• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Lying for "morality"?

bammertheblue

Veteran
Feb 10, 2006
1,798
161
42
Washington, DC
✟25,377.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
What do you think of this?

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/11/04/parental_notification/index.html

"Advocates for California's Proposition 85, a ballot initiative that would require parental notification before a minor has an abortion, aren't afraid to play dirty to win. They're even telling voters that Planned Parenthood covers up the sexual abuse of young girls, although the evidence to support this allegation was fabricated and may have been acquired illegally."


Is it okay to lie and entrap if you're doing something you feel is morally correct?
 

tocis

Warrior of Thor
Jul 29, 2004
2,674
119
56
Northern Germany
✟33,466.00
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
Is it okay to lie and entrap if you're doing something you feel is morally correct?

That's a very nasty question as opinions commonly diverge wildly... however, one question occurs to me spontaneously:

(To the one willing to lie for his morals, whatever they be: )

If you are right, why do you need to lie? Shouldn't truth be able to speak for itself and convince others without any dirty tricks? :D
 
Upvote 0

ChristianCenturion

Veteran / Tuebor
Feb 9, 2005
14,207
576
In front of a computer
✟47,988.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
What do you think of this?

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/11/04/parental_notification/index.html

"Advocates for California's Proposition 85, a ballot initiative that would require parental notification before a minor has an abortion, aren't afraid to play dirty to win. They're even telling voters that Planned Parenthood covers up the sexual abuse of young girls, although the evidence to support this allegation was fabricated and may have been acquired illegally."


Is it okay to lie and entrap if you're doing something you feel is morally correct?

Is it lying?
Do you even know what was being checked?
Excerpt:
"... that supposedly show Planned Parenthood employees ignoring laws that require them to report to authorities any suspicion of abuse -- including statutory rape."

Planned Parenthood has laws they are to follow.
A group has a concern whether or not PP actually follows those laws and obligations.
They decide to test if PP disregards the given laws.
The results?
PP is exposed, the investigation is dropped due to the test not actually involving teens being pregnant and we get an emotive red herring about a group checking out what really goes on.
BTW- I assume everyone voicing a complaint on the tactic also considers officials taking down internet predators as being liars and immoral. :doh:

Does it change the fact that people are taking it upon their selves to disregard the given laws? No.
Does it change the fact that the actions of PP are ultimately bypassing authorities truly responsible for the child and at the same time, enabling sexual abuse? No.

I fail to see how voicing complaints about a group allegedly entrapping PP actually solves the problem. Or wasn't anyone supposed to remember that there was a problem. ;)
 
Upvote 0

bammertheblue

Veteran
Feb 10, 2006
1,798
161
42
Washington, DC
✟25,377.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
Is it lying?
Do you even know what was being checked?
Excerpt:
"... that supposedly show Planned Parenthood employees ignoring laws that require them to report to authorities any suspicion of abuse -- including statutory rape."
Actually, the article deals with this. First of all, the "teenagers" who were supposedly pregnant were fictional, so there was no actual crime to report. Second of all, none of the fictional teenagers ever spoke to or saw a doctor or nurse, who are the ones who are the mandated reporters. The people answering the phones are not.

Planned Parenthood has laws they are to follow.
A group has a concern whether or not PP actually follows those laws and obligations.
They decide to test if PP disregards the given laws.
The results?
PP is exposed, the investigation is dropped due to the test not actually involving teens being pregnant and we get an emotive red herring about a group checking out what really goes on.
BTW- I assume everyone voicing a complaint on the tactic also considers officials taking down internet predators as being liars and immoral.
Internet predators are actually breaking laws. No one here was found to be breaking any laws. If anything, this proved that maybe PP needs to train the people who answer their phones a little better.
Does it change the fact that people are taking it upon their selves to disregard the given laws? No.
Does it change the fact that the actions of PP are ultimately bypassing authorities truly responsible for the child and at the same time, enabling sexual abuse? No.
They failed to prove that they are bypassing anything. They uncovered a problem within our system, yes. That's definitely true. The patient has the right to confidentiality regarding her medical treatment...yet if a 13-year old is pregnant by a 30-year old, that's a problem, and doctors have to report it. They've exposed a big problem, but they've not exposed any grand scheme to cover up sexual abuse.

I fail to see how voicing complaints about a group allegedly entrapping PP actually solves the problem. Or wasn't anyone supposed to remember that there was a problem. ;)
Sorry, what? I'm not sure what problem you're talking about.
 
