(M.H-35)"Standard" Argument for Irreducible Complexity

[pittguy579]

So says the guy that thinks just saying "I am not wrong" is a smart argument.

Well you have been and will continue to be wrong
You were wrong about what Gould said despite your obvious errors and tried to say I was making errors in reading what he said when it would have been obvious to a first grader.

 

[pittguy579]

Thats brain power Pitt, you said our brain power makes us the most complex "overall". Therefore you must have a way to mathematically measure complexity.

As I have said, show me a creature with more problem solving ability than we do. I have been waiting

Have you been able to do so? Nope
Checkmate

Find a scientific measurement or you have nothing but your own opinion

My opinion is based on fact and logic
Please show me a scientist that doesn't believe we are the most intelligent creatures.
If it is in dispute or we if we aren't, there should be some scientific papers out there stating that notion

 

[Tomk80]

As I have said, show me a creature with more problem solving ability than we do. I have been waiting

Have you been able to do so? Nope
Checkmate

but that doesn't mean we have the most complex brain. It only means our brains have a high level of abstraction, but so do the brains of dolphins. Who knows, maybe the only reason they can't solve polynomical functions is because they don't have fingers.

My opinion is based on fact and logic
Please show me a scientist that doesn't believe we are the most intelligent creatures.
If it is in dispute or we if we aren't, there should be some scientific papers out there stating that notion

No, your opinion is based on a conflation on terms like complexity, advancement, intelligence, capability etc etc. That's not logic. You have yet to address the point that highest intellectual capability=/=most complex

 

[Tomk80]

Nope, I can read just fine. Others are either blind or functionally illiterate

Then why are posts of you misreading others so abundant on this thread?

 

[pittguy579]

No, your opinion is based on a conflation on terms like complexity, advancement, intelligence, capability etc etc. That's not logic. You have yet to address the point that highest intellectual capability=/=most complex

Nope, it's a fact we are the most complex in terms of capabilities because we are the most intelligent

 

[Edx]

Thats brain power Pitt, you said our brain power makes us the most complex "overall". Therefore you must have a way to mathematically measure complexity.

As I have said, show me a creature with more problem solving ability than we do. I have been waiting

Have you been able to do so? Nope
Checkmate

Hey, perhaps if you keep ignoring me people wont notice you're doing it!!

My opinion is based on fact and logic
Please show me a scientist that doesn't believe we are the most intelligent creatures.

Misrepresenting my position again! Very smart of you!

Intelligence is not a mathematical measure. When you were asked for one, you said IQ. This shows you dont understand how IQ works, becuase if you cant even calculate the complexity of a human brain using IQ you certianly cant do it with other animals.

So once again can you come up with an objective mathematical measure to measure the complexity of an organism?

Remember you want to be able to say which organism is most complex "overall". But maybe Im speaking to someone who never did all that well with mathematics at school.

Well you have been and will continue to be wrong

And you always give such articulated reasons.

You were wrong about what Gould said despite your obvious errors and tried to say I was making errors in reading what he said when it would have been obvious to a first grader.

Right, so I was wrong even though you were the one that said humans are more complex and more capable and more advanced "in every way".... except for reproduction, survivability, evolutionary success and biological complexity, they just dont count. YEY!

And Gould was 100% on your side, even though his whole point was saying we are not the most capable organism despite being one of the most complex. Hell, even if we assume Gould really meant we are the most complex organism, he definietly didnt say we are the most capable. But thats right Pitt! He agrees with you 100%, and you are have been 100% right about absolutely everything here and have never misrepresented anyone! YEY! You are so wize!

 

[Kripost]

Complexity -/-> Intelligence, and
Complexity <-/- Intelligence

 

[pittguy579]

Misrepresenting my position again! Very smart of you!

Intelligence is not a mathematical measure. When you were asked for one, and you said IQ. This shows you dont understand how IQ works, becuase if you cant even calculate the complexity of a human brain using IQ you certianly cant do it with other animals.

Obviously you have a low IQ because I said problem solving and abstract reasoning abilitiy would be good measures. I said IQ was only an approximation.

So just show me an animal that has greater problem solving and analytical skills than we do

Show me one scientsit who supports your position that we may not be the

So once again can you come up with an objective mathematical measure to measure the complexity of an organism?

Yes, the propensity of the evidence. Show me another creature that can do what we can do in terms of problem solving and analytical abilities. The evidence is overwhelming

Remember you want to be able to say which organism is most complex "overall". But maybe Im speaking to someone who never did all that well with mathematics at school.

LOL you obviously didn't do well as far as reading and writing and artimetic. Did you actually make it out of elementary school? it appears to be you have a serious learnign disability. I am an engineer. Obviously I can do math

And you always give such articulated reasons.

Even my poorly articulated ones are better than your rubbish

Right, so I was wrong even though you were the one that said humans are more complex and more capable and more advanced "in every way".... except for reproduction, survivability, evolutionary success and biological complexity, they just dont count. YEY!

