Macroevolution:

OldWiseGuy said:

It would take trillions of steps. Not enough time for that.

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That's ridiculously and demonstrably wrong.
Humans and sunflowers aren't even seperated by that amount of mutations.

It's really remarkable how creationists/evolution-deniers consistently expose a deep and vast ignorance about the scientific theory they insist on arguing against.

OldWiseGuy said:

I had a checkup yesterday. My doctor was surprised when I told him I don't drink water after he had commented that I must have been "super hydrated" for my urine test as my urine was so clear (TMI I know). We then reviewed my daily fluid intake which is about 48 oz. comprised of coffee, milk, beer, and a marguarita.

He was also surprised that my lipid panel was so good as I had refused to double my dose of atorvastatin that was arbitrarily imposed on me a year before by another doctor.

He, like other doctors before him, was surprised that I am so healthy for a man of my age. One in particular was so taken that he stared at me speechless for a moment before commenting on my great health.

That said I think many doctors do know the 'secrets' of good health, but aren't in the business of offering it to their patients. And if history is any guide their patients wouldn't accept it anyway.

No doctor has ever asked my anything about my health habits, so I guess they already know.

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I know a little bit about the vanity which flows from having people consistently underestimating your age, but I do not (usually) extol it at great length on here.

lesliedellow said:

That's world wide. In the good ol' US of A, less so.

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From the stats, I think it's safe to say that about half-ish have no problem with evolution theory.

It's not like the US has 80% creationists.
It's more around 45%

Still extremely high, compared to the rest of the civilized western world though. And quite disturbingly high. But still less then 50%.

OldWiseGuy said:

I had a checkup yesterday. My doctor was surprised when I told him I don't drink water after he had commented that I must have been "super hydrated" for my urine test as my urine was so clear (TMI I know). We then reviewed my daily fluid intake which is about 48 oz. comprised of coffee, milk, beer, and a marguarita.

He was also surprised that my lipid panel was so good as I had refused to double my dose of atorvastatin that was arbitrarily imposed on me a year before by another doctor.

He, like other doctors before him, was surprised that I am so healthy for a man of my age. One in particular was so taken that he stared at me speechless for a moment before commenting on my great health.

That said I think many doctors do know the 'secrets' of good health, but aren't in the business of offering it to their patients. And if history is any guide their patients wouldn't accept it anyway.

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"little anecdote", therefor biology and medical science is a consipracy.

Uhu.

DogmaHunter said:

It's not like the US has 80% creationists.
It's more around 45%

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38% in the latest polls. And it's been dropping for the past two decades. Creationism is very much on the decline in the US.

pitabread said:

38% in the latest polls. And it's been dropping for the past two decades. Creationism is very much on the decline in the US.

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That's terrible. How are we Europeans going to feel superior to Americans if that continues?

DogmaHunter said:

That's ridiculously and demonstrably wrong.
Humans and sunflowers aren't even seperated by that amount of mutations.

It's really remarkable how creationists/evolution-deniers consistently expose a deep and vast ignorance about the scientific theory they insist on arguing against.

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Have you counted the number of chemical, biological (even electrical) changes that must occur before an observable change occurs in an organ, tissue, or cell? It has to be a series of profound events a mile long even for the smallest change to happen.

AV1611VET said:

Jesus is coming soon.

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Winter has been coming for a long time now as well.

I'm starting to doubt it will ever arrive.

lesliedellow said:

That's terrible. How are we Europeans going to feel superior to Americans if that continues?

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Well, there's always the presidential elections every 4 years... Or less.

The last one was pretty hilarious.

lesliedellow said:

That's terrible. How are we Europeans going to feel superior to Americans if that continues?

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Well, you guys didn't elect Trump...

lesliedellow said:

I know a little bit about the vanity which flows from having people consistently underestimating your age, but I do not (usually) extol it at great length on here.

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My doctors know my age. However I was once called a liar by a guy who didn't believe I was as old as I said. I had to show him my ID to prove it. He was astounded, embarrassed; and bought me a beer.

