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Macro-Evolution

Oliver

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Originally posted by ELWAR
Shalom Oliver,
What you fail to realize is that what a person believes about the subject of origins lays the metaphysical foundation for what they believe about everything else.

Shalom ELWAR,
If what you said is true, why are there scientists of so many different religions holding the theory of evolution as the best explanation for the origin of species?
I do think that the ToE is mostly right and respect the works of scientists in this field, yet I do not agree with the strong atheism of some of them. So it seems that accepting this theory did not lay the same metaphysical foundation for me than it did for them...

Originally posted by ELWAR

The fact that evolution deals with the subject of origins places this philosophy in the arena of metaphysics. This is another reason why evolution is a religious philosophy applied to science.

Oh, really? So in your opinion, there can be no scientific approach to the question of origins, because any theory dealing with this subject is de facto a religious philosophy? So much for the likes of Dembski and Behe who try to defend a scientific approach to creationism, then!

Seriously, I don't see what this subject would be so different from other fields of science. If I remember well, a few centuries ago, christians (the Roman catholic church) forbid the practice of surgery because the human body was sacred. Back in this time, any theory dealing with the subject of human health was condidered a religious philosophy because it touched the "ultimate creation of God".
Do you want to hold the same position now for the subject of origins?
 
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Oliver

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Originally posted by ELWAR

In conclusion, most logical and rational scientists are clearly aware that The Second Law of Thermodynamics demonstrates the impossibility of chemical evolution.

Could you back up this claim? It seems to me that the vast majority of scientists in the field would disagree with it.

[edit] especially when one of the main creationist groups (answers in genesis) lists this argument as one that "should definitely not be used".
 
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Oliver

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Originally posted by LouisBooth

...and you missed mine. This theory is the only one that predicts what times does to this degree. That's why it is wrong. :)

Time is involved in most (if not all) scientific theories, in about any field of science. I don't see why modelling the effect of time would invalidate a scientific theory. Care to explain?

you said earlier: "Evoultionary theory is the only one I know of that uses time as a factor and says X happens when given large amounts of time. "

Then let me fill you in: other theories do this as well.
_ "the theory of" radioactive decay roughly says that given enough time, a certain amount of "particules alpha" (sorry, I don't know the english name) will be emitted. Time is a crutial factor here.
_ chemical kinetics (again I'm not sure of the correct english term) uses time in about the same way, saying that given enough time, a certain amount of molecules will have reacted.
 
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Shalom Ronin,


You wrote>>>"Just a bit of advice. You should be aware of who you are discussing a point with instead of assuming a deficiency on the part of your opponent. I stopped having to prove my proficiency in physics after attaining my current position. The following references not only address the notion of "closed" thermodynamic systems (which may include the universe as a whole given certain contraints) but also skims the possibility of thermodynamic laws providing a motive "agent" for evolutionary processes."

My response>>>I strongly suggests that you take your own advise because you have no idea who your opponent is. The fact that you have to refer to your scientific credentials and your education only indicates that you lack the real scientific ammunition to defeat the hard scientific facts of my positions. I will continue my logical refutation of your bogus evolutionary arguments, after I have completed my little research project, because many of your arguments are based upon false assumptions woven in outdated scientific research. Therefore, I will return later to give another lesson on THERMODYNAMICS.
 
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Shalom Ronin,

After reading your posts on thermodynamics and entropy, I see absolutely no evidence indicating that thermodynamics woven in the entropy factor can explain the origin of a physical universe from nothingness and the origination of life from dead matter; therefore, the pseudoscientific research papers you presented are based purely upon a person's faith based interpretation of entropy and the second law of thermodynamics. Those papers are really sketched in a VOODOO explanation of the thermodynamic laws of nature because there are no historic scientific observations that confirm your conclusions. The weight of scientific evidences indicates that if the entire universe is an isolated system, then, according to the second law of thermodynamics, the energy in the universe available for useful work has always been decreasing. However, as one goes back in time, the energy available for useful work would eventually exceed the total energy in the universe that, according to the first law of thermodynamics, remains constant. This is an impossible condition, thus implying the universe had a beginning. A further consequence of the second law is that when the universe began, it was more organized and complex than it is today—not in a highly disorganized and random state as assumed by evolutionists and proponents of the big bang theory. Although the universe appears to be in a state of expansion, it did not expand from a chaotic or disorderly explosion.

