Make love....

[kopilo]

Let me reply with two quotes I love......

Violence is the first refuge of the violent. Aaron Allston

You never need an argument against the use of violence, you need an argument for it. Noam Chomsky

Ahh I like the second quote from Noam Chomsky.

 

[The Seeker]

"the day we do not need lawful violence is the day we do not need any violence."

And the day it rains gumdrops, sweet shops will go out of business.

 

[The Seeker]

You never need an argument against the use of violence, you need an argument for it. Noam Chomsky

So in other words, violence should be used only when it is necessary? I agree wholeheartedly. The above statement inherently implies that there are valid arguments for violence in certain situations. Noam Chomsky is certainly no pacifist.

But your argument is fallacious anyway, just because somebody famous said it, doesn't make it so.

 

[The Seeker]

I never said that you should let evil happen! I do not want evil to happen. I have been scarred for life by evil! I was raped two times and almost raped by three grown men....do not say I let evil happen. I won't let it happen again. I do know that I can not fight back by using violence. I know the names of these men, all I need is revenge.....violence if you please to end evil (They are evil)....a gun would do the trick

But why fight violence with violence. Why lower myself to the level of the rapists? Why act upon the pain I feel? Will it make the world better? Maybe for a moment.....maybe a month, two years...but hey guess what rape happens every few seconds......

Nobody is arguing for vengance. People are arguing that it is sometimes reasonable to use violence in self defence. If you will insist on claiming the moral highground, then stop misrepresenting the positions of others.

So, instead of spreading violence like oil on water, I want to spread love, respect and compassion It 's much better for the environment, don't you think?

Its a nice idea, but it doesn't work in practice.

You can either place your self image as a moral person above the actual needs of others and limit your actions unnecessarily or you can get down among the muck and do something. You can't do both.

Matthew 5 and 6
[...]
Why read this words and let them slide? I believe in these words of Jesus. I wish I could tell the whole world that only this way we achieve world peace. Don't you want to live in a world like that? If you want it, you have to start, today, in your home.

Do you have an argument besides "it is attributed to Jesus, therefore it must be absolutely right and applicable to all situations?"

No one says you can not defend yourself. But with violence? Is that the answer? Of course a mother will attack the attacker of her child...but will her pain be less if she kills him? Will the child live without scars? Will the child be brought to life again?

Strawman, you are talking about violence as vengence in response to violence, who has actually argued for that?

Why give the agressor what they want?

Failing to resist by whatever means are necessary to protect oneself and others is giving the agressor what they want.

 

[kopilo]

And the day it rains gumdrops, sweet shops will go out of business.

But there are always other sweets in the store.
what store sells violence...

 

[The Seeker]

But there are always other sweets in the store.
what store sells violence...

You know full well what I meant.

 

[B®ent]

Ahem, I never said you can not defend yourself, but does it need to be violent? Explain to me why the violent way is the only way? And if you really read my last post, you see that I said I understand if a mother defends her child, but is acting with violence the only way? You say correct, but I will not watch and see how someone gets killed or murdered? where did you get that idea. I rather be killed myself than let my loved ones get hurt.....

Maybe I will use violence in rage...I am not perfect. But I never did, and I am proud that I haven't lowered myself to the level of my rapists..... And I do not kill a fly, I just can not do it. Am I wrong for being that way? Cause you make me all think I am wrong.......

And Pacifism is pratical, it just takes longer.

My dad fought in WW2...so do not tell me what happened in WW2. I know exactly what happened.....

I have a quote for you: "If you would know the soldier of the enemy personal, you would not kill him..." MY DAD!

I am talking about war as well. Everybody talks about personal harm.....but what about war. WW2 was ended, but did it bring peace? NO....

And how do you know how you react in a personal situation. most people don't do squat. I was almost raped in brought daylight by three adult men. I screamed for help...and the appartment building was right next to that doomed spot. NOBDODY did anything. I rather respect a human being that tries to help somebody in a none violent way, then those who say they will use violence to safe someone, but do not do anything when they don't know the attacked person!

End rant!

You did not explain your solution to WW2.

Would you have allowed Nazis to take over Europe and remain in power, resulting in the extermination of MILLIONS more Jews? Would you have permitted Imperial Japan to continue raping Chinese women, killing their children, and to dominate the pacific ocean?

Your "rant" did not come close to addressing this. Reason being, I have demonstrated how WAR sometimes establishes peace, and how pacificism often results in greater suffering.

 

[belladonic-haze]

You did not explain your solution to WW2.

I haven't indeed. I only said that my dad was part of the USArmy...

He saw what happened with the jewish people. He was part of a mission to liberate some of the camps they were held. You and me can not even imagine what the horror was that these people had to endure. My father saw it with his own eyes, only 18 years old.....I do not justivy that kind of violence. And maybe at that time there was no other way. But that was 60 years ago. I did not live then and maybe I would be understanding the need for violence more. But you have no idea what war does to a soldiers soul and mind and body. Ever heard from PTSD? Wow, war is indeed the best way to achieve peace

Would you have allowed Nazis to take over Europe and remain in power, resulting in the extermination of MILLIONS more Jews? Would you have permitted Imperial Japan to continue raping Chinese women, killing their children, and to dominate the pacific ocean?