The late Paul C. Bragg, in his book "The Miracle of Fasting", called the 'bible of health' by disciples, warned that those who went down the path of true health would see their loved ones and friends sicken and die long before their time while you carried on with a full vibrant life. I read this many years ago. It's true. My siblings and many of my friends are gone, just as Bragg said. It was always my wish that my brother and sister would heed my advice. They were not able or willing to do so, and they are gone.

DogmaHunter said:

View attachment 205873

For a fullscale view:

https://www.edwardtufte.com/bboard/images/0003ti-11699.gif

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Thanks for the graph, interesting. What proof, if any, of the graph sequence being exactly as projected? Are there any unaltered images of one species (kind) evolving into a different species (kind)? If so, could you provide a link as I have been unable to find one?

Species - "Biology. the major subdivision of a genus or subgenus, regarded as the basic category of biological classification, composed of related individuals that resemble one another, are able to breed among themselves, but are not able to breed with members of another species."

...not addressed to anyone in particular...

I am sorry that there is no scientific evidence for a Fundamentalist interpretation of Genesis 1-11, but facts are facts. The problem is that too many people think the Bible is intended to be interested in a crassly literal fashion and not in a LITERARY way. Genesis 1-3 is full of puns and inside jokes that only a Hebrew speaker would notice. The Jews have always insisted that Genesis 1-3 was not to be taken literally but allegorically and since they WROTE the book, I think we need to pay attention to them.

The story of Adam and Eve is a "just-so" story. The Catholic Church insists that it contains some historical details but also insists that it is not to be taken in a simple literal fashion.

Bad scientific education usually runs parallel with bad literary education and both together lead to true Biblical illiteracy. I am sorry that the world is not simple, and that you cannot understand it without many non-intuitive ideas being introduced, but that is REALITY. We must deal with reality, not with what we wish was true. I would not try to harmonize science and Genesis 1-3 if I were you because they are two different types of narratives with different goals and agendas. Accept both of the facts that Man was specially created by God and that he came from an ape ancestor. Exactly how all this was accomplished is not clear, but that it did happen is clear. That is all you need to worry about. Let the big boffins argue about the fine details.

First of all, Monogenesis is enjoined on us because there is no clear way in the minds of the Popes to reconcile Polygenesis with the doctrine of the Sin of our first parents and the Fall. If there were a way to do so, then it could be allowed. Several scholars have proposed solutions but none have been accepted.

Secondly, if God truly made a first pair of humans by a special act of creation, it is possible that he "reset" their genetics to make it "safe" to practice incest at least for the first several generations. God could even have given them "low probability" genetic combinations at first to prevent problems.

In one of his Lazarus Long novels Robert Heinlein describes a brother and sister of the same parents who share NO genes in common. They each received half of their parents genes but none from the same half. Now there are a virtually infinite number of combinations you can make like that from just two parents. And then you can get variants where only 0.1% genes are held in common and any fraction in between that and 100%.

That may be how God did it in the beginning. This would take several generations of miracles, but it would royally screw up all the attendant probabilities. None of the scientists takes this possibility into account.

And then we need to be frank. We know very little about human origins. It appears that BIOLOGICAL humans of some kind have been around for about 2 million years give or take). BIOLOGICAL Homo sapiens has been around for ~130,000 years. But there is something very strange that happened between 70,000 and 30,000 years ago.

Homo sapiens became an artist, a linguist, a complex tool maker, a religious believer, a member of a society with family structures and pair-bonds, and several other things that distinguish him from the BIOLOGICAL humans that came before. Was this new kind of H. sapiens not only BIOLOGICALY human but newly made as THEOLOGICALLY human? Was this the historical point of ensoulment?

And after that happened, the other species of man all died out and were replaced by the New Man. So if THEOLOGICAL humans arose not from pre-humans but WITHIN a BIOLOGICALLY human community in which they kept to themselves, the issue of Polygenism becomes moot.

These are just some of the possibilities.