Creationists have long acknowledged ¾ in fact emphasized ¾ that order can and does increase in certain special types of open systems, but this is no proof that order increases in every open system! The statement that "the earth is an open system" is a vacuous statement containing no specific information, since all systems are open systems. The Second Law of Thermodynamics could well be stated as follows: "In any ordered system, open or closed, there exists a tendency for that system to decay to a state of disorder, which tendency can only be suspended or reversed by an external source of ordering energy directed by an informational program and transformed through an ingestion-storage-converter mechanism into the specific work required to build up the complex structure of that system."


You wrote>>>"The fact that the universe can reverse the entropic process leads to possibilities previously ignored when assessing which of the three models (open, closed, or flat) most probably represents the future of the universe. After analyzing the models, the conclusion reached here is that the open model is only an expanded version of the closed model and therefore is not open, and the closed model will never collapse to a big crunch and, therefore, is not closed. Which leaves a modified flat model, oscillating forever between limited phases of expansion and contraction (a universe in "dynamic equilibrium") as the only feasible choice."

My response>>>There exist no hard scientific evidence that the universe can reverse its increasing entropy long enough to cause an imaginary evolution with in the universe. For example, even if the universe conceivably could oscillate, it could never have been oscillating for an infinite time. The laws of thermodynamics compel the maximum diameter of the universe to increase from cycle to cycle. Thus, such a universe could look forward to an very long future woven in a finite past because the entropy predicts that each contraction and expansion would become weaker and weaker over time, indicating that the universe could only be trillions of years old rather than billions. Therefore, thermodynamics does not give a logical and satisfactory answers to the question of naturalistic
evolution of the cosmos. In addition, the roots of the oscillating universe theory originated from the soils of eastern mystical religious philosophy, but not from the established facts of science.

In summation, the evolution model cannot yet even explain the Second Law, but the creation model predicts it! The creationist is not embarrassed or perplexed by entropy, since it is exactly what he expects. The creation model postulates a perfect creation of all things completed during the period of special creation in the beginning. From this model, the creationist naturally predicts limited horizontal changes within the created entities (e.g., variations within biologic kinds, enabling them to adapt to environmental changes). If "vertical" changes occur, however, from one level of order to another, they would have to go in the downward direction, toward lower order. The Creator, both omniscient and omnipotent, made all things perfect in the beginning. No process of evolutionary change could improve them, but deteriorative changes could disorder them.

Not only does the creation model predict the entropy principle, but the entropy principle directly points to creation. That is, if all things are now running down to disorder, they must originally have been in a state of high order. Since there is no naturalistic process which could produce such an initial condition, its cause must have been supernatural. The only adequate cause of the initial order and complexity of the universe must have been an omniscient Pro-grammer, and the cause of its boundless power an omnipotent Energizer. The Second Law of Thermodynamics, with its principle of increasing entropy, both repudiates the evolution model and strongly confirms the creation model.
 
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LouisBooth

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"Time is involved in most (if not all) scientific theories, in about any field of science. I don't see why modelling the effect of time would invalidate a scientific theory. Care to explain? "

Yes, this is the only theory that adds SO MANY factors in conjunction with a time change. Thus it is unpredictable and also shows us this evidence by its mathematical impossiblity. :) Given millions of years a tornado will NEVER go through a junk yard and create a 747 in working order even if it happens once a day.

"chemical kinetics (again I'm not sure of the correct english term) uses time in about the same way, saying that given enough time, a certain amount of molecules will have reacted."

