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Magnetic Field

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Dominus Fidelis

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I've been reading a bit on the earth's decreasing electromagnetic field. It seems both the secular and creationist sides agrees that it has decreased 10% or so in the last 150 years.

Reference:

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/earth_magnetic_031212.html
http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-242.htm

The point of contention is that the secular would argue that this decrease is just part of a cycle of increase/decrease, whereas the creationists say it is a continual trend of decrease.

The secular claim of a magnetic field reversals is true and observable in some rocks, but there is also evidence that the reversals of magnetic strength can occur rapidly back and forth from specific events.

A counterpoint to the creationist position is that the total energy of the field is constant because what is lost in one pole is added to the other. This is also true to some extent. Dr Humphrey's claims to show in a sample span of 30 years that it is true that some energy is added to the other pole, but not enough to counter the amount lost, so that there is still a significant overall loss, which points to a young earth.

Reference:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v20/i2/magnetic.asp

An interesting related point is that a decreasing electromagnetic field allows more cosmic radiation into the atmosphere, thus tainting any radiometric dating tests, which means the earth will "look" older than it is when relying on radiometric testing.

Thoughts?
 

Captain_Jack_Sparrow

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The last point is totally bogus. Why don't you check out the different radioactive decay modes and what affects them and what does not.

Also check out geodynamo models by Gary Glatzmaier.

The decaying field argument is one of the worst in the Creationist arsenal.
 
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bdfoster

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Defens0rFidei said:
The point of contention is that the secular would argue that this decrease is just part of a cycle of increase/decrease, whereas the creationists say it is a continual trend of decrease.

True. This does seem to be the heart of the issue. Humphreys, in the article cited above, claims that the free-decay model is the proper one for explaining the earth’s magnetic field. In this model the field starts at a given strength and simply decays over time. The mainstream model (I hate to use the word secular because it is used to mean “long term” when referring to geomagnetism) is that of a fluid dynamo, in which energy from the earth’s rotation maintains the magnetic field. Because of the fluid nature of the outer core the field can vary in strength and even reverse. Which model is best?

There is a thorough treatment of geomagnetism from a creationist perspective available on the web. Unfortunately I don't have enough posts to post the web address :mad: . It was written by Ivan E. Rouse, who was at the time (1983) associated with Loma Linda University. The article was originally published in the Loma Linda publication, Origins v. 10 (1983). I realize this is 20 years old but it’s only 10 years older than the Humphreys Impact article cited above. In Part II of the Rouse paper he gives a summary and critique of both the free-decay and dynamo models. He gives several problems with the free-decay model and with Barnes’ original research. He also gives some problems with the dynamo model but he concludes, “The dynamo model seems to be the only viable model for the source of the earth's field and as such is accepted by virtually all geophysicists. This doesn't make it the right model but it does seem to be the best model available at the present time”. Now I don’t want to quote Dr. Rouse out of context. He is a creationist, and is convinced that the earth is young. But I don’t think the free-decay model is accepted by any one without a young-earth agenda, and even some young-earthers don’t buy it.

Defens0rFidei said:
An interesting related point is that a decreasing electromagnetic field allows more cosmic radiation into the atmosphere, thus tainting any radiometric dating tests, which means the earth will "look" older than it is when relying on radiometric testing.

I don’t think you want to use that. First of all, cosmic rays have no effect on radioactive decay rates. But even if they did, and even if the free-decay model were right, the magnetic field would have been greater in the past, allowing less cosmic radiation into the atmosphere. Of course this would affect cosmogenic dating methods like C14 and Be10.

Brent
 
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lucaspa

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Defens0rFidei said:
The last point is totally bogus
Why?
Because the long-lived radioactive series can't be influenced by cosmic rays. There is no isotope in the sequence that can be generated by cosmic rays interacting with a nucleus.

The original position is based solely on C14. C14 is generated from N14 by having N14 hit by a cosmic ray and converting one neutron to one proton. C14 decays to N14 by emitting a beta particle (essentially an electron) and converting the neutron back to a proton.

So, yes, an increase in cosmic rays could cause an increase in C14 and thus throw C14 dating off a bit. However, the point is bogus because C14 isn't used to give the long ages of the earth because it's half life is only 5,450 years and thus C14 can't date anything older than 50,000 years.

Now, C14 dating and the amount of C14 in the atmosphere can be checked by
1. Calibrating against known historical dates.
2. Looking at pockets of gasses trapped inside glaciers at times in the past. Since the age there is calculated using the layers of annual snowfall, we get a date independent of C14 and can tell how much C14 was in the atomosphere relative to N14.
 
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RVincent

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Because the long-lived radioactive series can't be influenced by cosmic rays. There is no isotope in the sequence that can be generated by cosmic rays interacting with a nucleus.

The original position is based solely on C14. C14 is generated from N14 by having N14 hit by a cosmic ray and converting one neutron to one proton. C14 decays to N14 by emitting a beta particle (essentially an electron) and converting the neutron back to a proton.

So, yes, an increase in cosmic rays could cause an increase in C14 and thus throw C14 dating off a bit. However, the point is bogus because C14 isn't used to give the long ages of the earth because it's half life is only 5,450 years and thus C14 can't date anything older than 50,000 years.

Now, C14 dating and the amount of C14 in the atmosphere can be checked by
1. Calibrating against known historical dates.
2. Looking at pockets of gasses trapped inside glaciers at times in the past. Since the age there is calculated using the layers of annual snowfall, we get a date independent of C14 and can tell how much C14 was in the atomosphere relative to N14.

Excuse me, but what does all this have to do with Robotech?

Just kidding, please continue.
 
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Larry

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Defens0rFidei said:
The point of contention is that the secular would argue that this decrease is just part of a cycle of increase/decrease, whereas the creationists say it is a continual trend of decrease.

And out of the two positions, which one started with a predertimined conclusion, then tried to make the evidence fit the conclusion? I'll give you one guess. ;)
 
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Dominus Fidelis

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Larry said:
And out of the two positions, which one started with a predertimined conclusion, then tried to make the evidence fit the conclusion? I'll give you one guess. ;)

Both, perhaps. But at least one is being honest about its preconceptions.
 
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