Another note on Dr. Collin's book. He warns that a Fundamentalist literal reading of Genesis is dangerous because when a naive believer discovers the overwhelming scientific case for evolution, it can endanger his faith. Well, here we are! What he predicted has happened.

The problem is neither in science or religion but rather in a type of religion that does not respect the important distinctions between science and theology.

Humility is the point to be taken. We are not asked by God to understand all things but rather to believe in some things. Sometimes belief is easy. Sometimes it is hard. That is why one must have a prayer life and devotions to keep one properly in touch with God and His providence.

by Art Sippo, M.D.

DogmaHunter said:

You should come out more and talk to more people.
The vast majority of christians world-wide, have no problems at all with mainstream biology.

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Great, then it should present no problem, with billions of fossils and untold number of photographs, that are available to find an unaltered image of one "kind" evolving into a different "kind" so do you have a link for that?

OldWiseGuy said:

Have you counted the number of chemical, biological (even electrical) changes that must occur before an observable change occurs in an organ, tissue, or cell?

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1

It has to be a series of profound events a mile long even for the smallest change to happen.

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No, it does not.

In any case... the human and chimp genome are seperated by some 40-million-ish genetic differences.

The number that it took to get from the common ancestor to both us and respectively chimps, is probably less, as today's difference is the result of 2 independent evolutionary lines.

To illustrate... take a string, for example "abcdef" and reproduce it in 2 strings.
In both strings, introduce 1 change. For example:
- "bbcdef"
and
-"abcddf"

=> both are now seperated by 2 differences

So what you said about the "trillions" of required changes, is as false as it gets.
That there isn't enough time, is false as well.

There's a timespan of millions of years (good for hundreds of thousands of generations) and furthermore, changes occur in individuals and population sizes typically number in the hundreds of thousands or even millions as well, per generation.

Given an average mutation rate of some 40-ish per newborn (a conservative average estimate), that results in millions of mutations in individuals per generation. These millions of mutated genes serve as the set on which natural selection then acts. Some of them will be beneficial (higher chance of survival), some will be harmfull (these die), most will be neutral (they'll just tag along with whatever happens).

Those that reproduce, then carry on their mutated genes to the next generation, where they then accumulate with the new changes of that generation, etc.

It's not rocket science.

pitabread said:

Well, you guys didn't elect Trump...

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True. But Le Pen did manage to get to the final rounds in France. She got her bottom handed to her then, but it's still rather disturbing.

And then there's that whole Brexit thingy. But if we are to go by what the stereotypical brit says, then Brittain isn't really Europe, but rather it's own proper continent, so maybe we can let that slide

DogmaHunter said:

View attachment 205874

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Yes, I have seen that image, a few thousand times, more or less, so how does that provide proof of one "kind" evolving into a different "kind"?

Species - "Biology. the major subdivision of a genus or subgenus, regarded as the basic category of biological classification, composed of related individuals that resemble one another, are able to breed among themselves, but are not able to breed with members of another species."

As an example, I can find numerous images such as this one. What I would like to see is an image of a fossil that immediately preceded this subject (fish) and then the transition of what evolved from the fish, can you provide a link that would have that information?

DogmaHunter said:

I'm starting to doubt it will ever arrive.

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Interesting, almost 2k years ago the Scriptures foretold of people scoffing at the idea of Jesus' return in the latter day, but that really has nothing to do with how life came to be.

OldWiseGuy said:

I believe what I can reasonably understand, or see demonstrated.

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Do you believe chemistry works? And if so is it because you reasonably understand quantum mechanics?

This includes most of science. I work with stuff that science has created every day, so it's basically evolution (as it pertains to the 'origin of species') that I don't accept.

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So you don't use medicine or doctors or anything that is underlain by biology?

Not everyone is cut out to view life through a microscope. I'll let the chemists formulate the paint, and I'll put it on the wall.

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And you will have "faith" that the paint will work. Unless you fully understand latex chemistry, colloidal dispersions, DLVO theory etc. Right?