Make love....

[The Seeker]

Read the definition, violence is when you intentionally harm someone, if you are defending someone then you may not intentionally harm someone.
More to the point, I have never heard someone say that violence should be used to solve an issue, in fact rather the opposite and always where possible to not use violence.

If you restrain someone using physical force, then you are likely to do them harm, whether you intend to or not. It is silly to say that it is alright to pin somebody to the ground (which can cause serious injuries, particularly resulting from the initial fall), but not to punch them, unless your specific goal was not to hurt that person.

Maybe if violence was an acceptable way of solving problems then we would have a society of violence.. to me this seems horrofic because if we are "fighting" with ourselves then we are not progressing or living in harmony, but to prove a lack of progress or harmony is negative, is beyound my capibilities.

That's very nice, but the reality is that some people will try to use violence to harm and dominate others, and sometimes violence is the only way.

 

[kopilo]

If you restrain someone using physical force, then you are likely to do them harm, whether you intend to or not. It is silly to say that it is alright to pin somebody to the ground (which can cause serious injuries, particularly resulting from the initial fall), but not to punch them, unless your specific goal was not to hurt that person.

I think you will find the point of violence is intent, someone may say some horrible insult towards you, this may not effect you at all but that doesn't make it any less of a violent action.

That's very nice, but the reality is that some people will try to use violence to harm and dominate others, and sometimes violence is the only way.

Well when you run into those some people and can foresee the only way out of a situation is violence (which you are using to solve the issue someone trying to dominate you through violence) then do what you like.

however for me it will always be my last resort, as long as I have control and can forsee as many options as possible.

The little extra bit was response to when someone said they did not see the issue with violence, I'm not sure who asked it or if that was the exact question but thought it would be nice to add on

 

[Koz]

I would assume trying to make love to a terrorist wouldn't turn out so good.

Sometimes being peaceful doesn't work anymore and you must use violence.

 

[The Seeker]

I think you will find the point of violence is intent, someone may say some horrible insult towards you, this may not effect you at all but that doesn't make it any less of a violent action.

Now you're just playing word games.

Well when you run into those some people and can foresee the only way out of a situation is violence (which you are using to solve the issue someone trying to dominate you through violence) then do what you like.

however for me it will always be my last resort, as long as I have control and can forsee as many options as possible.

Sometimes there is no other way. To take a random, hypothetical example, lets say you have a gun and there is a man running towards a loved one with a knife, he clearly intends to kill that loved one and there is no way you could run over in time to physically interpose yourself. Do you shoot?

The little extra bit was response to when someone said they did not see the issue with violence, I'm not sure who asked it or if that was the exact question but thought it would be nice to add on

I said something like that at least once, I don't know about anybody else. Though what I said was that I don't see why it is inherently wrong to use violence to defend oneself against violence, better that the one who is trying to harm me suffers than that I suffer.

 

[Higher]

Did non-violence stop the Holocaust? Did non violence give us our Independence? Did non-violence stop slavery? Does non-violence stop terrorism?

 

[kopilo]

Now you're just playing word games.

Not really you can go to any dictionary and look at the first definition and it will say something along the lines of intent. If I was playing word games I would be trying to twist the meaning some how.

Sometimes there is no other way. To take a random, hypothetical example, lets say you have a gun and there is a man running towards a loved one with a knife, he clearly intends to kill that loved one and there is no way you could run over in time to physically interpose yourself. Do you shoot?

First I would yell "stop or I will shoot", if the person was out of reach from my hands and I had no other options, then as a last resort I would shoot in front of their feet as a warning, if they still persisted then at their legs.

Given this has never happened in my life time. Honestly I can only say how I would like to react given the circumstance, but to know how I would react.. I can not tell you.

I said something like that at least once, I don't know about anybody else. Though what I said was that I don't see why it is inherently wrong to use violence to defend oneself against violence, better that the one who is trying to harm me suffers than that I suffer.

Well given the country time and place, it may be against the law (yes some places are like that) but morally it is up to your own choice..

"Violence only causes violence" - can't remember who said it.

 

[kopilo]

Did non-violence stop the Holocaust? Did non violence give us our Independence? Did non-violence stop slavery? Does non-violence stop terrorism?

Non-Violence liberated Estonia, non violence ended the samurai wars.

War stopped the holocost, (in fact bad timing in a war could also be the contributing measure). Anyway a couple of a-bombs was the way the Japanese were completely and utterly stopped.

Did Martin Luther King use violence? sigh, there are examples of non-violence and violent meathods in "stopping" situations all through out history, if you want to use them, then you have to analyse the concequences for all the options in all the cases you look at.

 

[belladonic-haze]

Did non-violence stop the Holocaust? Did non violence give us our Independence? Did non-violence stop slavery? Does non-violence stop terrorism?

Did violence bring world peace?

 

[belladonic-haze]

I would assume trying to make love to a terrorist wouldn't turn out so good.

Sometimes being peaceful doesn't work anymore and you must use violence.

If we treated everybody the same, peaceful and with love and respect would there be a breeding ground for terrorist?

Anyway, I do not want them run free and I do want to see these kind of people punished.....BY LAW.
But to attack a whole country, filled with innocent people and based on lies is not the best way to woo terrorists......