We are advanced in EVERY WAY AS FAR AS CAPABILITIES. DUH I was right and still am right and you are wrong.

And Gould was 100% on your side, even though his whole point was saying we are not the most capable organism despite being one of the most complex.

Yes, he was 100% on my side in that he agrees with me we are the most complex. You have been wrong, wrong, wrong when you have said he didn't say that.
Apparently your reading skills are lacking

Hell, even if we assume Gould really meant we are the most complex organism, he definietly didnt say we are the most capable. But thats right Pitt! He agrees with you 100%, and you are have been 100% right about absolutely everything here and have nevemisrepresented anyone! YEY! You are so wize!

We are the most capabale. He does agree with me
Good day mate

 

[Edx]

Obviously you have a low IQ because I said problem solving and abstract reasoning abilitiy would be good measures. I said IQ was only an approximation.

No, you said humans are more complex overall.

Intelligence doesnt equal complexity. And IQ cannot measure intelligence well even in humans. You need to come up with an objective way to measure complexity.

So just show me an animal that has greater problem solving and analytical skills than we do

Show me one scientsit who supports your position that we may not be the

I wonder if misrepresentation is what you do when you realise you have no argument left.

Yes, the propensity of the evidence. Show me another creature that can do what we can do in terms of problem solving and analytical abilities. The evidence is overwhelming

Right ok, the evidence is so overwhelming... yet you apparently still dont understand what a scientific measurement is. Too bad.

LOL you obviously didn't do well as far as reading and writing and artimetic. Did you actually make it out of elementary school? it appears to be you have a serious learnign disability.

Carefull pitt, wouldnt want someone to report you again would you?

I am an engineer. Obviously I can do math

Great! Too bad you cant understand what that means here and why its important.

Even my poorly articulated ones are better than your rubbish

Becuase you dont have to give reasons when you say anything. You are like a god! What you say is gospel! You dont even have to produce scientific arguments! "Im right" is "smart" according to you.

We are advanced in EVERY WAY AS FAR AS CAPABILITIES. DUH I was right and still am right and you are wrong.

You said "in every way". Pitt.

Reproduction, survivability, evolutionary success and biological complexity are all capabilites of an organism. Its your problem if you think they dont count, you messed up and said "in every way", and that means they do.

Yes, he was 100% on my side in that he agrees with me we are the most complex.

100%? Aside from saying that bacteria rule us and dominate this planet. Yea, good job.

You have been wrong, wrong, wrong when you have said he didn't say that.

I already said even if he meant we were the most complex by some criteria he never specified... he doesnt agree "we rule", whereas you said we did, he said we dont. Specifically disagreeing with what you said. Oh but thats right you meant a different kind of rule, I forgot! Just like I can say "my cat rules the world!", and be completely correct because Im talking in terms of "cuteness". Too bad you said humans are better "in every way", harder to weasel out of that one.

We are the most capabale. He does agree with me

Where does he say we are the most capable? Have fun trying to find a quote to twist.

 

[pittguy579]

]No, you said humans are more complex overall.

We are in terms of capabilities
Are you learning disabled?

Intelligence doesnt equal complexity. And IQ cannot measure intelligence well even in humans. You need to come up with an objective way to measure complexity.

IQ does measure intelligence in humans.
Intelligence does equal greater complexity in terms of capababilities.

I wonder if misrepresentation is what you do when you realise you have no argument left.

Nope, you are the one misrepresenting. You never had an argument to begin with

Right ok, the evidence is so overwhelming... yet you apparently still dont understand what a scientific measurement is. Too bad.

I do understand it. Despite there being no way to IQ test dolphins, it is clear we have more overall cognitive horsepower. Let's look at accomplishments....
The evidence is overwhelming

You said "in every way". Pitt.

In every way as far as function

Reproduction, survivability, evolutionary success and biological complexity are all capabilites of an organism. Its your problem if you think they dont count, you messed up and said "in every way", and that means they do.

In terms of functionality, we are

100%? Aside from saying that bacteria rule us and dominate this planet. Yea, good job.

I already said even if he meant we were the most complex by some criteria he never specified... he doesnt agree "we rule", whereas you said we did, he said we dont. Specifically disagreeing with what you said. Oh but thats right you meant a different kind of rule, I forgot! Just like I can say "my cat rules the world!", and be completely correct because Im talking in terms of "cuteness". Too bad you said humans are better "in every way", harder to weasel out of that one.

We do rule in terms of dominating the earth and the heavens and being able to shape nature and the environment and being able to solve problems and overall functionality. The only thing you can say is "baceteria can kill us betteR" and not even that is the case.

Where does he say we are the most capable? Have fun trying to find a quote to twis

We are the most c apable

 

[Psudopod]

EVERY WAY AS FAR AS CAPABILITIES

Then you can photosynethise?

Really, I don't understand why I'm even posting. Its quite clear that Pittguy is looking at the arguement from an angle of being right and has missed the points that others are trying to make.

