Male Submission in marriage?

[wonder111]

i know this is a little off topic sorry, but would God have made the physical attributes of man and woman after they were both made? I mean what would the point be of Adam having male genitalia if there wasn't a woman yet? I know this is a science and creation question, ignore if you want

 

[katelyn]

God made humans, he made them male and female. He fashioned them from the very same root or source -- the common identity of bone and flesh (Genesis 2:23) is climaxed with the concept of mutuality in the "one flesh" language (Genesis 2:24)

Okay...then what point do you think Paul was trying to get at when he said, "For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church...?"

So far we have had two different interpretations on this thread:

1. He meant "head" meaning a leadership role.
2. He meant "source" or "origin."

In an earlier post, you implied that when kephale appears in Biblical texts, it refers to the physical head. But the husband is obviously not physically the head of the wife.

And it sounds like you don't think that man is the source of woman...?

So how do you interpret that verse?

 

[suzie]

Katelyn-

No, I didnt say that man isnt the source of the woman. I said that they were male and female concurrently.

 

[katelyn]

Katelyn-

No, I didnt say that man isnt the source of the woman. I said that they were male and female concurrently.

Sorry, I still don't get it. How were they made concurrently if woman came from man? Concurrently means at the same time, but they weren't made at the same time if woman came from man.

 

[katelyn]

Sorry for so many posts, but I'm trying to understand what you are saying. So (please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just looking for clarification) it looks like you are saying that since God made man and woman to be one, that means that there is no leader in the union of woman and man.

But aren't we also supposed to be one with Christ? Yet Christ is still our leader, correct?

 

[suzie]

Kate-

God created 'adam--or humanity. He separated the female and male identities, thus forming woman out of man, making male and female. The point was that this was unlike any other relationship. They came from the very same source..... It was meant to cement the mutuality, not create hierarchy. Together as "one flesh" they constitute and complete what it means to be genetically a human being. so necessary are man and woman to each other that it transcends every other human loyalty. "God created man in his own image" creating "male and female" concurrently. (Genesis 1:27)
A paradoxical singularity and plurality of being .... "God created him; male and female created he them"....this corresponds to a similar reciprocity in God's being "Let us make man...he created him/them" (1:26-27)
We are meant to be a fellowship within ourselves, like God, however unlike God, our internal duality is defined by gender.

Hope that helps some.

We are supposed to be one with Christ. Christ is our Creator. His Spirit dwells within us and through Him we are able to have eternal life. He is the very source of eternal life. We are to worship and glorify Him.
Remember the ephesians verses regarding husband and wives are pointing out unity, not authority.

Woman was not made in the image of man, but with man in the image of God.

 

[Whitestone]

suzie as much as I do seem to be disagreeing with you. I do appreciate your arguments and statements, they have challenged my understanding of scripture and have forced me to be a more edjucated Christian, for that I am grateful.

In my readings I stumbled across 1 Cor 12. The impression I get from reading 1 Cor 12 is that God did create people with certain gifts, roles, and responsibilities that are all still part of the body of Christ.

When I go back and look at Eph 5:22-33 I get the same feeling that we are both equal in the eyes of Christ but with diferent roles and responsibilities.

I ask this question, do you think that husbands and wives have different roles and responsibilities in a marriage?

Whitestone

 

[suzie]

I believe that God gifts us as He sees fit. We are not given gifts because we are male or female but because we are Christians. I believe the Bible teaches that each of us are gifted individually and are to use our gifts to serve and lift up each other to build unity and harmony in our home. We do that in different ways because we are unique individuals.

I am gifted differently from my husband. We compliment each other. I appreciate his view from a different perspective and vice versa. We both are gifted leaders, yet we lead in very different ways.

I am not sure just what "role" you are looking for within marriage? My husband and I have managed to do what needs done at the time to benefit or family and home.

We both work and when our children were little we worked opposite shifts ( I am an RN) so that we could be with our children. We have shared most chores, however some of them one of us prefers over the other. It just never came down to "we have to divy this up equally" nor did it come to "you are the one to do this"....
We both feel the responsibility to serve where needed.