History and NO I would not allow it and still don't allow it. But resistance can be peaceful. The Swiss stayed neutral during WW2, yet they helped so many people to escape Europe. They did not just sat there and looked what happened.

Why do people think when you are a pacifist you allow violence. I do not allow it...THAT is why I do NOT use it....because I want the world to be changed for us and the next generation (okay I have a star trek moment here...LOL) and the next and so on....

Why do you allow Tibet to be occupied by the chinese and let monks and nuns be raped and tortured by them???? Because there is no money to be found in Tibet. Because it is just a big huge rock. War isn't about saving people....War is about money and power (and those two go hand in hand.) All those beautiful ideals you talk about are not true. The Americans would not have gone to war if the Japanese did not attack them. They were ****ed off and answered with violence. That D-Day happened and freed Europe has nothing to do with the need to stop the violence in Europe.......The USA looked the other way for 3 years, while people got killed in Europe. WHy....what the heck could they benefit from freeing Poland??

Anyway, war is about money and power. That is why it starts in the first place.......your picture of saving people is not realistic.....

Your "rant" did not come close to addressing this. Reason being, I have demonstrated how WAR sometimes establishes peace, and how pacificism often results in greater suffering.

Pacifism takes longer and yes it causes suffering....but do not tell me that war doesn't cause suffering. War is only filled with suffering. At least I suffer for a good reason and I would die for it....I refuse to fight violence with violence. I was attaked personally and I did not use violence. Did I suffer?....you have NO idea how much! Took it longer to heal?....hell yes!.....would I be better off if I had used violence?...No they would have killed me!

And wouldn't that be ashame, you not able to tell me that I am nuts

Who is right and wrong I do not know. I am not all knowing. I just know in my heart that I will not lower myself to brutal violence. Look how much the souls of the soldiers stationed in Iraq is damaged....it is damaged so much that they are torturing people. Not because they are sadists, but because they see people they know and love die and they see violence every day. They are scarred for life.....Vietnam veterans are still suffering. My Dad is still suffering and his ordeal was 60 years ago! He still has nightmares about the war. He lost a lot of loved ones and friends......His life was destroyed...no matter how lucky he was to survive this, he still suffers from the horror he saw...and many with him....

A Israeli war psycholist said in a docu once: Anyone who have experienced at least 60 days of war is mentally scarred for life....

Yep, war is the solution

 

[belladonic-haze]

Nobody is arguing for vengance. People are arguing that it is sometimes reasonable to use violence in self defence. If you will insist on claiming the moral highground, then stop misrepresenting the positions of others..

Well, I dunno what happens if someone tries to rape me again. I might scare myself.....I have no idea how I would react....but I try hard to be none violent....it is harder then be violent, proven here in this Thread i.e... People do not understand it.....maybe I am further evolved... just joking....

Its a nice idea, but it doesn't work in practice..

You can either place your self image as a moral person above the actual needs of others and limit your actions unnecessarily or you can get down among the muck and do something. You can't do both..

I do not place myself above anybody elese.....Heck I would die for my sis kids if I could save their lives. I do not see myself as a better person...but I saw violence upclose and personally and I do not want to be like them....what's so hard to understand? But I am no more worth then you or anybody else on this planet because I am a pacifist.....All living beings deserve to be treated with respect love and compassion. Why should I treat a soldier different then I would treat, let's say the Dalai Lama? I do not see the one as a better person because one uses none violence and the other uses violence? No I just want to live in a world of peace like both of them want as well. They use other means to achieve it, but one way is harder and takes longer......

Do you have an argument besides "it is attributed to Jesus, therefore it must be absolutely right and applicable to all situations?".

Buddha, Mahatma Gandhi, John Lennon, Bono Fox, Jane Goodall...and so on and so on...who should I quote???

Strawman, you are talking about violence as vengence in response to violence, who has actually argued for that?

Isn't it true that the USA started to get involved in WW2 AFTER they were attacked? And AFTER so many young men had died in vain? Isn't that vengence?

Do you really think I never thought about ending the lives of my rapists? I am only human and I hate them.......simple......but I do refuse to be like them and realized I would destroy not just their lives but the lives of the people who do love them...and they are innocent.. I just wish there was a way I could let them feel how I felt in that moment......Maybe then they would understand my pain. But that is not possible, because that would mean I need violence to do that...

Hon, if I was able to kill a fly.....but I can't.....I just can't. I am a biologist and one time I had to kill butterflies, painless......I turned away and I cried. I just could not do it. I had that bug in my hand but I could not "pull the trigger" How would I be able to kill a human being if I am not able to kill a butterfly???

Failing to resist by whatever means are necessary to protect oneself and others is giving the agressor what they want.

I see that different because you can resist peaceful.....It just takes a lot....A LOT longer......

 

[belladonic-haze]

But your argument is fallacious anyway, just because somebody famous said it, doesn't make it so.

So true ...

But I say it, just in other words, and I am not famous and a pacifist........

With violence true and honest peace can not be achieved......

A quote from me....

 

[kopilo]

You know full well what I meant.

Then you should know exactly what I meant, espeically when I say, the first step towards reaching a dream is to believe it is possible.

It is possible for it to rain gum drops, when you put your mind to it, but I think the damange of having it rain drops is not worth the effort.
(how to make it rain gun drops, drop gun drops from planes in the sky.)