Lying in politics to save lives from being aborted: acceptable?

[Adam56]

An argument I’ve heard Christians is “if you lived in the Holocaust, it’s morally justified to lie about keeping Jews in the attic.” (In case police investigate.)

So I have a thought experiment. Trump is Republican, which is the pro life party. If trump were to campaign and say “I’m not banning the abortion pill”, or “I’m not setting a 15 week ban it’s all up to the states”

And then he wins and in office, starts becoming strict on abortion, is that a sin? He would have lied to get in office, but it would result in less abortion.

So what’s the verdict?

 

[Fantine]

Your hypothesis is hard for me to wrap my brain around.
He's not thinking about babies. He's thinking about votes.
Right now, he realizes his appointment of three judges who overturned Roe v. Wade is an election liability, especially considering the corruption of several justices and the failure of the Roberts Court to enforce ethics policies---even when a flag supporting insurrection flies on a justices house.
And he has to take heat for the terrible decisions these justices have made as well as their decision on Roe.
And so he's soft pedaling on abortion on the campaign trail.
But TBT, if he won, his priorities will be paying back his oligarchial sponsors--Musk, Thiel, and Silicon Valley--and implementing Project 2025.
The babies aren't on his mind at all.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

An argument I’ve heard Christians is “if you lived in the Holocaust, it’s morally justified to lie about keeping Jews in the attic.” (In case police investigate.)

So I have a thought experiment. Trump is Republican, which is the pro life party. If trump were to campaign and say “I’m not banning the abortion pill”, or “I’m not setting a 15 week ban it’s all up to the states”

And then he wins and in office, starts becoming strict on abortion, is that a sin? He would have lied to get in office, but it would result in less abortion.

So what’s the verdict?

Thinking about Trump's sinfulness, specifically in terms of lying is a pointless and tedious enterprise.

I guess we are really talking about context and motive and how they mitigate culpability in some cases..

 

[Maria Billingsley]

An argument I’ve heard Christians is “if you lived in the Holocaust, it’s morally justified to lie about keeping Jews in the attic.” (In case police investigate.)

So I have a thought experiment. Trump is Republican, which is the pro life party. If trump were to campaign and say “I’m not banning the abortion pill”, or “I’m not setting a 15 week ban it’s all up to the states”

And then he wins and in office, starts becoming strict on abortion, is that a sin? He would have lied to get in office, but it would result in less abortion.

So what’s the verdict?

This is right out of an authoritarian 's playbook. Make promises you have no intentions to keep. That being said, it really would have no effect on abortion rates. Since Roe/ Wade was overturned , abortions have increased. A Federal all out ban would just drive it underground and tracking would be impossible. What we would be able to track are botched procedures causing increased emergency room visits and death. The moral of this story is , government can not stop abortion by its bans but it can help by deeming it murder, which they all fall short of doing. Only a true religious conviction would stop the abortion of an unwanted pregnancy.
Blessings

 

[FireDragon76]

No, it's not honest. In the case of Nazis, Nazis have no right to the truth, in that particular situation. In a democracy, voters have a right to know the actual policies of candidates seeking office.

 

[childeye 2]

An argument I’ve heard Christians is “if you lived in the Holocaust, it’s morally justified to lie about keeping Jews in the attic.” (In case police investigate.)

So I have a thought experiment. Trump is Republican, which is the pro life party. If trump were to campaign and say “I’m not banning the abortion pill”, or “I’m not setting a 15 week ban it’s all up to the states”

And then he wins and in office, starts becoming strict on abortion, is that a sin? He would have lied to get in office, but it would result in less abortion.

So what’s the verdict?

If someone were promising to hide a Jewish family from the Nazis, then to tell the Nazi the truth of where they are hiding would betray the Jewish family, which amounts to having lied to the Jewish family. Liars simply can't be trusted.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

An argument I’ve heard Christians is “if you lived in the Holocaust, it’s morally justified to lie about keeping Jews in the attic.” (In case police investigate.)

So I have a thought experiment. Trump is Republican, which is the pro life party. If trump were to campaign and say “I’m not banning the abortion pill”, or “I’m not setting a 15 week ban it’s all up to the states”

And then he wins and in office, starts becoming strict on abortion, is that a sin? He would have lied to get in office, but it would result in less abortion.

So what’s the verdict?

My verdict?

In one instance, we're dealing with a real event of human catastrophe from the past (i.e. The Holocaust), while in the second instance, we're merely alluding to a hypothetical scenario regarding politicians who often fail to keep their promises and do fail for at least two reasons: 1) they may lie to get into office, or 2) they tell the truth but our tripartite government prevents him/her from carrying out the legal effects he/she would otherwise like to put into place.

Therefore, either way, we shouldn't trust that politicians can or will do what they say they will attempt to do, even for good goals that Christians aver for.

And if a politician is a known pragmatist, then they shouldn't be trusted anyway, whether they are telling the truth or lying at any given moment.

 

[Adam56]

If someone were promising to hide a Jewish family from the Nazis, then to tell the Nazi the truth of where they are hiding would betray the Jewish family, which amounts to having lied to the Jewish family. Liars simply can't be trusted.

No, it's not honest. In the case of Nazis, Nazis have no right to the truth, in that particular situation. In a democracy, voters have a right to know the actual policies of candidates seeking office.

