-
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
-
CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Lying About Islam
- Thread starter 4Jesus
- Start date
Even funnier, is the fact that I doubt if you'll ever find Judaism saying that what is in the Quran can be proven with the Hebrew Old Testament. Aint that funny?
Looks like Islam is on its own when trying to prove that Judeo-Christian scripture is in their favor.
Upvote
0
feral
Dostoyevsky was right
you know...out of curiousity i recently asked my muslim friends what they thought about the segregation of the sexes in the mosque, and each of them said they feel it is a positive thing. women are able to concentrate and men can concentrate, and also both groups feel as if they are maintaining traditions. no one feels excluded as all are invited to pray and worship. in addition, as a feminist, i know that segregation often seems very patriarchal...however in the case of islam the faith (not culture/traditions of people) that women are considered valuable and that they are encouraged to be believers - quite a different story from the christian apostle pauls take that women should be quiet in church and only ask questions of their husband. of course...you'll find some problem with that because you want to believe what is comfortable to you.
as far as islam and god...well, i don't believe in the christian take on god so it is no harm to me in the least. in addition, muslims are worshipping the creator, and if you have a different god then that is your right, but don't try to box in and limit their beliefs. you do not own the exclusive rights to god, i'm sorry to say, and unless you can prove that god has called islam false or allah false then there is no reason to believe what you are saying. the bible says no idols, and allah is not an idol but a creator...which many assume to be god. allah means god, but it's in a different language so that could possibly be what's tripping you up.
no, christians don't try to prove their faith by the qur'an. interestingly enough, they try to prove their message to non-believers by using a book non-believers do not believe in! wacky! muslims however seem to understand that most people won't accept their messages at face value and therefore seek to prove their faith using more then their own qur'an. if scientific evidence is found they will use it. if other faiths have evidence, they will point that out. i don't think that if god exists humans have the potential to hurt the feelings of god...so yet again, if muslims are wrong i don't think god is crying his/her/its eyes out over it. if muhammed is not really a prophet then i suppose god can handle that. as god is said to have created everyone...perhaps muhammeds identity is part of the plan. as many a sane individual has pointed out...the concept of hell is unreasonable brutal and not (from what we can tell) the work of a benevolent god...so if some people are ignorant or misguided i'm sure it will work out okay in the end. god is not a little kid pulling wings off of flies...so i presume a gods treatment of us will not be hostile...
as far as what someone said about jesus being god and then not being god...well, as they say god works in mysterious ways. it is possible that translations and languages have made this mystery impossible to figure out, or perhaps it's all a plan. perhaps god has tailor made religions to provide different types of people different ways of coming to terms with the creator. who knows?
for the record...agnostics islamic apologetics is hard to do...!
Upvote
0
So, how many Islamic women are so valued, that they are allowed to stand up and speak during the services? Ironic that you say you don't believe in the Christian God yet you feel free to interpret Scripture you obviously know nothing about. The passage you speak of is 1Cor.14:34,35. What we have is a situation where Paul is trying to instill order in a church that is out of control and obviously (not to you), this must be interpreted in light of 1Cor.11:5 where it is clear that Paul understood that women were permitted to prophesy and to pray in public. What is illuded to in (v.34,34), is that they were not allowed to interrupt the services by speaking in tongues.
You have obviously missed the point I have been making and that is, they can have their beliefs but don't try and take Judeo-Christian scripture and prove your points.
As many a self-guided person has pointed out, the concept of hell is unreasonable and brutal. People go to hell because of sin and that is reasonable. The Holy Spirit has been opening eyes for a very long time and those that turn their back on the truth have no one but themselves to blame.
Upvote
0
feral
Dostoyevsky was right
if a society or group of people fails to value women, that is the fault of the individual, not the religion. the qur'an has verses about offering alimony, caring for women and never falsely accusing women of crime - i am not stating that islam or any mnothestic faith has been excellent to women, but that the intent of islam does not seem to be oppression of women. unfortunately, culture and traditions, along with old fashioned patriarchy have corrupted and misinterpreted the religion, which has probably happened with christianity as well.
may i ask - why are you so very hostile? just because i don't believe in your interpretation at this time that doesn't cancel out the twelve years i had in christian elementary, middle school and high school, nor my one year at calvin college, nor my minor in religious studies, nor my work at campus crusade for christ, nor the six years of attending baptist summer camp and being a counselor there, nor my semester of missions work, nor my time chatting, studying and reading independantly. since the pastor at the local church (living hope lutheran) takes me out for lunch to get my perspective on bringing wiccans to christ, i fancy that i can comprehend the bible. the only reason that i pointed out paul (or that i could point out lot offering his own daughters to be raped) is because you seemed to be coming from the perspective that islam is bad because of sexual segregation. you cannot complain about islam being sexist while sexist words exist in your own text - well, you can, but it's hypocrtical and never good for making a non-biased argument.
