Macho vs feminine

[Avniel]

No, that's an "honor code" mentality brought up from the South. Southern whites in the backwoods and sticks do the same thing. Wealthy southerners were once the same way ("Suh, you have sullied mah honah, and ah demand satisfaction!")

Most of the people in the neighborhood are either Jamaican(all types from doctors to drug dealers) and then there is the projects with the americans. You have half a million dollar homes filled with third world immigrants and poor americans. The reality is people out here will kill you and take your life it has nothing to do with honor it has to do with making it home at night. An example is a group of my friends had sex with a confused woman that had a boyfriend in jail. He came out of jail and found out and approached my friends. One day I pulled up and I was on the phone he walked up to me and asked what I was looking at. THe situation esculated to me and him almost getting into a fight someone came and grabbed me. The person that broke up the fight informed me "you don't want problems with those guys they are demons any problem with them you are going have to take it there." If me and him would have fought because he thought I was looking at him he would have killed me or tried to because of that.

It's a me over you mentality.

 

[RDKirk]

Most of the people in the neighborhood are either Jamaican(all types from doctors to drug dealers) and then there is the projects with the americans. You have half a million dollar homes filled with third world immigrants and poor americans. The reality is people out here will kill you and take your life it has nothing to do with honor it has to do with making it home at night. An example is a group of my friends had sex with a confused woman that had a boyfriend in jail. He came out of jail and found out and approached my friends. One day I pulled up and I was on the phone he walked up to me and asked what I was looking at. THe situation esculated to me and him almost getting into a fight someone came and grabbed me. The person that broke up the fight informed me "you don't want problems with those guys they are demons any problem with them you are going have to take it there." If me and him would have fought because he thought I was looking at him he would have killed me or tried to because of that.

It's a me over you mentality.

No, you almost fought because you did not back away when he first challenged you. That was poor judgment on your part.

Part of that as well is retaining friendship with men who would have sex with a "confused woman" who had a boyfriend in jail--more poor judgment on your part--which put you into the middle of a problem they caused.

And the pseduo "honor code" mentality is not limited to Southerners in the world, but is a characteristic of the South in America.

 

[seeingeyes]

Hahaha urban dictionary as a resource

It's a good source for "how people actually use this word" rather than "what this word means". The two seem to line up in this particular case.

 

[DZoolander]

lol - true enough.

I just can't get away from the fact that 90% of that site (seemingly) is goofy "city names + burrito" types of entries.

 

[Avniel]

No, you almost fought because you did not back away when he first challenged you. That was poor judgment on your part.

Part of that as well is retaining friendship with men who would have sex with a "confused woman" who had a boyfriend in jail--more poor judgment on your part--which put you into the middle of a problem they caused.

And the pseduo "honor code" mentality is not limited to Southerners in the world, but is a characteristic of the South in America.

No I didn't back down because he knocked on my car door and approached me while I was on the phone asking me if I was looking at him. I replied no then I called my friend over to ask if he knew him, after he continued to press me and I said no I wasn't looking at him, all while I was still on the phone. Then I began to laugh because I thought it was crazy, lack of self control I know but I found it extremely funny he's going off on me because I was looking at him and I was on my phone in my car looking straight forward. At that point he became increasingly angry and opened my car door, I pushed him squared up in my stance he swung I dipped and was about to go for a double leg take down but my friend grabbed me. Then the guy kept talking and talking and said some lame gang name to me, and told me to check his resume I informed him he didn't look like the type of person to carry one. To me I didn't see the possibility of really to really back away because I didn't even recognize it as that type of situation I heard the story afterwards, I was sitting down I had to stand up to protect myself and after he swung............well he turned up and I was going to turn him down.

I think the laugh was probably my fault but he was standing there just talking about looking at him and I'm in the car looking straight forward he comes from behind I don't know how I could have seen him. I couldn't help myself even knowing what I know now I would have drove off but I would have still had to laugh.

No some friends really aren't that bad but people have cousins. Well one friend really likes her and still deals with her, he's my friend's cousin really but you know that's all family considered really. The other one he didn't really like her they found out that each other were dealing with each other and the two almost fought. It's not like it was something they all knew prior to finding it out and these are childhood friends that if I don't have anything to eat they would feed me I them.