 

[Elduran]

I thought he said he was leaving the thread alone? It made my day whan I saw that...

 

[Edx]

We are in terms of capabilities

So we are best in every way, apart from all those other ways I listed. Good job. Apparently the words "best in every way" really only mean "by pittguys narrow criteria".

IQ does measure intelligence in humans.

Its not an objective measure. Learn how IQ works. You cant even objectively measure human intelligence.

Intelligence does equal greater complexity in terms of capababilities.

Im tired of arguing against your terms which you make up as you go along. They are all totally meaningless.

best in every way", really ended up having a lot of exceptions didnt it.

Nope, you are the one misrepresenting. You never had an argument to begin with

[pittguy] No, YOU are misrepresenting! YOU never had any argument! YOU appear to have a serious learnign disability! Are you learning disabled? [/pittguy]

I do understand it. Despite there being no way to IQ test dolphins, it is clear we have more overall cognitive horsepower. Let's look at accomplishments....
The evidence is overwhelming

So you admit there is no way to test animals complexity using your measure of IQ. Well done.

We cant just take your opinion thats "its clear", but if the evidence is so "overwhelming" you should be able to find some scientific measure to objectively state we are overall more complex. This is how science works. You opinion is not gospel.

And you bandy about terms like "cognitive horsepower", well, you also need to define that in a scientific way or it is also meaningless. Do you want to do science or not? Im aware thats a stupid question since it is directed at you.

In every way as far as function

Reproduction, survivability, evolutionary success and biological complexity are all capabilites of an organism. Its your problem if you think they dont count, apperently "best in every way", has a lot of exceptions.

In terms of functionality, we are

More advanced, more complex and more capable in every way, sure doesnt mean what it sounds like does it!

We do rule in terms of dominating the earth

Gould says Bacteria rule this planet, just as they have for over 3 billion years. He literally says that.

and the heavens and being able to shape nature and the environment and being able to solve problems and overall functionality. The only thing you can say is "baceteria can kill us betteR" and not even that is the case.

Good lord, thanks for showing you have ignored every one of my posts about that. Good Job.

We are the most capabale. He does agree with me

Where does he say we are the most capable? Have fun trying to find a quote to twis

We are the most c apable

That isnt a quote.

 

[b*unique]

can anyone tell me what is this discussion about?

 

[Edx]

can anyone tell me what is this discussion about?

Its about whatever Pittguy whats to argue about. You see he makes a statement thats wrong and then eventually after arguing for pages and pages he changes his definitions and terms around until it doesnt even relate to the topic anymore. Early on he just started ignoring every post based on the topic saying that he already addressed it no matter what anyone said. He literally said that "I am not wrong" is a smart arguement.

 

[pittguy579]

]So we are best in every way, apart from all those other ways I listed. Good job. Apparently the words "best in every way" really only mean "by pittguys narrow criteria".

Best as far as overall abilities

Its not an objective measure. Learn how IQ works. You cant even objectively measure human intelligence.

Yes it is an objective measure. To say so shows you lack intelligence. It is the best indicator of overall problem solving abilities for humans

best in every way", really ended up having a lot of exceptions didnt it.

Not as far as overall ability to complete complex tasks and solve compelx problems

So you admit there is no way to test animals complexity using your measure of IQ. Well done.

Show me the amount of progress animals have made in the various fields of science and show me the discoveries they have made.

you should be able to find some scientific measure to objectively state we are overall more complex.

Intelligence

And you bandy about terms like "cognitive horsepower", well, you also need to define that in a scientific way or it is also meaningless. Do you want to do science or not? Im aware thats a stupid question since it is directed at you.

Analytical and problem solving abilities is what cognitive horsepower is all about and composed of

Reproduction, survivability, evolutionary success and biological complexity are all capabilites of an organism. Its your problem if you think they dont count, apperently "best in every way", has a lot of exceptions

And I have said ability to reproduce doesn't mean greater complexity. We are better at complex tasks

More advanced, more complex and more capable in every way, sure doesnt mean what it sounds like does it!

Yes it does

Gould says Bacteria rule this planet, just as they have for over 3 billion years. He literally says that.

They rule as far as numerosity goes but that is about it

 

[pittguy579]

. You see he makes a statement thats wrong

You are the one that has been wrong

 

[Deamiter]

I'm just popping in to remind members that insulting others (including asking them insulting questions like, "are you stupid?") will not be allowed. Do continue the discussion of complexity if you wish, but insults will earn alerts and warnings.

 

[Baggins]

I'm just popping in to remind members that insulting others (including asking them insulting questions like, "are you stupid?") will not be allowed. Do continue the discussion of complexity if you wish, but insults will earn alerts and warnings.

But that's the central plank of his argument ( I am clever you are stupid ) he can't lose that

 

[Dannager]

They rule as far as numerosity goes but that is about it

And numerosity and survivability are all evolution cares about. Are we done yet?