Both of these theories have a very clear cut case shown in the short term and an intermediate term. Macro does not and never will :)
 
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Satoshi

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Originally posted by LouisBooth
"Time is involved in most (if not all) scientific theories, in about any field of science. I don't see why modelling the effect of time would invalidate a scientific theory. Care to explain? "

Yes, this is the only theory that adds SO MANY factors in conjunction with a time change. Thus it is unpredictable and also shows us this evidence by its mathematical impossiblity. :)

Evolution is unpredictable and thus mathematically impossible because it involves changes over time? Come on LouisBooth, are you really this misinformed or are you just trying to embarass Christians? Neither act should be continued, IMO.


"chemical kinetics (again I'm not sure of the correct english term) uses time in about the same way, saying that given enough time, a certain amount of molecules will have reacted."

Both of these theories have a very clear cut case shown in the short term and an intermediate term. Macro does not and never will :)

Wow, I'm convinced! Was it the total lack of evidence or the smiley at the end of the sentence? Not even Sherlock Holmes could answer the paralyzing argument by assertion!
 
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Oliver

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Originally posted by LouisBooth

Yes, this is the only theory that adds SO MANY factors in conjunction with a time change.

:confused: What factors are you refering to?

Originally posted by LouisBooth

Thus it is unpredictable and also shows us this evidence by its mathematical impossiblity. :) Given millions of years a tornado will NEVER go through a junk yard and create a 747 in working order even if it happens once a day.

As I already said, the aim of evolutionnary theories is not to predict anything, but to explain what happened.

What "mathematical impossiblity" are you refering to?

Your analogy reflects, I think, a misundertanding of what evolutionnary theories says, and especially of how netural selection works.

Originally posted by LouisBooth

Both of these theories have a very clear cut case shown in the short term and an intermediate term. Macro does not and never will :)

Evolution does have a very clear cut case in the short term, and it is what you (and others) call micro-evolution. Calling the long term effects of evolution with a different name, and then arguing that since it is not a short term event, it is not as well supported, seems rather specious to me.
 
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Originally posted by messenjah
If macro evolution is to be taught, then so should Creation, they both have science to back them up, and they both have theories, so they should both be taught. Remember, in Christianity, no decision at all is still a decision and we should give the kids the oppurtunity to hear both sides.

wow, this argument is old. have you logically thought this through? if we open up schools to christianity we have to open them up to every creation story ever! even ones that people make up must be taught to keep things equal.

bringing creationism to school violates the 1ST amendment of the US constitution where it states that congress shall pass no law enstating a religion.

finally, creationism has no proof: zippo, nada, nothing, zero, etc. "Creationism is supported by faith and must be because it isn't supported by anything else" --Stephen Hawking

on the contrary, micro and macro evolution are scientific FACT with an abundance of evidence and even observation. i explained this in another thread: it's theory because not everything is known about the history of life, but we do KNOW that we evolved from a common ancestor.

well, there you go.
 
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LouisBooth

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"bringing creationism to school violates the 1ST amendment of the US constitution where it states that congress shall pass no law enstating a religion.
"

As does teaching evolution as fact ;)

"on the contrary, micro and macro evolution are scientific FACT "

This is a wrong statement. Micro is fact, macro is not or it would be the LAW of evolution.
 
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Originally posted by LouisBooth
bringing creationism to school violates the 1ST amendment of the US constitution where it states that congress shall pass no law enstating a religion.
"

As does teaching evolution as fact ;)

As far as I know it has always been called the "theory of evolution." The facts are what support it.

"on the contrary, micro and macro evolution are scientific FACT

This is a wrong statement. Micro is fact, macro is not or it would be the LAW of evolution.

Actually, evolution is a scientific fact. It may not be an absolute fact or truth but it is widely accepted by the majority of scientists and, basically, it works. If you have something better, we'd be glad to address it.
 
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LouisBooth

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"The facts are what support it. "

and they are also what shows its flaws and inherent "wrongness".

"but it is widely accepted by the majority of scientists and, basically, it works"

Really? Not last time I checked...

"If you have something better, we'd be glad to address it."

