Male and Female...in the beginning

[Dark_Lite]

According to a history channel documentary

Well there's your first problem. History Channel tends to get kind of "out there" when it comes to certain things. Religion is one of them.

( or was it the Science channel), Genesis 1, where it says God created them male and female was actually the creation of Adam and Lilith - as equals. Adam, however, opposed woman being his equal, and Lilith rebelled and left the Garden to become the first "demon". God then remade woman in Genesis 2 directly from Adam to make sure she would be his inferior.

Anyone else heard this explanation of the differing creation stories?

That explanation really seems to be more like some kind of feminist anachronistic reading of the text, than a valid explanation. Lilith is only vaguely mentioned in the Bible, if she's mentioned at all. Most of the development of her character comes from sources outside the Old Testament.

 

[juvenissun]

Maybe they just needed 4 hands to get the gardening done
There really is no difference in male and female except procreation functions and cultural survival techniques.

The exceptions are critical differences.

If Adam was "both" male and female before the "separation", then the spiritual differences (btw male/female) should not exist. And the procedure of separation should be different (may be take the blood instead of the rib).

To further elaborate, the homosexual behavior would find a good basis in the Bible. (if male and female are "equal", then why not male-and-male? would that be more equal?)

 

[pilgrimage]

The exceptions are critical differences.

If Adam was "both" male and female before the "separation", then the spiritual differences (btw male/female) should not exist. And the procedure of separation should be different (may be take the blood instead of the rib).

To further elaborate, the homosexual behavior would find a good basis in the Bible. (if male and female are "equal", then why not male-and-male? would that be more equal?)

Because God calls it an abomination. Stop trying to blame Eve for something you claim she never heard.

 

[pilgrimage]

*unsubscribe*

 

[Jase]

Jase, why are you seeking the words of man over those of the Lord?

The entire Bible is the words written by man. Just because you're in denial doesn't mean I'm not going to explore and question.

There are myths and there is truth. There are many deceivers in this world and they love to muddy the waters....just as did Satan in the garden. He/they take a truth and then twist it and the direction is twisted away from God.



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haSatan works for God.

 

[Jase]

Well there's your first problem. History Channel tends to get kind of "out there" when it comes to certain things. Religion is one of them.



That explanation really seems to be more like some kind of feminist anachronistic reading of the text, than a valid explanation. Lilith is only vaguely mentioned in the Bible, if she's mentioned at all. Most of the development of her character comes from sources outside the Old Testament.

Correct, her character is a development of Rabbinic writing, but she is mentioned in the Talmud and the Dead Sea Scrolls.

 

[1whirlwind]

ok...

Don't see that this follows, if you have two different Adams in Genesis 1&2 there is no reason to think God made them the same way.

I see no reason to think He would make them differently. Why do you think that could have been the case?

I don't think you take your question far enough, it is not enough to ask what beginning Jesus was talking about, you should ask what creation Jesus was talking about too. Not so much 'was there a second creation after the Gap, but 'what was Jesus talking about being created'? When Jesus said in Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of creation, 'God made them male and female.' he wasn't discussing the heavens and the earth, he was talking about human beings. Jesus was talking about when human were created. Gen 5:2 Male and female he created them, and he blessed them and named them Man when they were created. This is saying that the first human being God created, however he created them, were male and female.

I am asking you to see is what is meant by "heavens and earth."


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[1whirlwind]

So where it does say they were created doesn't fit your theology?

Genesis 5:2
2Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

Why would you ignor the scripture that says they were created?

But I don't ignore it. Adam, mankind, was created male and female. Adam, the particular man, was formed for a specific purpose. [Genesis 5:2] is about mankind, not the man Adam.


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[1whirlwind]

The Genesis creation account is much more than a description of creation. It bears serious consequence to the whole Christian theology. So, if the interpretation of the creation process is different, then some critical interpretations in the following up theology will be different.

Adam is “A” “Man”. If Adam were multiple, then the origin of sin, and the redemption of sin will have different content and meaning.
Eve is taken from Adam. Otherwise, the relationship, role and function of male-female genders will be different.