Upvote 0

ChristianCenturion

Veteran / Tuebor
Feb 9, 2005
14,207
576
In front of a computer
✟47,988.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Actually, the article deals with this. First of all, the "teenagers" who were supposedly pregnant were fictional, so there was no actual crime to report. Second of all, none of the fictional teenagers ever spoke to or saw a doctor or nurse, who are the ones who are the mandated reporters. The people answering the phones are not.
LOL, the "first of all" rules out the "second of all" automatically.
Internet predators are actually breaking laws. No one here was found to be breaking any laws. If anything, this proved that maybe PP needs to train the people who answer their phones a little better.
Of course the investigation didn't find any laws being broken. I had already said that the investigation was dropped as soon as it was decided that there were no actual pregnant teens involved.

Let's not confuse a dropped investigation with a completed thorough investigation concluding that a given organization is found not to be breaking laws.
They failed to prove that they are bypassing anything. They uncovered a problem within our system, yes. That's definitely true. The patient has the right to confidentiality regarding her medical treatment...yet if a 13-year old is pregnant by a 30-year old, that's a problem, and doctors have to report it. They've exposed a big problem, but they've not exposed any grand scheme to cover up sexual abuse.
Perhaps you should read my post again.
Sorry, what? I'm not sure what problem you're talking about.

It would seem that way, but this latter portion seems to conflict with even your earlier statement that there is a problem:
"They uncovered a problem within our system, yes. That's definitely true."

So what have we got?
A claim that states one portion of a group (the professionals answering the phones) do not reflect in any way the whole.
Fair enough and it goes as far as any claim would go in my book.

But I'm for parental notification (as well as spousal) with caveats with or without the pointing to this red herring anyway. Kinda goes with parents being the guardian (or spouse being... well. a spouse) and not all the authority being swept over to some birth control agency attempting to jockey sole influence and also presuming to avoid moral or ethical considerations.

BTW - If anyone were to actually read PP's mission and policy statements, one would see that they strongly affirm that abortion, contraception, blah, blah is an INDIVIDUAL and/or PERSONAL decisions. Inherently, their mission and policy ideology is contrary to notifying anyone, much less including any other input.
 
Upvote 0

bammertheblue

Veteran
Feb 10, 2006
1,798
161
42
Washington, DC
✟25,377.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
Of course the investigation didn't find any laws being broken. I had already said that the investigation was dropped as soon as it was decided that there were no actual pregnant teens involved.
I know the investigation was dropped. I'm saying not only was it dropped because there were no actual pregnant teens involved, it was dropped because the people answering the phones are not the mandated reporters anyway.

Let's not confuse a dropped investigation with a completed thorough investigation concluding that a given organization is found not to be breaking laws.
Perhaps you should read my post again.
See above.

But I'm for parental notification (as well as spousal) with caveats with or without the pointing to this red herring anyway. Kinda goes with parents being the guardian (or spouse being... well. a spouse) and not all the authority being swept over to some birth control agency attempting to jockey sole influence and also presuming to avoid moral or ethical considerations.
I'll leave the problems with spousal or parental notification because that's not the point.
The "birth control agency" wants to do what the patient wants. I don't really understand what you mean by "sole influence". The only person with influence over the decision is the patient, or at least that's how it should be.

BTW - If anyone were to actually read PP's mission and policy statements, one would see that they strongly affirm that abortion, contraception, blah, blah is an INDIVIDUAL and/or PERSONAL decisions. Inherently, their mission and policy ideology is contrary to notifying anyone, much less including any other input.
Yes, that's what I said. The patient has the right to privacy about their medical records. However, it becomes sticky when someone is being abused. That's what I was saying...trying to say, at least.
 
Upvote 0
J

JesusWalks78

Guest
Can you elaborate?

I mean informing the parents before a child is killed via abortion. I mean lets take the case of a fourteen year old girl, we dont allow them tp consume and purchase alcohol, we dont allow them to purchase cigarettes, they need parental consent before going on a field trip, yet they shouldnt have parental consent before murdering someone.

The rest of it is not really a big concern to me.
 
Upvote 0

bammertheblue

Veteran
Feb 10, 2006
1,798
161
42
Washington, DC
✟25,377.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
I mean informing the parents before a child is killed via abortion. I mean lets take the case of a fourteen year old girl, we dont allow them tp consume and purchase alcohol, we dont allow them to purchase cigarettes, they need parental consent before going on a field trip, yet they shouldnt have parental consent before murdering someone.

The rest of it is not really a big concern to me.

That's nice, but it really has nothing to do with the topic. I'm not talking about parental consent laws and neither is the article.
 
Upvote 0