Making Saints

[christianmomof3]

I asked a while back about the origin of the practice of praying to "Saints" and no one really knew when it started or why, but we did find out it is not in the Bible and the first recorded instance of it that anyone on this site found was in the 3rd century and one possible quote from the first century. Well, that was not enough information and did not explain why this practice began. So, I found the book "Making Saints" at the library and I read the part about the beginning of Christianity and how the whole "Saint" concept began. I am a bit suprised that no one knew or could share about it. I feel that we should all be responsible for educating ourselves about religious practices that we chose to participate in.

Anyway, here are some things I learned:

• In the beginning, as seen in the NT, all baptised believers were called "saints" which means those who are separated unto God. Most of the early believers were Jews and they saw holiness as a quality shared by the community.
• Christianity quickly spread away from the influence of the Jews and was embraced by others who had other backgrounds and traditions.
• Even in the first generation of Christians, those who were martryerd - who died for their faith, were singled out as being more "special" than others then they began to use the word "saint" only to refer to martryrs. Stephen was the first martryr and his story was similar to that of Christ in his dying and so to be a saint was not only to die for Christ, but one who died like Him. And since Jesus rose again, so it was assumed that the martryrs did too. Due to the extreme persecution of the church in the first 3 centuries, lots of martryrs and thus lots of saints were produced.
• But, since not all of those tortured in the name of Christ died from their torture and although they had confessed their faith publicly, they did not get to die and be martryrs so they came up with another category of saints who were "confessors". They also were venerated at their death as saints. Over time, as martrydom decreased, more ways of becoming saints increased to include those who were missionaries or who helped the poor etc...
• It was believed that the saints were "reborn" at the moment of their death, as Christ was and there were ceremonies remembering the day of their death.
• As early as the 2nd century Christians who venerated saints were accused of idolatry. Apparantly when Polycarp was martryred, the magistrate refused to give the Christians his charred remains because he was afraid they would "abandon the Crucified and worship this man" in His place.
• Just as the body and blood of Christ were believed to be materially present in the bread and wine, the spirits of the saints were believed to dwell in their relics. So, the bodies, clothes and even the instruments that had been used to toruture the saints became venerated as sacred objects with magical powers.
• Each region had it's own local saints and shrines were built at their tombs and Christian families would feast at the saints tombs.
• Several of the church fathers opposed the veneration of the relics because they were given the sort of reverence that should be given to God alone. But the pro-relic faction won.
• Bu 767 the council of Nicaea said that every church must contain an "altar" stone housing the relics of a saint.
• Not all saints were even Christians and some were fictional characters.
• Relics were so important that the church began to practice "translation" or removal of relics from tombs to churches and also "invention" and discovery of remains.
• This caused abuses and in the 9th century there was a corporation that specialized in the discovery, sale and export of relics. Monks stole relics from each other's monasteries because the better the relics, the more famous the monestary.
• The saints were venerated for their holiness, but invoked for their miraculous powers.

 

[Sphinx777]

A saint (from the Latin sanctus) in Christianity is a human being who has been called to holiness. The term is used differently by various denominations, with some, such as the Anglicans, Methodists, and Lutherans distinguishing between Saints and saints. In high-church contexts, such as Roman Catholicism or Anglo-Catholicism, a Saint is generally one to whom has been attributed (and who has generally demonstrated) a high level of holiness and sanctity. In this use, a saint is therefore not simply a believer, but one who has been unusually transformed. On the other hand, many denominations, notably in Protestantism, emphasise the traditional New Testament meaning of the word, preferring to write saint (lower case) to refer to any believer, in continuity with the doctrine of the priesthood of all believers. Some denominations venerate the dead saints, while others vehemently reject this practice.

The use of the term saint is not exclusive to Christianity. In most religious cultures, there are people who have been recognised within that culture as having fulfilled the highest aspirations of religious teaching. In English, the term saint is often used to translate this idea from many world religions.

