majority doctrine?

[ByTheSpirit]

Please excuse me for posting this here as you can see by my faith icon I have a "Charismatic" label right now. I was wondering if at all possible, are there any Wesleyan denominations that believe in gifts of the Spirit (i.e. 1 Cor 12:7-11)? I have read some of John Wesley's literature and noticed he believed in all the gifts and thought they were active still in his day. What about the traditional Pentecostal doctrine of the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit"? I looked at a United Methodist and even Nazarene's Statement of Faith and it didn't really say yes or no to that question so I defer to you all fine brothers and sisters in Christ.

Also, to the denominations represented here: what about the "rapture of the Church"? Pre/Mid/Post?

View on Water Baptism? Necessary for salvation?

I sincerely want to know the doctrinal stance on these things. I promise not to debate the subjects. I have considered attending a Methodist church but would like to know more about it before I do so.

God bless you and thank you for your answers.

 

[Maid Marie]

Hello,

The CotN believes that the gifts of the Spirit are still active today. Although, speaking in tongues/special prayer language is not a part of our tradition. Some are really bothered by it while others [like myself] really don't care one way or the other. But it is just not done in our worship services.

Water Baptism is practiced but I wouldn't say that it is viewed as necessary for salvation.

The phrase Baptism of the Spirit will be used as a second act of Grace after salvation but it doesn't involve receiving a prayer language.

Regarding the rapture, the Article of Faith [which doesn't say much about the second coming] says it all. Meaning, we don't have much theology about it other than Jesus is coming again and the penitent will be raised with Christ, while the impenitent won't be.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Interesting thanks! So in your view, what makes CotN any different than Pentecostal/AoG?

 

[circuitrider]

There are charismatics in the United Methodist Church though it is not a major emphasis of the denomination and not all would encourage a charismatic orientation. I've never seen someone speak in tongues in a UMC service for example.

United Methodists believe baptism with water is a sacrament. United Methodists do not believe in a doctrine of a "second blessing" or separate baptism of the Holy Spirit.

In fact our baptismal liturgy says, "having been baptized by water and the Spirit, may you be a faithful disciple of Jesus Christ." So the assumption is that you receive a blessing of the Holy Spirit at baptism.

But neither do United Methodists believe that this is the only time the Holy Spirit works in your life. We believe that God is sanctifying us throughout our lives by the guidance and presence of God's spirit.

 

[Qyöt27]

Also, to the denominations represented here: what about the "rapture of the Church"? Pre/Mid/Post?

None of the above. On any of it. The Rapture and Dispensationalism aren't traditional beliefs* and you're far more likely to encounter the far older eschatological views of amillennialism or postmillennialism (with or without a preterist element).

*I'm being polite, but it's also pertinent here: Methodism originated more or less in the middle of 1700s; Dispensationalism and the Rapture, not until the 1820s-40s between Darby and the Millerites (which also lead to a different point: the lineages are different, and most/all Mainline denoms, of which the UMC is one, reject Dispensationalism and its trappings for largely the same reasons that Catholics and Eastern Orthodox do).

 

[AGTG]

Just this last week, I spoke to a pastor of a "Nazarene" church. He said they do believe in the gifts of the Spirit for today, except for tongues for self-edification.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Thank you all very much for your answers! I suppose the only thing left for me to do is to contact a local church.... I'm really not sure how well such a meeting will go, but I find I'm much more in line with Nazarene/Methodist doctrine than I am with current Pentecostal/AG doctrine.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Just found out from the Church of the Nazarene - Home website there is only 1 CotN in my area, and only 4 Methodist churches.... UGH, quite a selection. I may just wait until I move to Manhattan, KS in 5 weeks to look at one...

 

[GraceSeeker]

In the UMC we are so broad that answers can very greatly depending on who you ask and the context they are thinking of when answering your question(s). Here are mine:

Please excuse me for posting this here as you can see by my faith icon I have a "Charismatic" label right now. I was wondering if at all possible, are there any Wesleyan denominations that believe in gifts of the Spirit (i.e. 1 Cor 12:7-11)?