 

[kopilo]

This is a song that came upon me
one night
when the news it had been telling me
about one more war and one more fight
and 'aeh' I sighed but then
I thought about my friends
then I wrote this declaration
just in case the world end

Our guns
we shot them in the things we said
ah we didn't need no bullets
cos we rely on some words instead
kill someone in argument
outwit them with our brains
and we'd kill ourselves laughing
at the funny things we'd say

The Chariot by The Cat Empire

The rest of the lyrics is avaliable here: http://www.songmeanings.net/lyric.php?lid=3530822107858504352

 

[Lanakila]

your goal!

My opinion: Stop war...whatever the reason to go to war. A true and honest peaceful solution lasts longer.....

So, what could be a reason for war? In my heart and mind I can not think of any reason to kill......Why kill a living being? (I am a pacifist.)

Wonder what you all feel about it?

When I read the title to this thread: Make love, not war popped into my head.

I am thinking that isn't what you meant though.

 

[Garnet2727]

If we treated everybody the same, peaceful and with love and respect would there be a breeding ground for terrorist?

In my opinion, this will never happen. Humans cannot as a whole put aside their differences and treat everyone with courtesy and respect. There will always be the equivalent of the schoolyard bully.

Anyway, I do not want them run free and I do want to see these kind of people punished.....BY LAW.
But to attack a whole country, filled with innocent people and based on lies is not the best way to woo terrorists......

I agree with punishing people by law. I also disagree with the way the US manufactured and waged war upon Iraq. But as for the terrorists, I have no interest in wooing them. I want them captured and tried.

 

[belladonic-haze]

When I read the title to this thread: Make love, not war popped into my head.

I am thinking that isn't what you meant though.

Well, make love, not war is a good start

 

[belladonic-haze]

In my opinion, this will never happen. Humans cannot as a whole put aside their differences and treat everyone with courtesy and respect. There will always be the equivalent of the schoolyard bully.



I agree with punishing people by law. I also disagree with the way the US manufactured and waged war upon Iraq. But as for the terrorists, I have no interest in wooing them. I want them captured and tried.

You do not need to woo them...I was exaggerating.

But if we try to stop the "schoolyard bully" with violence the violence will be returned by more violence....and well, more violence will result in even more violence until we throw weapons of mass destruction at each other.....Is man kind that inhumane? Is that the world we want to live in?

 

[Eudaimonist]

But if we try to stop the "schoolyard bully" with violence the violence will be returned by more violence....

Not necessarily. Bullies are often cowards at heart, and shy away from strong resistance. Bullies prey on the weak, not on the strong. You might get less violence than what you'd otherwise get.

Not trying to stop the bully usually just encourages more and more violence. I've never known bullies to stop bullying just because there was no resistance.

 

[kopilo]

In my opinion, this will never happen. Humans cannot as a whole put aside their differences and treat everyone with courtesy and respect. There will always be the equivalent of the schoolyard bully.

Surely you have heard the "starfish washed upon a beach" story, maybe it is a utopian dream but we will never come close if we do not show by example ourselves or teach from the grass roots up.

Maybe you should take a vist to Japan.. not saying that Japan has the issue solved by any means of the imagination, but from all the people I know who have been there, they find the people very peaceful. My sister also works as a teacher over there, so she sees people of all ages, backgrounds etc.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Maybe you should take a vist to Japan.. not saying that Japan has the issue solved by any means of the imagination, but from all the people I know who have been there, they find the people very peaceful. My sister also works as a teacher over there, so she sees people of all ages, backgrounds etc.

Those "peaceful people" have a long bloody history. Is this really a good example?

 

[kopilo]

Not necessarily. Bullies are often cowards at heart, and shy away from strong resistance. Bullies prey on the weak, not on the strong. You might get less violence than what you'd otherwise get.

Not trying to stop the bully usually just encourages more and more violence. I've never known bullies to stop bullying just because there was no resistance.

There are different ways to deal with different types of bullies, a bully has to think on their own concious thoughts for them to stop bullying. Being assertive can be a solution, being aggressive though never solves a conflict issue.

 

[kopilo]

Those "peaceful people" have a long bloody history. Is this really a good example?

I think it is a good example considering it shows people with a long history of blood and warfare can be known for hosting one of the worlds most known and protected world peace memorials.

That is even without mentioning what the most famous Shogun did.

(Just trace back any countries history I'm sure you will find some form of bloody violence)

 

[Jetgirl]

Being assertive can be a solution, being aggressive though never solves a conflict issue.

Oh really?

I was picked on by this one girl over the years in escalating fashion. She'd wait for me outside the school and push me down or yank my hair. Before too long I was getting fairly seriously beat up by her and her friends on a weekly basis.

If I told on them I just got jumped more often. I tried being friendly, reasonable, avoiding them (which meant I had to hide in a building and sneak out after they left campus after school) and all the other cutesy things grownups tell you to do. Didn't work. They didn't want to be friends, they just wanted to beat me up and laugh at me.

I finally got totally fed up one day when I had the flu, had a fever and had been throwing up, and couldn't run away, and punched the one girl right in the face.

They never bothered me again.

It's just not fun to pick on someone who might dish it out right back.

Conflict issue solved.