now the point you were making - that muslims can have their belief but cannot use the bible - how selfish is that? what one person or group gets out of the bible is not up to you, and god did not leave that in your hands. who are you to say that you hold the rights to the bible and that the bible can only be read in agreement with your views? do you not believe god created all people? what about free will? if you believe that, then you can reasonably understand that the bible can be read and interpreted by anyone. if muslims find evidence of their faith in the bible, so be it. when scientists make discoveries that support crhistian claims, i never see christians rushing to deny that. no, they point out the scientific evidence as evidence of their own faith, even while calling science fallible and protesting the teaching of evolution. if christians can do this, then muslims can certainly find evidence of their faith as well. you are not god, you do not get to say who can believe what. obviously, if god is as powerful as you believe, he will have a plan that accomodates his people. perhaps his plan allows people to believe a variety of religions, or perhaps there is predestination and these people are condemned. that is for god to decide and not you.
hell...well, what you believe cannot be changed by me. i am sorry that you see god as a punisher. i prefer to believe that hell is not a place, but a state in which people are seperated from god. whether that is eternal or short term, before or after death, remains to be discovered. as none of us chatting here have died yet, we cannot know...we can only guess or believe. in my opinion god would not condemn to hell people who for a variety of reasons misunderstand or do not see him/her/it. those who for psychological, mental and emotional reasons cannot believe will not be tormented. those who have been given a firm foundation in erroneous belief and cannot change will not be tormented. if you believe otherwise that is your opinion...and if you are right, rejoice in knowing that i will burn forever.
this originally started out as lies about islam...which presented something that is not really lied about but just not known by those who do not follow or read about islam. there are a lot of lies about this faith, and it's probably hard for those who have never interacted with muslims to understand. my only suggestion is that you should give yourself knowledge and read about the faith. it won't convert you unless you want to be converted, but it will give you some understanding of what islam is about so that you can make choices about it with some knowledge. if you feel that islam is a false belief then understand it so you can point out the errors in the faith, not in the followers. as christians love to point out...they are not perfect, so you cannot expect muslims to be either. however, if you find errors in the qur'an, then you can use them to your evangelical advantage.
Upvote
0
I honestly don't see how you read hostility into what I said, if the truth offends you so be it but don't try and degrade me. Please quote anything sexist against women in the NT. Scripture denounces homosexuality as sin (Lev.18:22-30, 20:13; Rom.1:24-27; 1Cor.6:9; 1Tim.1:10). The OT is full of the mistakes of people that are under pressure and that is exactly what had happened to Lot. Hospitality in the middle-east is highly valued and Lot chose at a time under great pressure what he saw to be the lesser of two evils.
The Bible was written by people that that do not hold the beliefs of Islam. Like I said earlier, when Muslims try and use the Bible to substantiate their claims about Islam and Mohammad, it is like explaining "King Lear" to someone with information they gleaned from "Tom Sawyer," it doesn't work!
Then, you don't believe our Lord Jesus when he spoke of Gehenna which served as a reseptacle for all sorts of putrefying matter and all that defiled the holy city (Jerusalem) and became the image of the place or everlasting punishment, especially on account of its ever-burning fires; and to this fact the words of Jesus Christ refer when He mentions "the unquenchable fire." The passages of the NT show plainly that the word "gehenna" was a popular espression for "hell" of which Jesus and his apostles made use but it would be erroneous to infer that Jesus and his apoetles merely accomodated themselves to the popular expression, without believing in the actual state of the lost. Jesus mentions gehenna (hell) many times as a most awesome warning of the consequences of sin (Matt.5:22, 29,30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15, 33; Mark 9:43, 45, 47; Luke 12:5). Jesus describes is as a place where their "worm" never dies and their "fire" is never quenched. Gehenna is identical in meaning with the "lake of fire" (Rev.19:20, 20:10, 14-15. The "second-death" and "the lake of fire" are identical terms (20:14).
It describes the state of the wicked as forever seperated from God and consigned to the special abode of unrepentant angels and people in the eternal state. I seriously doubt that God would intend this place for anyone that cannot because of age or mental condition (impaired) make logical choices when faced with this information but of course you know all this since you've had so much religious training, so how can you make the statements you do about hell since you've studied the Bible so much?