For example: If “Adam” included male AND female at the beginning, then an apparent consequence is that male and female are “the same” or “equal” in spirit. In fact, we know they are complementary, but are not the same.

Adam was male and female in the beginning...it is written.

Why do you see male/female as not being "equal in spirit?" Where does that come from?


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[1whirlwind]

The exceptions are critical differences.

If Adam was "both" male and female before the "separation", then the spiritual differences (btw male/female) should not exist. And the procedure of separation should be different (may be take the blood instead of the rib).

Eve was taken from Adam. So, Adam was both male and female before the separation.

What spiritual differences?

Do men today have the same number of ribs as women? If the answer is yes then it probably wasn't a rib taken from Adam. The word translates as "curve." Could it be the helix curve, the DNA of Adam to form Eve. Then, she would literally have been...."bone of my bones, flesh of my flesh."

To further elaborate, the homosexual behavior would find a good basis in the Bible. (if male and female are "equal", then why not male-and-male? would that be more equal?)

That's a rather strange conclusion. Am I to assume that you don't consider females to be "equal" to males? May I ask in what way females are inferior or...not equal?


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[1whirlwind]

Because God calls it an abomination. Stop trying to blame Eve for something you claim she never heard.

Genesis 3:6-7,12 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. (12) And the man said, The woman whom Thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.


1 Timothy 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.


The woman was deceived...Adam wasn't and yet he was "with her and he did eat." It makes me wonder why she "was in the transgression" and not Adam. Anyway, the verse tells me there was no need for Satan to deceive Adam. Apparently he just went along with the program. He heard the truth and decided to ignore it. And then....blame God for giving him the woman as he blamed the woman for causing him to partake of the sin.


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[1whirlwind]

The entire Bible is the words written by man. Just because you're in denial doesn't mean I'm not going to explore and question.


haSatan works for God.

Indeed he does work for God. Knowing that, shouldn't we be careful on those we listen to? Explore and question but if it is in conflict with God's account then you must choose.


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[crawfish]

According to a history channel documentary ( or was it the Science channel), Genesis 1, where it says God created them male and female was actually the creation of Adam and Lilith - as equals. Adam, however, opposed woman being his equal, and Lilith rebelled and left the Garden to become the first "demon". God then remade woman in Genesis 2 directly from Adam to make sure she would be his inferior.

Anyone else heard this explanation of the differing creation stories?

That's actually from an ancient Israelite midrash. Such things may have been written but where hardly universally accepted. I've heard it was likely a way for polytheistic Israelites to fit the Canaanite goddess Asheera into Israel's history.

As with many things ancient, we can speculate but we can't be sure.

 

[Assyrian]

The Genesis creation account is much more than a description of creation. It bears serious consequence to the whole Christian theology. So, if the interpretation of the creation process is different, then some critical interpretations in the following up theology will be different.

Adam is “A” “Man”. If Adam were multiple, then the origin of sin, and the redemption of sin will have different content and meaning.

How so? All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and Christ died for all.

Eve is taken from Adam. Otherwise, the relationship, role and function of male-female genders will be different.

Not if you read Genesis as a figurative representation of God's purpose. Of course as someone once pointed out, while Eve came from Adam, every man since has come from a woman.

For example: If “Adam” included male AND female at the beginning, then an apparent consequence is that male and female are “the same” or “equal” in spirit. In fact, we know they are complementary, but are not the same.

I don't know, the first part sounds a bit like Paul Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Certainly we are complementary as husband and wife, but spiritually, in Christ, the distinctions fall away

 

[Assyrian]

I see no reason to think He would make them differently. Why do you think that could have been the case?