It's not about honor it's about the threat of violence and taking down the other person before you get hurt.

 

[RDKirk]

No I didn't back down because he knocked on my car door and approached me while I was on the phone asking me if I was looking at him. I replied no then I called my friend over to ask if he knew him, after he continued to press me and I said no I wasn't looking at him, all while I was still on the phone. Then I began to laugh because I thought it was crazy, lack of self control I know but I found it extremely funny he's going off on me because I was looking at him and I was on my phone in my car looking straight forward. At that point he became increasingly angry and opened my car door, I pushed him squared up in my stance he swung I dipped and was about to go for a double leg take down but my friend grabbed me. Then the guy kept talking and talking and said some lame gang name to me, and told me to check his resume I informed him he didn't look like the type of person to carry one. To me I didn't see the possibility of really to really back away because I didn't even recognize it as that type of situation I heard the story afterwards, I was sitting down I had to stand up to protect myself and after he swung............well he turned up and I was going to turn him down.

I think the laugh was probably my fault but he was standing there just talking about looking at him and I'm in the car looking straight forward he comes from behind I don't know how I could have seen him. I couldn't help myself even knowing what I know now I would have drove off but I would have still had to laugh.

No some friends really aren't that bad but people have cousins. Well one friend really likes her and still deals with her, he's my friend's cousin really but you know that's all family considered really. The other one he didn't really like her they found out that each other were dealing with each other and the two almost fought. It's not like it was something they all knew prior to finding it out and these are childhood friends that if I don't have anything to eat they would feed me I them.

It's not about honor it's about the threat of violence and taking down the other person before you get hurt.

You didn't mention a reason why, sitting in your car, you didn't just drive away. When I've been in hazardous areas in the military, I practiced defense driving techniques such as always leaving enough room in front of my car and driving to the outside lanes so that I have maneuvering room if someone pulls beside me and pokes an AK-47 out of his window.

I have also been armed, and when armed I made sure to be even more deferential to jerks...because there is no such thiing as a fist fight when one person has a gun.

 

[Avniel]

You didn't mention a reason why, sitting in your car, you didn't just drive away. When I've been in hazardous areas in the military, I practiced defense driving techniques such as always leaving enough room in front of my car and driving to the outside lanes so that I have maneuvering room if someone pulls beside me and pokes an AK-47 out of his window.

I have also been armed, and when armed I made sure to be even more deferential to jerks...because there is no such thiing as a fist fight when one person has a gun.

So you want me to drive and run out of my grandmothers neighborhood where my father stayed after they moved out of Harlem when they first came to the country......because I'm parked in the back of my friends house in my car on the phone and some asks me some questions I don't even know.

 

[DZoolander]

I have also been armed, and when armed I made sure to be even more deferential to jerks...because there is no such thiing as a fist fight when one person has a gun.

Exactly.

IMHO - if you're armed - you have even less license to act provocatively - because IMHO if you escalate a situation when you know you're armed and the other person doesn't (and something happens) - it's akin to murder.

 

[Avniel]

Exactly.

IMHO - if you're armed - you have even less license to act provocatively - because IMHO if you escalate a situation when you know you're armed and the other person doesn't (and something happens) - it's akin to murder.

Yeah but when you are at the back of childhood friend's house, talking on the phone with no problems in your community you might actually get caught off guard and not have a fire arm on you.

 

[DZoolander]

True.

I'm simply saying that if someone gets into a situation when they have a firearm on them - there's a different moral obligation to de-escalate the situation compared to if you are unarmed.

Like if I walk into a bar and pick a fight with you - I think there's a different level of culpability if I do so armed vs. unarmed. Or if you start to pick a fight with me - and I escalate the situation knowing that if worse comes to worse I can shoot you (if things are going badly for me/you're kicking my butt) - that's problematic.

 

[RDKirk]

So you want me to drive and run out of my grandmothers neighborhood where my father stayed after they moved out of Harlem when they first came to the country......because I'm parked in the back of my friends house in my car on the phone and some asks me some questions I don't even know.

Around the block, maybe to the local 7-11 to get a Slushy. That's probably all it would take to break that confrontational moment.