However, roles seem to come to decision making somehow. As I have shared in the past, we make decisions together seeking God's will. If one of us do not agree with the other, we keep praying on it. More than not, its becomes "what do you think God wants or would be best" and we go over the pros and cons and what we both think God is saying. There are times when one of us trusts the other in their decision because they just know more about it.

I came to knowledge regarding women in Scripture because I was leading a ministry and actually on the adimininstrative team of a church plant that was unpastored. We had an interim pastor that lived 2 hours away. I was challenged by someone in the church as to if a woman should be leading in this way. Thus, I began a serious study as to women in their "role" biblically. I really didnt go into it fully convinced one way or another and attempted to gain a balanced view from both "sides" I must say, I never realized what a hot topic this is in Christian circles. It has caused division in the SBC due to their Baptist Faith and Message regarding this issue. I take seriously my responsibility in what I say and that I will be accountable for what I know and what I do or fail to do regarding leadership and women.
However, I am fully convinced that throughout Scripture God shows us His intent is for equality and unity in Christ in our lives, our marriage, our church. We are all encouraged to be all we can be for Christ. To desire all the gifts and as we mature to be fully used for His kingdom. It is all about Christ.

 

[Whitestone]

Very well said.

The roles I am referring to are those for husbands and wives and the different instructions given to both in Eph 5:22-33. I am very confidant God put those instructions in there for a reason. What is your opinion of why God put Eph 5:22-33 in scripture?

Please do not think I am trying to kick a dead horse, and my opinion on a wife's submission in marriage is between her and God. In all honesty our marriages seem very alike, in both spouses giving 100%, putting eachothers needs before their own, and most of all keeping Christ in the center of our marriage.

My concern is that some members on these boards have issues with Eph 5:22-33 and want to ignore it or find some way to justify disregarding it. This is the part that bothers me greatly. Unless a law was over ridden by the New Convenant in Jesus or 100% in no way applicable, we as Christians out of love for Christ should do our best to adhere to His commands.

Whitestone

 

[Archivist]

This all comes back to a matter of interpretation of Scripture. I certainly agree with the interpretation set forth by Suzie--for me that is the correct view when reading the Bible in light of the history and culture of the period in which it was written--but I understand why some would take a more literal view and believe that a wife should submit to the husband in a marriage.

BTW, I understand that during the Middle Ages some interpretated the phrase "male and female He created them" to mean that Adam and Eve each possesed both male and female genitals, and there are painting from the period depicting them as such.

 

[wonder111]

interesting Archivist! thanks for replying to my off question

 

[suzie]

That is interesting archivist. Thanks for that little tidbit. White, I am very sure that this was already discussed in prior discussion in this thread. What specifically are you driving at that hasnt been answered yet?

 

[MominTX]

Submission comes up a lot in arguments between my husband and I..submission isn't the topic we argue about...it's when I do someting wrong and then my husband states, I need to always obey him because he is the head of the house. Ok now I agree that women are supposed to submit to their husbands, but I think of it as kind of like at work. You work for your boss and usually he respects you and you respect him and they respect you - in good working environments anyway. I feel like at my house it's dictatorship and sometimes I feel like a child. I have had friends over who don't even want to bring their husbands around because they're afraid they'll start treating them the same way. I do what my husband tells me to do, but I feel like I'm falling out of love because I almost feel like he's my father instead of a husband.

 

[suzie]

wow mon, that is really unfortunate for you and your husband. He is missing out on the blessing that submitting to the Lord is all about. God never told wifes to obey, submission is something very different. Submitting is voluntarily lifting up and placing others needs ahead of your own in the Christian context. The same is required of the husband however. Whatever submitting it is you are to do , it is to be reciprocal.

Unfortunately your husband suffers from poor self esteem that he needs to dominate and control others (you) to make himself feel important. What he is doing is called abuse mom. There is help out there for you if you are willing. Pray about it.