Is it Nazis that don’t have a right to truth or potential murderers? Do people not have rights to protections?

 

[Adam56]

My verdict?

In one instance, we're dealing with a real event of human catastrophe from the past (i.e. The Holocaust), while in the second instance, we're merely alluding to a hypothetical scenario regarding politicians who often fail to keep their promises and do fail for at least two reasons: 1) they may lie to get into office, or 2) they tell the truth but our tripartite government prevents him/her from carrying out the legal effects he/she would otherwise like to put into place.

Therefore, either way, we shouldn't trust that politicians can or will do what they say they will attempt to do, even for good goals that Christians aver for.

And if a politician is a known pragmatist, then they shouldn't be trusted anyway, whether they are telling the truth or lying at any given moment.

Pragmatism (being realistic) is bad?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Pragmatism (being realistic) is bad?

I'm not a fan of Pragmatism as an Ethical option for social advocacy or as an Epistemological choice for discerning social policies.

 

[childeye 2]

Is it Nazis that don’t have a right to truth or potential murderers?

This is a false dichotomy, Nazis and murderers are not mutually exclusive. What's a potential murderer and who doesn't qualify?

Do people not have rights to protections?

Protections from who, liars?

 

[com7fy8]

God can guide us according to what He knows is really true, and what He wants.

I do not need to waste my attention on people I don't even know, hoping they will do what is good. But with God we can do what is really good!

 

[Adam56]

This is a false dichotomy, Nazis and murderers are not mutually exclusive. What's a potential murderer and who doesn't qualify?

Abortion qualifies as murder.

Protections from who, liars?

From murderers.

 

[BNR32FAN]

An argument I’ve heard Christians is “if you lived in the Holocaust, it’s morally justified to lie about keeping Jews in the attic.” (In case police investigate.)

So I have a thought experiment. Trump is Republican, which is the pro life party. If trump were to campaign and say “I’m not banning the abortion pill”, or “I’m not setting a 15 week ban it’s all up to the states”

And then he wins and in office, starts becoming strict on abortion, is that a sin? He would have lied to get in office, but it would result in less abortion.

So what’s the verdict?

If the lie is made for the purpose of saving lives then it is justified, if it’s made just to gain office then it’s not.

 

[childeye 2]

Abortion qualifies as murder.

I would say it qualifies as depriving a child of having life. But if it is murder, scripture says God will judge it.

From murderers.

I'm not a woman and can't get pregnant. As a male, I think if a woman brings her baby to term, then ultimately, she will be glad she gave life to the child. But I'm reluctant to judge others as murderers according to Romans 2:1 and Matthew 7:1-2. I don't actually know that if I were born in the shoes of a woman who procures an abortion, that given the same circumstances, I would not have done the same thing.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Abortion qualifies as murder.

So you believe that women who get abortions should be prosecuted for murder?

 

[Adam56]

I would say it qualifies as depriving a child of having life. But if it is murder, scripture says God will judge it.

I'm not a woman and can't get pregnant. As a male, I think if a woman brings her baby to term, then ultimately, she will be glad she gave life to the child. But I'm reluctant to judge others as murderers according to Romans 2:1 and Matthew 7:1-2. I don't actually know that if I were born in the shoes of a woman who procures an abortion, that given the same circumstances, I would not have done the same thing.

The Matthew verse doesn’t say not to judge but to not be hypocritical.

As for “if you were born a woman”, I think saying “I might have done this sin” is excuse making.

So you believe that women who get abortions should be prosecuted for murder?

Correct.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I would say it qualifies as depriving a child of having life. But if it is murder, scripture says God will judge it.

I'm not a woman and can't get pregnant. As a male, I think if a woman brings her baby to term, then ultimately, she will be glad she gave life to the child. But I'm reluctant to judge others as murderers according to Romans 2:1 and Matthew 7:1-2. I don't actually know that if I were born in the shoes of a woman who procures an abortion, that given the same circumstances, I would not have done the same thing.

This is a bit off topic but Jesus wasn’t telling people not to judge others in Matthew 7. He was telling them not to be hypocrites, hence verses 3-5. Verse 6 He says not to give what’s Holy to dogs and verses 15-20 He tells us how to identify false prophets. So verse 6 and verses 15-20 involve judging a person’s character.

 

[childeye 2]

This is a bit off topic but Jesus wasn’t telling people not to judge others in Matthew 7. He was telling them not to be hypocrites, hence verses 3-5. Verse 6 He says not to give what’s Holy to dogs and verses 15-20 He tells us how to identify false prophets. So verse 6 and verses 15-20 involve judging a person’s character.

I appreciate your sentiments. I agree that Jesus is talking about not being hypocritical, and that would be consistent with love others as you would want to be loved. If you notice I also used Romans 2:1 as a qualifier for hypocritical judgment, because I did not want there to be any confusion.

 

[childeye 2]

The Matthew verse doesn’t say not to judge but to not be hypocritical.

Exactly, we're judged by what measure we use to judge others and the merciful shall receive mercy.

As for “if you were born a woman”, I think saying “I might have done this sin” is excuse making.

Scripture says we will be judged according to our own subjective measure we use to judge others. So what you say above, is your judgment of yourself. As for me, I'm simply avoiding being a hypocrite by trying to have mercy and understanding towards the sins of others rather than contempt.