 

[Avniel]

Around the block, maybe to the local 7-11 to get a Slushy. That's probably all it would take to break that confrontational moment.

Yeah hind sight is 20/20 but imagine you are minding your business then you get a tap on your window in the back of a friend you've known since the 90s through your own family. You roll the window down and he's talking about looking at him in a direction that you aren't even facing who thinks that will result in a fight. When you reply "no brother I wasn't looking at you I was looking straight forward." The reality is a lot of these young guys can't go hand to hand and they go to jail and get raped and come out of prison and expect us to show them fear. I had no idea what was coming if I knew prior history I would have drove off when he tapped on the glass and I said no.

The reality is I was caught of gaurd then when he opened the door I felt I had no choice but to have my guard up then when he swung I felt like it was time to end the altercation.

You have to understand how comfortable I was, his aunt i have known since I was born I don't remember not knowing her. I was at my family's house around back about to go inside the basement.

 

[keith99]

No, MLK's approach worked--brilliantly--specifically because of historical factors. He was dealing with a local society that could be violent but withiin a larger society that would shun violence once shown how ugly it could be. To some extent, the revelation of the evils of Naziism helped (especially with regard to getting Jews involved).

He knew he was dealing with a society that could still feel shame (which would not have been the case with Nazi Germany).

Attempting to meet the violence of Southern police with civilian violence would not have worked at all. That would have allied the federal government with the state governments and the national media with the local media.

I'm not so sure I'd say that those in Nazi Germany couldn't still feel shame. The problem was far more that there was almost no one could even with the slightest hope of safety express either shame or outrage towards the official policy.

 

[Avniel]

No, MLK's approach worked--brilliantly--specifically because of historical factors. He was dealing with a local society that could be violent but withiin a larger society that would shun violence once shown how ugly it could be. To some extent, the revelation of the evils of Naziism helped (especially with regard to getting Jews involved).

He knew he was dealing with a society that could still feel shame (which would not have been the case with Nazi Germany).

Attempting to meet the violence of Southern police with civilian violence would not have worked at all. That would have allied the federal government with the state governments and the national media with the local media.

MLK's approach only worked because he had an extreme opposite in Malcolm X. As a nation with most people considering themselves Christian, a black "muslim" calling for the arming of all black people to defend themselves against whites that would harm them, was a bit alarming. Without that factor of violence it could possible be argued that MLK would not have been approached. The loss of power cognitively affects the human as the same as a loss of life. THere needs to be a drastic mentality change which typically in the history of the black american community has always involved some sort of violent undertone before the change takes place.

In fact MLK himself said “But I’m afraid that I’ve come upon something that I don’t know quite what to do with. I’m afraid that we’re integrating into a burning house." Before he died his movements were becoming more militant Malcolm X was becoming more passive both of their movement were starting to walk towards each other. It has even been argued that this is one of the reasons the US government had them killed.

Without the presence of violence you can not name one major change politically in the black community......not one.......our very start in north america has been based on violence. Particularly in america after the diaspora the black american has never moved forward towards equality without violence being a part of that method.

 

[RDKirk]

No, I was there at the time. Malcolm X was not that big a factor. He got some media, but he did not get any real movement by black people across the country.

Malcolm X could not bring together mass marches, call for boycotts, create sit-ins, fill up local jails...nor did he attempt to. Malcolm X's activities were much more local to the Northeast. In the rest the country, the Civil Rights Movement was organized from black churches, and Malcolm had very little influence over the majority of the staunchly Christian black community.

But unfortunately, as the Civil Rights struggle became largely resolvable in the South with the passage of the Civil Rights Act--a law that was really only effective against legislated segregation, Malcolm would have been very valuable with his greater understanding of the action of racism in the North.

King and the other Southern civil rights activists had much less understanding of how racism worked in the North and how the children of the Northern Migration differed in their psychology from southern blacks. Malcolm was not wrong in what he was saying was necessary for blacks in the north, such as concepts of self-sufficiency and to some extent, a measure of voluntary segregation.

And I still believe that it was Farrakhan who had Malcolm assassinated.

 

[DZoolander]

As a minor detour - I always found Malcolm to be a far more interesting individual.