I'll pass

 

[Redemptions]

No no, you've been clear. Do you understand the replies?

Apparently I've been clear in conveying a point other than the exact one that I had in mind. That's readily obvious to me.

Let's see if I can understand you better my friend. What does it mean to you to say that all people are equal? Equal in what ways? And why do you feel that we are equal?