Yes. From my experience ALL of them believe in the gifts of the Spirit. Depending on the local region you may even find them being commonly practiced -- this would be especially true among United Methodists in eastern Kentucky and southeastern Illinois. I think also likely in central Texas.

I have read some of John Wesley's literature and noticed he believed in all the gifts and thought they were active still in his day. What about the traditional Pentecostal doctrine of the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit"?

Not as I hear Pentecostals usually speak of it.

Wesley certainly believes in a second (and even a third) work of Grace. But Wesley is referring to sanctification when he does so. First there is prevenient grace, the grace that God shows to us when he awakens unrepentant sinners to realize their state of fallenness and be open to the need to repent. Then there is saving grace in the forms of both regenerating and justifying grace that are two sides of the same coin by which we are born again and declared as right with God by virtue of Christ's propitious acts on the cross and our trust in them (which is what is meant by "belief in" Christ as opposed to those who speak of belief regarding some set of propositional truths about Christ). And finally there is sanctifying grace wherein saved, but still imperfect, followers of Christ grow in their relationship with God through the active and guiding presence of the Holy Spirit in our lives so that we become more and more like Christ himself as the divine image we were created to reflect, but from which we have fallen, becomes restored in us.

All Christians, by virtue of coming to faith in Christ, experience this presence of the Holy Spirit active in their lives. Were the Holy Spirit not present, then one would not in fact be saved. But the Holy Spirit in fact is present, so that no person who belongs to Christ is lost unless they turn their backs on the work of the Holy Spirit in their lives. But that does not mean the same thing as what Pentecostals usually mean by Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Also, to the denominations represented here: what about the "rapture of the Church"? Pre/Mid/Post?

It is not an article of faith for us. United Methodists can be found in each camp. Many are even amillenial and believe the rapture to be more of a metaphor than a future historical event.

View on Water Baptism? Necessary for salvation?

Water baptism is a visible sign on the physical plane of our existence of what God does on the spiritual plane of our existence. Such baptism is a means by which God's grace is conveyed to us, but God is not dependent on us being baptized for us to be saved. God is never limited by human agency to save us. God can save anyone he wants to completely on his own terms. People who have faith in Christ are saved whether they have been baptized or not. And people who have been baptized but lack faith in Christ are not saved simply because they have gotten wet and had some words spoken over them. There is nothing magical about baptism one way or the other.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Again thank you everyone for your responses! Perhaps it would be helpful for me to give a better explanation of my personal theology.

I believe in the Holy Trinity (Gen 1:2, 26; Matthew 3:16-17; Mark 1:9-11; Luke 3:21-22; John 1:29-34; Acts 5:3-4; Romans 8:9; 2 Cor 13:14). I believe it is a mystery that escapes the human mind, and yet the three eternal beings are one in how they act and operate. (John 8:28-29; 10:28-30; 14:9-11, 26; 16:13-15)

I believe people are saved by grace alone through faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), but that faith must be expressed by works (James 2:14-26).

These works include:

Water baptism (Acts 2:38; 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21) both as a regenerative work (Romans 6:3-5; Titus 3:5) and symbolic of what happens in the spiritual (John 3:3-7, 7:38-39; 1 Cor 12:13; Titus 3:5)

Confession of Jesus as Lord (Romans 10:9-10; Acts 22:16; 1 John 4:15) and of our sins for forgiveness (1 John 1:9; Acts 19:18)

Once we enter the covenant of grace by Christ's blood, we must continue to abide in Jesus (Colossians 2:6; John 15:4-5; 1 John 3:23-24; Galatians 5:16-25; Ephesians 5:1-2, 18-21) by believing in Him and living in love as He commanded us (1 John 2:5-6, 3:23-24, 4:7-21; John 13:34-35).