Upvote
0
feral
Dostoyevsky was right
you are correct, i do not believe in jesus nor in the statements supposedly made by him. it is my opinion that the claims of hell were exaggerated to convince others to follow christianity, as a scare tactic of sorts. the idea of fire can be interpreted literally or as a metaphor for something else. my statements refer to what i believe, and as a non-christian they are probably different from the views many christians hold. just because i know what the bible says doesn't mean i believe it.
i still hold that if you find evidence of something, it is your right to point it out. not everyone has to believe it. i don't believe that muslims are going to usurp your religion just because they use the bible as evidence of something. it is your right not to follow or trust their interpretation. if the bible comes from god then no one can control who reads it or what they get out of it. the amish have used verses in the bible to point out the evils of electricity, whereas baptist people don't share that view. why are you not protesting against the amish? they use the same book.
i still hold that if you find evidence of something, it is your right to point it out. not everyone has to believe it. i don't believe that muslims are going to usurp your religion just because they use the bible as evidence of something. it is your right not to follow or trust their interpretation. if the bible comes from god then no one can control who reads it or what they get out of it. the amish have used verses in the bible to point out the evils of electricity, whereas baptist people don't share that view. why are you not protesting against the amish? they use the same book.
Upvote
0
Doctrine1st
Official nitwit
29th March 2003 at 02:20 PM 4Jesus said this in Post #42
Even funnier, is the fact that I doubt if you'll ever find Judaism saying that what is in the Quran can be proven with the Hebrew Old Testament. Aint that funny?
Looks like Islam is on its own when trying to prove that Judeo-Christian scripture is in their favor.
You're right, and what's even MORE funny is those of Judiasm will tell you that there is nothing in the New Testament that can be proven from the Tanach. There's a reason why the Jews rejected the Gospels and Paul you know.
Upvote
0
Yet you've been involved in the campus crusades for Christ and you give a minister advice on witnessing to Wiccans
Upvote
0
True but the point I was making is that Jews and Christians do not share Islams beliefs that anything they believe is contained in the Bible.
Upvote
0
Doctrine1st
Official nitwit
True but Jews and Christians don't share the same Bible. Get a camera, go to a Christian bookstore, and ask the clerk for a copy of the Tanach, and then take a picture of the expression on their face.
Upvote
0
I haven't done extensive studies on manuscript evidence but have been doing some reading for the past two or three yrs and it is has been purported by some christian authors that I have read that Orthodox Jews say that the Masoretic text that is in the KJV is the true Hebrew text. I was in a book store a few yrs back and was looking through the books in the religious section and found a book labeled Torah (it was not labeled Tanach). When I turned to the 53rd chapter of Isaiah it was not there, there was a 52nd and 54th chapter but the 53rd was gone! I believe the 53rd is a prophecy about Jesus as the Suffering Servant but yet it is interesting that even if Jews believe it is about Israel as the Suffering Servant, why was it missing from the book?
I used to work for a Jewish lady that was Reformed and she absolutely hated the Orthodox.
Upvote
0
feral
Dostoyevsky was right
1st April 2003 at 09:12 PM 4Jesus said this in Post #49
Yet you've been involved in the campus crusades for Christ and you give a minister advice on witnessing to Wiccans
you are right to be confused...it gets confusing. from ages 0-12 i went to the church and although i never caught on believing i thought church was interesting enough, and jesus a friendly fellow along the lines of the tooth fairy. from 12-16 i tried really hard to be a christian...got involved with everything. from 16-18 i had stopped trying but was still involved in my own programs, mostly because of my very strict parents. at 18 i declared atheism. got involved with wicca, or tried to, experimented with paganism and satanism, and was very, very anti-christian. at 20 was purely against christianity but realized i couldn't prove there was not god, so quit being an atheist. calmed down some....
the pastor is the director of a local church who has the insight to understand that he needs to see other perspectives in order to present christianity as a viable alternative to the religion of those he wants to convert. he meets with different people like myself and learns about the others beliefs, or the lack of belief, etc...then can come up with ways to show christianity to the people of that faith. my specialty is the anti-christians...and i can give him all the contradictions of the bible, etc and say "this is why some people are against the church"...and he can figure out what to tell them. because, obviously, if someone doesn't believe the bible then you can't say "read such and such in the bible, that proves it!". this pastor is smart enough to come up with other ways..
Upvote
0
The best advice I can give you feral is, if you ask God (with a sincere seeking heart) to show you who Jesus really is, He will not deny you the truth.
Upvote
0
feral
Dostoyevsky was right
4jesus...that is very sound advice, but the last time i sincerely prayed to be shown the truth i got into a car accident fifteen minutes later...so i'm a bit unnerved about it. i am re-reading the bible though without the aid of the atheist conspiracy this time so perhaps....
Upvote
0
Maybe it is not my place to say how God is dealing with you but I really do doubt that the car accident and you praying have anything in common. We live in a degenerate world and lots of things can happen at odd times and too it could be satan trying to keep you from the love of Jesus.