 

[Thekla]

As I haven't the time and am tired of dealing with the issue, suffice to say the points iterated above to some extent betray a certain bias and include some misinformation.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

As I haven't the time and am tired of dealing with the issue, suffice to say the points iterated above to some extent betray a certain bias and include some misinformation.

yes.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

there are saints and there are Saints. Saints (with a capital letter) are examples of our faith, that we can imitate. They're not worshipped, but venerated. Veneration is not worship.

The reason the Saints' relics, clothes, etc, were venerated was not because they thought there was some sort of magical power in them, or that their spirits dwelled there, but that the Holy Spirit can use them. Like Elisha's bones.

the reason there were ceremonies to remember their deaths was not because it was believed they were resurrected - otherwise their bodies would not be here and we wouldn't have relics! but because that's when they started their new life in Heaven.

VERY early on there are references to asking the Martyrs for intercession..

I could go on and provide links but I have to go work now

Peace

 

[Neriah]

there are saints and there are Saints. Saints (with a capital letter) are examples of our faith, that we can imitate. They're not worshipped, but venerated. Veneration is not worship.

The reason the Saints' relics, clothes, etc, were venerated was not because they thought there was some sort of magical power in them, or that their spirits dwelled there, but that the Holy Spirit can use them. Like Elisha's bones.

the reason there were ceremonies to remember their deaths was not because it was believed they were resurrected - otherwise their bodies would not be here and we wouldn't have relics! but because that's when they started their new life in Heaven.

VERY early on there are references to asking the Martyrs for intercession..

I could go on and provide links but I have to go work now

Peace

Relics kinda remind me of this

And more than ever believers were added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women,
so that they even carried out the sick into the streets and laid them on cots and mats, that as Peter came by at least his shadow might fall on some of them.
Acts 5:14,15

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Relics kinda remind me of this

And more than ever believers were added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women,
so that they even carried out the sick into the streets and laid them on cots and mats, that as Peter came by at least his shadow might fall on some of them.
Acts 5:14,15

yup

 

[&Abel]

Mary is most definitely idolized though

I think for the most part its pretty harmless but still...

 

[MoNiCa4316]

she is respected, not idolized.

God chose Mary to bring His Son into the world. He honors her. So it would wise for us to honor her too.

 

[&Abel]

its beyond respect

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

I asked a while back about the origin of the practice of praying to "Saints" and no one really knew when it started or why, but we did find out it is not in the Bible and the first recorded instance of it that anyone on this site found was in the 3rd century.....

Oh my goodness. Guess what else you can't find in the Bible: Anything that says there should be 27 books in the NT. You can't find the word "Trinity" there either. There are LOTS of things that are not specifically mentioned there which we believe in. But I assure you that it is totally Biblical.

And here is a picture of inscriptions from the catacombs of Rome asking for prayers from those who have passed on:

I'm not sure where you got your information from, but I AM sure it is WRONG.

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

One definition of Prayer is a "request". When we pray to those who have gone to heaven ahead of us, we are making a "request" of them. And what is that request? It is that THEY pray for US. Most Christians do it all the time, but limit themselves to making this request only of people still on earth. In this, I think their view of the Church is very narrow (no disrespect intended). You see, Romans 8: 38-39 says: "neither death nor life.. ..present nor the future.. ..height nor depth.. ..will be able to separate us...".; The Family of God transcends death. We ALL LIVE IN CHRIST.

Heb 12: 22-24 says that as we approach God, Jesus and the angels, we also approach "the spirits of righteous men made perfect". In other words, THE SAINTS. But, can they hear us? Scripture indicates those in heaven ARE aware of the prayers of those on earth. For example, in Revelation 5:8, John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Oh, and the intercession of fellow Christians in heaven also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God"

Bottom line for me, if I am going to ask someone to pray for me, I'm seeking out the holiest person I can find. As the Bible says: "The prayer of a righteous man availeth much" (KJV).

For more Biblical references, go to:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

 

[JacktheCatholic]

As I haven't the time and am tired of dealing with the issue, suffice to say the points iterated above to some extent betray a certain bias and include some misinformation.

ROFL!!!

No kidding... you don't say?

I totally relate to how ya feel. Maybe that is why I do not visit the Mariology area as much as I should. It gets tiring explaining that to love Jesus is to love his mother and Father. That to only love Jesus and His Father and to give no credit to His mother is a insult to Jesus himself.

