Majority of White Americans Say They Believe Whites Face Discrimination

[Dave-W]

The Irish as white predates the United States, they were always considered white, but they were considered less evolved than Anglo white, hence their usual inclusion as indentured servants.

Actually they were slaves of significantly less value than African stock slaves. So they were put into dangerous jobs where they could be killed easily and no loss. To treat Black slaves that way meant putting at risk a significant monetary investment. The Irish? not so much.

From 1641 to 1652, over 500,000 Irish were killed by the English and another 300,000 were sold as slaves. Ireland’s population fell from about 1,500,000 to 600,000 in one single decade. Families were ripped apart as the British did not allow Irish dads to take their wives and children with them across the Atlantic. This led to a helpless population of homeless women and children. Britain’s solution was to auction them off as well.


During the 1650s, over 100,000 Irish children between the ages of 10 and 14 were taken from their parents and sold as slaves in the West Indies, Virginia and New England. In this decade, 52,000 Irish (mostly women and children) were sold to Barbados and Virginia. Another 30,000 Irish men and women were also transported and sold to the highest bidder. In 1656, Cromwell ordered that 2000 Irish children be taken to Jamaica and sold as slaves to English settlers.


Many people today will avoid calling the Irish slaves what they truly were: Slaves. They’ll come up with terms like “Indentured Servants” to describe what occurred to the Irish. However, in most cases from the 17th and 18th centuries, Irish slaves were nothing more than human cattle.


As an example, the African slave trade was just beginning during this same period. It is well recorded that African slaves, not tainted with the stain of the hated Catholic theology and more expensive to purchase, were often treated far better than their Irish counterparts.

African slaves were very expensive during the late 1600s (50 Sterling). Irish slaves came cheap (no more than 5 Sterling). If a planter whipped or branded or beat an Irish slave to death, it was never a crime. A death was a monetary setback, but far cheaper than killing a more expensive African.​

 

[Almost there]

Racism. A rose by any name.

In 1963 I lived in a neighborhood in Vallejo, california. I was in 3rd grade. Before that I lived in small town desert in the west. This town was my first experience with "black kids". I got along fine and didn't see them as different any more than we are all different than each other.

But after two years there, I noticed the following:

1. My black "friends" turned on me BECAUSE I was white.
2. There was a fight almost every day after school in the playground adjacent to the street. In EVERY SINGLE CASE it was black against black.
3. The saddest part was that our "white" neighborhood was right next door to a "black" neighborhood. I mean ALL black and ALL white. There was a footbridge between the two separated by a large ditch. I'm sure it's concrete now, but it was dirt then, and we enjoyed getting frogs and tadpoles. But I digress...Both neighboerhoods were built at exactly the same time. Both were built by the same builder and were the same group of architectural designs. but a decade had passed. The white neighborhood looked like Leave it to Beaver land. Well trimmed lawns and well maintained homes. The black neighborhood had dirt yards and hollow front doors with holes kicked in them. I ventured over there a few times on my bike but it got dicey. The saddest thing I saw was a little girl, maybe 8, riding her bike on the street with no tires on the wheels. Just rims.

It caused me to look at black people differently, just as I know those folks looked at white people differently. I actually felt bad for the kids that were raised there, but as a 3rd grader I didn't know what caused it or what the solution would be.

But I did learn that I agree with Jesse Jackson.

 

[SummerMadness]

Actually they were slaves of significantly less value than African stock slaves. So they were put into dangerous jobs where they could be killed easily and no loss. To treat Black slaves that way meant putting at risk a significant monetary investment. The Irish? not so much.

The consideration of value for work does not change the fact that they were considered more highly evolved than Africans.

 

[Rion]

The consideration of value for work does not change the fact that they were considered more highly evolved than Africans.

I'm sure that made a world of difference to Irish slaves. "Sure, the master beats you more and works you harder, but he just does it because he knows you're more evolved and so can handle it!"

 

[Dave-W]

The consideration of value for work does not change the fact that they were considered more highly evolved than Africans.

Probably. But I think that distinction was entirely lost on your average slave holder. All he saw was cheap or free labor.

 

[SummerMadness]

I'm sure that made a world of difference to Irish slaves. "Sure, the master beats you more and works you harder, but he just does it because he knows you're more evolved and so can handle it!"

I stated a simple fact, Europeans had a racial hierarchy that placed some ethnic European groups as below other European groups. However, they placed Africans as the least evolved or evolved directly from apes, as in they were subhuman. What are you disputing?