*sigh* thats not how science works. You don't adhere to a wrong idea until another one comes along. Each idea is on its own merit, not if its better then others.
 
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Originally posted by LouisBooth
"The facts are what support it. "

and they are also what shows its flaws and inherent "wrongness".

And your evidence is?

"but it is widely accepted by the majority of scientists and, basically, it works"

Really? Not last time I checked...

Come on Louis, if you're not going to be serious, this is a waste of time. I'm calling you out again. What is your evidence that a majority of scientist do not accept evolution?

"If you have something better, we'd be glad to address it."

*sigh* thats not how science works. You don't adhere to a wrong idea until another one comes along. Each idea is on its own merit, not if its better then others.

I didn't say that it did. I'm saying that if you have an alternative, it would help your position.
 
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LouisBooth

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"What is your evidence that a majority of scientist do not accept evolution? "

in the book survying the religious landscape a poll (acutally a few of them) show the majority of people don't believe in evolution and I'm pretty sure 40 or 50 percent of college grad where creationists..hmm.....I'll have to check on that last one..

"I didn't say that it did. I'm saying that if you have an alternative, it would help your position."

*chuckles* and I'm saying that should have nothing to do with my position if you're a true scientist ;)
 
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Oliver

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Originally posted by LouisBooth
"What is your evidence that a majority of scientist do not accept evolution? "

in the book survying the religious landscape a poll (acutally a few of them) show the majority of people don't believe in evolution and I'm pretty sure 40 or 50 percent of college grad where creationists..hmm.....I'll have to check on that last one..

There is a huge difference between the opinion of the american public and the opinion of the american scientists regarding the validity of the ToE.

A Gallup poll from 1997 showed that although about half of the american population (can't remember the exact figure) believed in a creationist model, only 5% of the american scientists did, and only 0.14% of the american scientists involved in a related field did.
 
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Satoshi

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Originally posted by LouisBooth
"The facts are what support it. "

and they are also what shows its flaws and inherent "wrongness".

What facts are these? Granted, I'm not a biologist, but last time I looked there were quite a few pieces of evidence that supported evolution, such as the fossil record and biogeography. So far, the best opposing evidence that I've seen creationists give is that plate tectonics is building mountains too quickly for the Earth to be billions of years old and that erosion is tearing down the mountains too quickly for the Earth to be billions of years old.


"If you have something better, we'd be glad to address it."

*sigh* thats not how science works. You don't adhere to a wrong idea until another one comes along. Each idea is on its own merit, not if its better then others.

On the contrary, the best theory is not necessarily the one that explains every fact, but the one that explains the most facts. Facts that cannot be explained with the best theory may be used to modify said theory or may be used to create another theory which explains facts better than said theory.
 
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i just love the "evolution is wrong because some guy in a book said so" mentality.

wondering why scientists have different views than the general public? because the general public as a whole is a moron, idiot, cretin when it comes to science. the scientific community is (obviously) scientifically literate.

PS. this year marks the first year where the majority (53%) of americans accept evolution.
 
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Originally posted by LouisBooth
in the book survying the religious landscape a poll (acutally a few of them) show the majority of people don't believe in evolution and I'm pretty sure 40 or 50 percent of college grad where creationists..hmm.....I'll have to check on that last one..

The latest comprehensive figures for the U.S. can be found at:

http://www.nsf.gov/sbe/srs/seind02/append/c7/at07-10.pdf

Those with graduate/professional degrees accept evolution at 81%.
Those with BS/BA degrees at 67%
Those who graduated high school 49%
Those who did not did not complete HS 45%

(Only 76% of those with graduate/professional degrees knew the it took a year for the Earth to go around the Sun. Scary!)

It also shows that science education correlates with the acceptance of evolution as well as attentiveness to science.

It is my experence that science understanding among those who support creationism in online forums is extremely bad. Recently in the talk.origins newsgroup a creationist in an attempt to debunk isochron dating argued that 5/0=5. !?!? No amount of evidence including several simple proofs that this is not so could get her to change her mind.
 
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