 

[Whitestone]

My question is what importance do you put on Eph 5:22-33, why were they added in scripture? I have previously asked you who you thought God/Christ delegated as the head of a Christian household, I do not remember seeing a response. I am very curious to your interpretation of why husbands and wives have distinctly different instructions in Eph 5:22-33. Your previous post have impressed me, I understand that head can mean origin, things were different when Paul wrote Eph. But what I have not understood is your perspective on why God put that section of scripture in the bible.

MominTX, I am very sorry your husband has seemed to read the wives instructions in the bible but neglected the husbands. We are taught that Husbands should love their wives like Christ loved the church. I think in 1 Cor 13 we are told how to love. My suggestion, if or when your husband brings up the wives submitting thing again, ask him to point out where it is in the bible, then ask him to read you the entire chapter. Bathing wives in the Word is one of the instuctions given to husbands, so he should not have a problem with it.

I hope this helps.

Whitestone

 

[wonder111]

MominTX, show him the scripture were Christ said he leads by serving. He said that he is not sitting at the head of the table, instead he is serving the others. That is an act of submitting in love

I will pray for you and him nonetheless

 

[MominTX]

He understands he needs to love me, but he feels he does love me....it's just he feels I need to be punished if I do something wrong. I know he has taken the Ephesians verse out of context, I just have to get the courage to go to counseling. His parents even have seen the way he treats me and they don't like it, but don't want to get involved unless I ask them to. Plus my husband is great for a few days and then we'll have a bad day where he's upset all day. But I'm praying and we'll seek counseling. I know he won't go with me, but I pray he will some day.

 

[Svt4Him]

Why do we just talk about Eph?

From 1 Peter:

Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives, ​

For in this manner, in former times, the holy women who trusted in God also adorned themselves, being submissive to their own husbands,​

From Titus:

that they admonish the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, 5to be discreet, chaste, homemakers, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed.

From Colossians:​

Wives, submit to your own husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.​

From Ephesians:​

​

22Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.​

​

Sorry, all exegesis gymnastics aside, the Bible is very clear. The difference is some think dominance and leadership/headship are the same. Or perhaps G-d just like to say unimportant things over and over again to cause confusion?

 

[Whitestone]

MominTX counseling is denitely a good route. I just have one suggestion.

Does you church have any womens groups, I have heard smaller group settings are great for getting good counsel and support in issues they are struggling with.

I will keep you in my prayers.

Whitestone

 

[sarah marie]

Genesis 3:16
Then he said to the woman, "You will bear children with intense pain and suffering. And though your desire will be for your husband, he will be your master."

I Corinthians 11:3
But there is one more thing I want you to know: A man is responsible to Christ, a woman is responsible to her husband, and Christ is responsible to God.

7-12
A man should not wear anything on his head when worshipping, for man is God's glory, made in God's own image, but woman is the glory of man. For the first man didn't come from woman, but the first woman came from man. And man was not made for woman's benefit, but woman was made for man. So a woman should wear a covering on her head as a sign of authority because the angels are watching.

But in relationships among the Lord's people, women are not independant of men, and men are not independant of women. For although the first woman came from man, all men have been born from women ever since, and everything comes from God.

I Peter 3:1-7 (a little more than Svt4Him's post)

In the same way, you wives must accept the authority of your husbands, even those who refuse to accept the Good News. Your godly lives will speak to them better than any words. They will be won over by watching your pure, godly behavior.
Don't be concerned about the outward beauty that depends on fancy hairstyles, expensive jewelry, or beautiful clothes. You should be known for the beauty that comes from within, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is so precious to God.
That is the way the holy women of old made themselves beautiful. They trusted God and accepted the authority of thier husbands. For instance, Sarah obeyed her husband, Abraham, when she called him her master. You are her daughters when you do what is right without fear of what your husbands might do.
In the same way, you husbands must give honor to your wives. Treat her with understanding as you live together. She may be weaker than you are, but she is also your equal partner in God's gift of new life. If you don't treat her as you should, your prayers will not be heard.