Probably. But I think that distinction was entirely lost on your average slave holder. All he saw was cheap or free labor.

Let's gather some perspective here, the Irish slavery argument is a myth.

Debunking a Myth: The Irish Were Not Slaves, Too
The curious origins of the 'Irish slaves' myth

Historians say the idea of Irish slaves is based on a misreading of history and that the distortion is often politically motivated. Far-right memes have taken off online and are used as racist barbs against African-Americans. “The Irish were slaves, too,” the memes often say. “We got over it, so why can’t you?”

A small group of Irish and American scholars has spent years pushing back on the false history. Last year, 82 Irish scholars and writers signed an open letter denouncing the Irish slave myth and asking publications to stop mentioning it. Some complied, removing or revising articles that referenced the false claims, but the letter’s impact was limited.

 

[Rion]

I stated a simple fact, Europeans had a racial hierarchy that placed some ethnic European groups as below other European groups. However, they placed Africans as the least evolved or evolved directly from apes, as in they were subhuman. What are you disputing?

Not disputing anything, I just find it interesting how you're willing to dismiss another group's suffering if it threatens the narrative.

 

[SummerMadness]

Not disputing anything, I just find it interesting how you're willing to dismiss another group's suffering if it threatens the narrative.

I did not dismiss another group's suffering. Another group was brought up to dismiss the suffering of African slaves to say "it wasn't that bad" based on the myth of Irish slavery. Where is that funny poster that was crowing about the "not as bad as" fallacy?

 

[RDKirk]

In 1963 I lived in a neighborhood in Vallejo, california. I was in 3rd grade. Before that I lived in small town desert in the west. This town was my first experience with "black kids". I got along fine and didn't see them as different any more than we are all different than each other.

But after two years there, I noticed the following:

1. My black "friends" turned on me BECAUSE I was white.
2. There was a fight almost every day after school in the playground adjacent to the street. In EVERY SINGLE CASE it was black against black.
3. The saddest part was that our "white" neighborhood was right next door to a "black" neighborhood. I mean ALL black and ALL white. There was a footbridge between the two separated by a large ditch. I'm sure it's concrete now, but it was dirt then, and we enjoyed getting frogs and tadpoles. But I digress...Both neighboerhoods were built at exactly the same time. Both were built by the same builder and were the same group of architectural designs. but a decade had passed. The white neighborhood looked like Leave it to Beaver land. Well trimmed lawns and well maintained homes. The black neighborhood had dirt yards and hollow front doors with holes kicked in them. I ventured over there a few times on my bike but it got dicey. The saddest thing I saw was a little girl, maybe 8, riding her bike on the street with no tires on the wheels. Just rims.

It caused me to look at black people differently, just as I know those folks looked at white people differently. I actually felt bad for the kids that were raised there, but as a 3rd grader I didn't know what caused it or what the solution would be.

But I did learn that I agree with Jesse Jackson.

Did you check to see if they had the same city utilities?

 

[Rion]

I did not dismiss another group's suffering.

Uh-huh.

Another group was brought up to dismiss the suffering of African slaves to say "it wasn't that bad" based on the myth of Irish slavery.

You mean @Dave-W ? The same guy who told someone else complaining about "whites getting discriminated against" to get over it?

Where is that funny poster that was crowing about the "not as bad as" fallacy?

I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[SummerMadness]

Uh-huh.

The topic was not about suffering, so claiming I was dismissing suffering is incorrect. I made no comment about suffering, please feel free to demonstrate where my post made a comment about suffering.

You mean @Dave-W ? The same guy who told someone else complaining about "whites getting discriminated against" to get over it?

The original post reply was in response to the fact that Africans were considered subhuman compared to white Europeans, to which the poster made a comment about value of indentured servants and attempted to equate them to chattel slaves. My comment had nothing to do with value, treatment or the type of bonded labor.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Another poster on this forum claimed that I was arguing that something was not as bad as something else in another topic, when that was not the case. Unfortunately, he/she is absent on the current topics, which are clearly employing this fallacy.

 

[Almost there]

The consideration of value for work does not change the fact that they were considered more highly evolved than Africans.

Only by those that believe in evolution.

 

[SummerMadness]

Only by those that believe in evolution.

Humans are a single species, the notion of separate racial evolution is a byproduct of racism, not the theory of evolution. The scientific method did not create those racist beliefs, man did.

 

[Aldebaran]

Why don't you just tell us what you really think about black folks?