But Jesus is love personified and forgives us our trespasses. Jesus is soooo awesome!

 

[MoNiCa4316]

its beyond respect

and the evidence for this is............... ?

Oh my goodness. Guess what else you can't find in the Bible: Anything that says there should be 27 books in the NT. You can't find the word "Trinity" there either. There are LOTS of things that are not specifically mentioned there which we believe in. But I assure you that it is totally Biblical.

And here is a picture of inscriptions from the catacombs of Rome asking for prayers from those who have passed on:

I'm not sure where you got your information from, but I AM sure it is WRONG.

me too.

One definition of Prayer is a "request". When we pray to those who have gone to heaven ahead of us, we are making a "request" of them. And what is that request? It is that THEY pray for US. Most Christians do it all the time, but limit themselves to making this request only of people still on earth. In this, I think their view of the Church is very narrow (no disrespect intended). You see, Romans 8: 38-39 says: "neither death nor life.. ..present nor the future.. ..height nor depth.. ..will be able to separate us...".; The Family of God transcends death. We ALL LIVE IN CHRIST.

Heb 12: 22-24 says that as we approach God, Jesus and the angels, we also approach "the spirits of righteous men made perfect". In other words, THE SAINTS. But, can they hear us? Scripture indicates those in heaven ARE aware of the prayers of those on earth. For example, in Revelation 5:8, John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Oh, and the intercession of fellow Christians in heaven also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God"

Bottom line for me, if I am going to ask someone to pray for me, I'm seeking out the holiest person I can find. As the Bible says: "The prayer of a righteous man availeth much" (KJV).

For more Biblical references, go to:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

good post.

Also, Moses and Elijah appeared in the Transfiguration!

and intercession is not the same as mediation... Christ is the mediator between the Father and mankind for our salvation. This is unique... but there are intercessors between us and Christ also, and we serve this role every time we pray for one another.

ROFL!!!

No kidding... you don't say?

I totally relate to how ya feel. Maybe that is why I do not visit the Mariology area as much as I should. It gets tiring explaining that to love Jesus is to love his mother and Father. That to only love Jesus and His Father and to give no credit to His mother is a insult to Jesus himself.

But Jesus is love personified and forgives us our trespasses. Jesus is soooo awesome!

when we love the Lord, we love what He loves... and of course He loves His Mother

 

[E.C.]

There are Saints and there are saints. We are all saints, but not everyone is a Saint. Let us think about baseball. There are many baseball players, but not everyone is a Babe Ruth, Nolan Ryan or Jackie Robinson. For those that are, than congratulations, they get a spot in the Hall of Fame.

The same goes for being apostles here. We are all called to be apostles, but not everyone can be Apostles like Paul or the Twelve.

Mary is most definitely idolized though

I think for the most part its pretty harmless but still...

its beyond respect

Can you read the hearts of men? If not, than how can you make the judgment of if one is idolizing or not?

 

[Annolennar]

Can you read the hearts of men? If not, than how can you make the judgment of if one is idolizing or not?

I totally have a relevant quote in my signature!

If you should see evident sins or defects, draw out of those thorns the rose, that is to say, offer them to Me, with holy compassion; perceiving, moreover, that such apparent sinners may frequently have a good intention, for no one can judge the secrets of the heart of man.​

 

[Mikeb85]

I asked a while back about the origin of the practice of praying to "Saints" and no one really knew when it started or why, but we did find out it is not in the Bible and the first recorded instance of it that anyone on this site found was in the 3rd century and one possible quote from the first century. Well, that was not enough information and did not explain why this practice began. So, I found the book "Making Saints" at the library and I read the part about the beginning of Christianity and how the whole "Saint" concept began. I am a bit suprised that no one knew or could share about it. I feel that we should all be responsible for educating ourselves about religious practices that we chose to participate in.