I do not accept the Pentecostal teaching of receiving the Holy Spirit "baptism" after being born again. Several scriptures seem to indicate we receive the fullness of the Spirit when we believe (1 Corinthians 12:13; Acts 19:1-6; Ephesians 1:13, 22-23; Galatians 3:2-5; Col 2:9-10) But I do believe that all the gifts are active even today and necessary for the work of the gospel until the day Jesus returns. (Mark 16:17-18; John 14:12; 1 Corinthians 1:5-7, 12-14; Ephesians 4:11-13; 1 Thessalonians 5:19-21; Revelation 19:10)

I believe Jesus will return one time, at the end of all things to gather His Church to Him and reign for a 1,000 years before judging those who were lost (Revelation 19-20; John 14:2-3; Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Corinthians 15:23-26, 52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-10; 1 John 3:2; Philippians 3:20-21)

I think that sums it up... I only list these to give everyone here a better idea of my view on scripture to help me understand how "compatible" I am with Wesleyan theology, definitely not to try and debate how right or wrong I am. From what I've read, I would seem to fit in well.

I also do believe we as the Church should partake of the Lord's Supper every time we meet. I've been part of Church's that never did it or only did it once a year. I think from John 6:35-58; Acts 2:42-47; 1 Corinthians 11:17-34 we should partake of the Lord's Supper as often as we can, for it has some spiritual significance, although what that is I'm not sure. Perhaps just to keep us in remembrance of what Jesus did for us so we live accordingly....

 

[GraceSeeker]

I think that sums it up... I only list these to give everyone here a better idea of my view on scripture to help me understand how "compatible" I am with Wesleyan theology, definitely not to try and debate how right or wrong I am. From what I've read, I would seem to fit in well.

I think you will as well. In fact, there is only one point you listed that I disagree with and a second that I think really isn't relevant. Given the diversity of beliefs found in the UMC, that's a pretty high level of correlation.

Of course, you don't always find us living out our beliefs well. For instance, I'm in 100% agreement with you regarding the view that we should be taking communion regularly, every time we gather for worship would seem to be best, yet not one church I have pastored has had that practice. Many only did so quarterly, and while I advocated more frequent communion, the most frequent any have become is monthly. And I have to realize that even though I am the pastor, that these decisions belong ultimately not to me but to the congregation. I chose to adopt an adaptation of a popular saying, I can lead the people to the bread and cup, but I can't make them eat and drink.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Thank you so very much for helping me understand

 

[Maid Marie]

Interesting thanks! So in your view, what makes CotN any different than Pentecostal/AoG?

The #1 difference would be speaking in tongues/prayer language.

The other issue which I picked up after attending friends' P/C churches is that while we don't believe in cessationalism, we don't emphasize the gifts all the time. Instead, we'll stress the Wesleyan Quadrilateral much more with reason being a chief "leg" after scripture. The other two are tradition and experience. We also emphasize the fruits of the Spirit a lot more. You will also find a few of us that are more liturgical in practice. I serve at one.

I do not accept the Pentecostal teaching of receiving the Holy Spirit "baptism" after being born again. Several scriptures seem to indicate we receive the fullness of the Spirit when we believe (1 Corinthians 12:13; Acts 19:1-6; Ephesians 1:13, 22-23; Galatians 3:2-5; Col 2:9-10)

What you will most likely find is the pastor wording it like this: at salvation, we have all of the Holy Spirit. Entire Sanctification is when God has all of us. But there might be some who word it closer to what you've experienced. It would depend on the pastor.

I would love it if we could have communion every service, but for now my church has it once or twice a month. I believe the majority of CotN churches have it once a month.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

thanks for your clarification! Even still, once a month is better than what I've had in the past. I grew up in a church that did it once a year, the Wednesday before Easter, and the AG church I started in recently never did it in the 2 years I went there...

As for the Holy Spirit, the way you worded it seems to go along with my view. Not that my view is what's important, it's what scripture says. But I believe I align with both UMC and CotN....

 

[GraceSeeker]

But I believe I align with both UMC and CotN....

And probably Free Methodist as well.