I mean... What a patently absurd standard to which to hold people. Because they, as a group, don't have it as bad as their ancestors, they have no right to protest the injustices happening today?

Not on the basis of what happened to their ancestors. If that's going to be a valid standard, then almost anything could be justified for any group of people, whether it's based on their skin color, religion, or anything else.

 

[Audacious]

MUCH less. So these people should quit the whining because it's a dishonor to their ancestors who went through the real discrimination.

If someone else has it worse, that doesn't make your situation better. Being treated poorly by society is bad regardless of how bad it's been before.

Literal slavery is a pretty low bar for whether or not someone is facing discrimination.

I would say for the most part you're right, but the issue starts when conservatives are harassed by liberals for their beliefs. This is especially prevalent on large college campuses where the professors and staff are big left leaning liberals.

I've been harassed for my liberal views in a conservative community college. This stuff goes both ways. (The christian outreach group kicked me out because they thought my brother was gay, and when my sister complained about being removed from the group, the director of student resources told my sister that she was clearly not a christian because she was a math major.).

 

[Almost there]

Humans are a single species, the notion of separate racial evolution is a byproduct of racism, not the theory of evolution. The scientific method did not create those racist beliefs, man did.

You're really kind of mincing words. I was simply saying that if a person believes one race is more evolved than the other, it is, by definition, due to some evolutionary process.

Just as the evolutionary process used in automobile design caused the Corvette to evolve. The later model is still a car just like the first corvette was, but it is better and more sophisiticated.

To believe one race is more evolved than another, you have to believe the mechanism that supports evolution actually exists. Otherwise, you believe they are both as they were when they were designed.

 

[SummerMadness]

You're really kind of mincing words. I was simply saying that if a person believes one race is more evolved than the other, it is, by definition, due to some evolutionary process.

Just as the evolutionary process used in automobile design caused the Corvette to evolve. The later model is still a car just like the first corvette was, but it is better and more sophisiticated.

To believe one race is more evolved than another, you have to believe the mechanism that supports evolution actually exists. Otherwise, you believe they are both as they were when they were designed.

The "evolutionary process" of the Corvette and the theory of evolution are not the same thing. And your argument is incorrect, believing in the biological underpinnings of evolution has nothing to do with racist attitudes about different racial groups (a human construct). It's the equivalent of saying people were designed as they were, which is white as superior and black as inferior. The belief or lack of belief in the scientific method is immaterial to the racism, you're simply using a crutch to justify your beliefs. "They're inferior because they were designed that way!"

 

[Aldebaran]

If someone else has it worse, that doesn't make your situation better. Being treated poorly by society is bad regardless of how bad it's been before.

Literal slavery is a pretty low bar for whether or not someone is facing discrimination.

So is using the history of your ancestors to justify a claim of racism and discrimination today in order to get favorable treatment over someone who doesn't look like you.

I've been harassed for my liberal views in a conservative community college. This stuff goes both ways. (The christian outreach group kicked me out because they thought my brother was gay, and when my sister complained about being removed from the group, the director of student resources told my sister that she was clearly not a christian because she was a math major.).

Those things clearly should not have happened.

 

[Audacious]

So is using the history of your ancestors to justify a claim of racism and discrimination today in order to get favorable treatment over someone who doesn't look like you.

The history of how one's ancestors are treated effect how they are treated today, and how they are today. It influences the culture around you and the culture of those who would oppress you; and creates your situation, in many ways.

For many people, their living situations exist due to events stretching back to their ancestors being kidnapped by slavers and sold to Europeans. Ignoring this fact would be silly when they directly effect the world today.

 

[Aldebaran]

The history of how one's ancestors are treated effect how they are treated today, and how they are today. It influences the culture around you and the culture of those who would oppress you; and creates your situation, in many ways.

You might not want to use the word "culture" here. They guy who just posted in post #217 has a history of saying that culture is another word for "black people" and is racist.

For many people, their living situations exist due to events stretching back to their ancestors being kidnapped by slavers and sold to Europeans. Ignoring this fact would be silly when they directly effect the world today.

I'd sure like to hear this excuse being made in front of a judge when they are asked why they stole a car, robbed a convenience store, were out selling drugs on the street corner. It's like saying that they can't make good decisions for their life because of their ancestors being kidnapped and sold to Europeans. What would you think of Christians who would claim that crimes they committed was due to their religious ancestors being arrested and thrown to the lions in Rome? It wouldn't make much sense, would it?