Anyway, here are some things I learned:

• In the beginning, as seen in the NT, all baptised believers were called "saints" which means those who are separated unto God. Most of the early believers were Jews and they saw holiness as a quality shared by the community.
• Christianity quickly spread away from the influence of the Jews and was embraced by others who had other backgrounds and traditions.
• Even in the first generation of Christians, those who were martryerd - who died for their faith, were singled out as being more "special" than others then they began to use the word "saint" only to refer to martryrs. Stephen was the first martryr and his story was similar to that of Christ in his dying and so to be a saint was not only to die for Christ, but one who died like Him. And since Jesus rose again, so it was assumed that the martryrs did too. Due to the extreme persecution of the church in the first 3 centuries, lots of martryrs and thus lots of saints were produced.
• But, since not all of those tortured in the name of Christ died from their torture and although they had confessed their faith publicly, they did not get to die and be martryrs so they came up with another category of saints who were "confessors". They also were venerated at their death as saints. Over time, as martrydom decreased, more ways of becoming saints increased to include those who were missionaries or who helped the poor etc...
• It was believed that the saints were "reborn" at the moment of their death, as Christ was and there were ceremonies remembering the day of their death.
• As early as the 2nd century Christians who venerated saints were accused of idolatry. Apparantly when Polycarp was martryred, the magistrate refused to give the Christians his charred remains because he was afraid they would "abandon the Crucified and worship this man" in His place.
• Just as the body and blood of Christ were believed to be materially present in the bread and wine, the spirits of the saints were believed to dwell in their relics. So, the bodies, clothes and even the instruments that had been used to toruture the saints became venerated as sacred objects with magical powers.
• Each region had it's own local saints and shrines were built at their tombs and Christian families would feast at the saints tombs.
• Several of the church fathers opposed the veneration of the relics because they were given the sort of reverence that should be given to God alone. But the pro-relic faction won.
• Bu 767 the council of Nicaea said that every church must contain an "altar" stone housing the relics of a saint.
• Not all saints were even Christians and some were fictional characters.
• Relics were so important that the church began to practice "translation" or removal of relics from tombs to churches and also "invention" and discovery of remains.
• This caused abuses and in the 9th century there was a corporation that specialized in the discovery, sale and export of relics. Monks stole relics from each other's monasteries because the better the relics, the more famous the monestary.
• The saints were venerated for their holiness, but invoked for their miraculous powers.

Alot of misinformation here. Anyhow, as far as relics goes, here's a Bibical example, 2 Kings 13:21:

So it was, as they were burying a man, that suddenly they spied a band [of raiders]; and they put the man in the tomb of Elisha; and when the man was let down and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived and stood on his feet.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

There are Saints and there are saints. We are all saints, but not everyone is a Saint. Let us think about baseball. There are many baseball players, but not everyone is a Babe Ruth, Nolan Ryan or Jackie Robinson. For those that are, than congratulations, they get a spot in the Hall of Fame.

The same goes for being apostles here. We are all called to be apostles, but not everyone can be Apostles like Paul or the Twelve.





Can you read the hearts of men? If not, than how can you make the judgment of if one is idolizing or not?

 

[&Abel]

can we be completely honest so that I can guage better

but please don't lie, be honest with yourself and with me

do you spend more time thinking about Jesus or Mary? do you spend more time debating in the name of Mary or Jesus?

if Jesus and Mary had a conflict(and they did) who would you assume was in the wrong?

because I've debated with someone who defended Mary over Jesus

THAT is idolatry

 

[JacktheCatholic]

can we be completely honest so that I can guage better

but please don't lie, be honest with yourself and with me

do you spend more time thinking about Jesus or Mary? do you spend more time debating in the name of Mary or Jesus?

if Jesus and Mary had a conflict(and they did) who would you assume was in the wrong?

because I've debated with someone who defended Mary over Jesus

THAT is idolatry

I think we all could benefit from a thread about idolatry.

For the record, anything that has to do with Mary in the Catholic Church is so completely tied to God in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit that to be with out any of these three persons of God would make our veneration of Mary pointless.

So the bottom line is that idolatry of Mary is not the case in Catholcism. Mary is so venerated not because of what Mary did but what God did with Mary and how she cooperated. People do not like to hear that God has favorites but the truth is, He does. All through scripture we see this starting with Cane and Abel. Once we can understand this then we can understand that Mary is God's chosen or favorite.