Upvote
0
I'm new to the forum and I Just finished reading this thread I hope you don't mind me joining the discussion. 4Jesus I would disagree with you somewhat when you said that Feral's car accident had nothing to with her prayer. I would say it has everything to do with it, she asked God to show himself to her, maybe this is part of that plan. Feral if you asked for God to reveal himself to you He will, maybe not instantly it could be years and maybe your not done praying for everything, maybe there are things that he is waiting for you to ask for so that he can show himself to you?
God maybe allowed Satan to cause that car accident, i'm sure you know of the trials Job went through maybe your similar to Job?
God sometimes allows things that break us, physically and emotionally. No where is the Bible does it say that by seeking God he'll show himself to you in fairytale type way, in fact the Bible is filled with persecution and sufferings for those who chose to follow him. I discovered God's call on my life through brokenness. God allowed a situation in my life that completely rocked me. This process revealed my sinfulness, the illusions of my created self were revealed. And to describe it from a visual perspective it was like a was naked without all the things of this world to protect me, I stood face to face with God and He said will you trust me I've got everything under control. I said yes, I could have said no but I didn't and who knows where Id be today. I've learned to discover that I was created by God and for God and he has a good plan that is best for me. I don't have a completely comfortable life and that isn't the goal either, the goal is for an eternal life with God. I can and do have the joy that comes from God inspite of sufferings. There are verses that say that the things of this world are like grasping for the wind, and that the things of this world are meaningless.
And Feral you are wise to be cautious for God to reveal himself to you because you don't know what he'll put in front of you. But will you do it anyway, from my experience I can tell you that somehow it is the best path it doesn't make senseat times but isnt that what faith is? I decided to take that bridge of faith and let Jesus be the Lord of my life. I haven't been the same since.
God maybe allowed Satan to cause that car accident, i'm sure you know of the trials Job went through maybe your similar to Job?
God sometimes allows things that break us, physically and emotionally. No where is the Bible does it say that by seeking God he'll show himself to you in fairytale type way, in fact the Bible is filled with persecution and sufferings for those who chose to follow him. I discovered God's call on my life through brokenness. God allowed a situation in my life that completely rocked me. This process revealed my sinfulness, the illusions of my created self were revealed. And to describe it from a visual perspective it was like a was naked without all the things of this world to protect me, I stood face to face with God and He said will you trust me I've got everything under control. I said yes, I could have said no but I didn't and who knows where Id be today. I've learned to discover that I was created by God and for God and he has a good plan that is best for me. I don't have a completely comfortable life and that isn't the goal either, the goal is for an eternal life with God. I can and do have the joy that comes from God inspite of sufferings. There are verses that say that the things of this world are like grasping for the wind, and that the things of this world are meaningless.
And Feral you are wise to be cautious for God to reveal himself to you because you don't know what he'll put in front of you. But will you do it anyway, from my experience I can tell you that somehow it is the best path it doesn't make senseat times but isnt that what faith is? I decided to take that bridge of faith and let Jesus be the Lord of my life. I haven't been the same since.
Upvote
0
Hi Levi, Welcome to the forum. Yessurree you can join the discussion, that's what the forum is all about. I absolutely agree with you about God humbling us but God doesn't neccesarily have to do that either, so who is to say if the car accident was God's will or just a random thing.
I would also say that if the accident led to feral discovering something that is beneficial to their walk with the Lord then maybe they should pay attention.
P.S. How do you know feral is a she?
I would also say that if the accident led to feral discovering something that is beneficial to their walk with the Lord then maybe they should pay attention.
P.S. How do you know feral is a she?
Upvote
0
Thanks for the comment 4Jesus and I don't know Feral is a she, I guess it was a subconscience thing. I think it was violent femme banner thing and the word femme gave me the impression that Feral was a she, sorry Feral if you're a guy. I didn't mean anything by it.
Upvote
0
vajradhara
Diamond Thunderbolt of Indestructable Wisdom
- Jun 25, 2003
- 9,403
- 466
- 57
- Faith
- Buddhist
- Marital Status
- In Relationship
- Politics
- US-Others
Namaste all,
actually, what they try to indicate is that within Qur'an there are no "sects" posited, rather these are derivations by people and are not part of the revealed Word of God. It would not be accurate to say that there are not differing schools of thought within Islam.
much in the same way as in the Bible does not espouse other denominations and so forth yet they still exist.
~compassionately~
actually, what they try to indicate is that within Qur'an there are no "sects" posited, rather these are derivations by people and are not part of the revealed Word of God. It would not be accurate to say that there are not differing schools of thought within Islam.
much in the same way as in the Bible does not espouse other denominations and so forth yet they still exist.
~compassionately~
Upvote
0
Similar threads