I think God created mankind through evolution and the story of making Adam from clay is a parable. It is your interpretation I was discussing. If you see Genesis 1 & 2 as showing the creation of two different Adams, you simply don't know how God created Adam in Genesis 1 because it does not say. You might think maybe God mad those Adams the same way, but it is just. speculation

I am asking you to see is what is meant by "heavens and earth."
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It is how Genesis describes the entire universe. So the creation of the heavens and the earth is the entire creation of the universe. But that is not what we are talking about here. Jesus was talking about people and marriage, God creating mankind male and female, creation in that context refers to the creation of human beings not the whole universe.

 

[1whirlwind]

I think God created mankind through evolution and the story of making Adam from clay is a parable. It is your interpretation I was discussing. If you see Genesis 1 & 2 as showing the creation of two different Adams, you simply don't know how God created Adam in Genesis 1 because it does not say. You might think maybe God mad those Adams the same way, but it is just. speculation

All were Adam...for all were man(kind). In chapter two there was a specific man/Adam formed. I agree that how mankind was created is speculation but, as it is based on the way Adam was formed...it seems to have a solid foundation.

It is how Genesis describes the entire universe. So the creation of the heavens and the earth is the entire creation of the universe. But that is not what we are talking about here. Jesus was talking about people and marriage, God creating mankind male and female, creation in that context refers to the creation of human beings not the whole universe.

He tells us what the heavens are and what the earth is. It isn't the universe He is speaking of....


From the OP:

We can see "the heaven and the earth" as more than our concept of the literal for they are both. They are the natural representing the spiritual.

Psalm 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth.

The heavens are those souls formed by God into whom He breathed "the breath of life; and man became a living soul." [Gen.2:7]


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Psalm 115:16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD's: but the earth hath He given to the children of men.

Psalm 119:89 For ever, O LORD, Thy Word is settled in heaven.

Jesus is Thy Word, His Word is in heaven and He dwells in us...we are the heaven He is in and as the heavens...we are the Lord's.


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2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Isaiah 51:16 And I have put My words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art My people.

Zion is...His people. Zion is...the heavens. He dwells in heaven/His people.
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[Assyrian]

All were Adam...for all were man(kind). In chapter two there was a specific man/Adam formed. I agree that how mankind was created is speculation but, as it is based on the way Adam was formed...it seems to have a solid foundation.

making one woman that way in a completely different chapter is no indication he created all the other woman that way when ther is no mention of it in the chapter you are looking at.

He tells us what the heavens are and what the earth is. It isn't the universe He is speaking of....

From the OP:

I just don't see the relevance of the heavens and earth here, Jesus didn't say anything about them in the verse you were looking at Mark 10:6. He was talking about people marriage and divorce.

 

[1whirlwind]

making one woman that way in a completely different chapter is no indication he created all the other woman that way when ther is no mention of it in the chapter you are looking at.

So...either Eve wasn't human or mankind isn't human? Women are women are women. Different shapes, sizes, colors but still women with the same parts as every other woman.

I just don't see the relevance of the heavens and earth here, Jesus didn't say anything about them in the verse you were looking at Mark 10:6. He was talking about people marriage and divorce.

Okay...just think about it for a while.



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[Assyrian]

So...either Eve wasn't human or mankind isn't human? Women are women are women. Different shapes, sizes, colors but still women with the same parts as every other woman.

Most women aren't made from ribs. Even if you take Gen 2 literally it doesn't mean you have any basis for claiming any other women were made that way.

Okay...just think about it for a while.
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Have done. It's not the first time I have talked about the passage, but if you have a point make about the heavens and the earth, fire ahead.

 

[1whirlwind]

Most women aren't made from ribs. Even if you take Gen 2 literally it doesn't mean you have any basis for claiming any other women were made that way.

Have done. It's not the first time I have talked about the passage, but if you have a point make about the heavens and the earth, fire ahead.

I don't think Eve was made that way either...unless men have one fewer rib than women.

Rib translates as curve. I see a strong possibility of Adam's DNA, the helix curve, being taken from him to form Eve.

Speculation? Yes...but it sounds more resonable than a rib.

The heavens and earth I see as representing us. Those He has called and chosen are those He dwells in. It is also written that He dwells in heaven....so, who is the heaven in which He dwells?

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