Luthers view on Mary!

[simonthezealot]

I continually hear comments such as "Well your at odds with the father of the reformation"

This thread is to discuss these points...
We can start anywhere, such as immac. conc. I've heard that being used recently...This is at odds with Luther, Lets please try and provide documentation on these issues.

 

[repentant]

What did Luther say?

The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart. (Sermon, September 1, 1522).

[She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ . . . She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures. (Sermon, Christmas, 1531).

No woman is like you. You are more than Eve or Sarah, blessed above all nobility, wisdom, and sanctity. (Sermon, Feast of the Visitation, 1537).

One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God's grace . . . Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ . . . Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God. (Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521).

Mary is the Mother of Jesus and the Mother of all of us even though it was Christ alone who reposed on her knees . . . If he is ours, we ought to be in his situation; there where he is, we ought also to be and all that he has ought to be ours, and his mother is also our mother. (Sermon, Christmas, 1529).

Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary's virginal womb . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.

Christ . . . was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him . . . I am inclined to agree with those who declare that 'brothers' really mean 'cousins' here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers.

A new lie about me is being circulated. I am supposed to have preached and written that Mary, the mother of God, was not a virgin either before or after the birth of Christ . . . (That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew (1523)

When Matthew [1:25] says that Joseph did not know Mary carnally until she had brought forth her son, it does not follow that he knew her subsequently; on the contrary, it means that he never did know her . . . This babble . . . is without justification . . . he has neither noticed nor paid any attention to either Scripture or the common idiom...(That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew 1523)

 

[PaladinValer]

Simon, I already confronted you on this before.

His views were that she was Ever-Virgin, Theotokos and Christokos, and Mother of God.

He was also a devoted devotee of her too.

 

[Debi1967]

What did Luther say?

The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart. (Sermon, September 1, 1522).

[She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ . . . She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures. (Sermon, Christmas, 1531).

No woman is like you. You are more than Eve or Sarah, blessed above all nobility, wisdom, and sanctity. (Sermon, Feast of the Visitation, 1537).

One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God's grace . . . Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ . . . Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God. (Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521).

Mary is the Mother of Jesus and the Mother of all of us even though it was Christ alone who reposed on her knees . . . If he is ours, we ought to be in his situation; there where he is, we ought also to be and all that he has ought to be ours, and his mother is also our mother. (Sermon, Christmas, 1529).

Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary's virginal womb . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.

Christ . . . was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him . . . I am inclined to agree with those who declare that 'brothers' really mean 'cousins' here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers.

A new lie about me is being circulated. I am supposed to have preached and written that Mary, the mother of God, was not a virgin either before or after the birth of Christ . . . (That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew (1523)

When Matthew [1:25] says that Joseph did not know Mary carnally until she had brought forth her son, it does not follow that he knew her subsequently; on the contrary, it means that he never did know her . . . This babble . . . is without justification . . . he has neither noticed nor paid any attention to either Scripture or the common idiom...(That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew 1523)

I think was documentation enough and Palidin Valer is right, Luther was extremely devoted to the Mother.

 

[simonthezealot]

I think was documentation enough and Palidin Valer is right, Luther was extremely devoted to the Mother.

REALLY>>>>
Luther mocks those who would call upon Mary or venerate her.
Luther states below that those who seek Christ through Mary do so by the use of “reason,” and “reason is by nature a harmful harlot.”

Here is the context from LuthersWorks 51:375-376:

“Therefore, when we preach faith, that we should worship nothing but God alone, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, as we say in the Creed: “I believe in God the Father almighty and in Jesus Christ,” then we are remaining in the temple at Jerusalem. Again, “This is my beloved Son; listen to him” “You will find him in a manger”. He alone does it. But reason says the opposite: What, us? Are we to worship only Christ? Indeed, shouldn’t we also honor the holy mother of Christ? She is the woman who bruised the head of the serpent.  Hear us, Mary, for thy Son so honors thee that he can refuse thee nothing. Here Bernard went too far in his “Homilies on the Gospel ‘ Missus est Angelus .’ ”  God has commanded that we should honor the parents; therefore I will call upon Mary. She will intercede for me with the Son, and the Son with the Father, who will listen to the Son. So you have the picture of God as angry and Christ as judge; Mary shows to Christ her breast and Christ shows his wounds to the wrathful Father. That’s the kind of thing this comely bride, the wisdom of reason cooks up: Mary is the mother of Christ, surely Christ will listen to her; Christ is a stern judge, therefore I will call upon St. George and St. Christopher. No, we have been by God’s command baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, just as the Jews were circumcised. Therefore, just as the Jews set up all over the land their own self-chosen shrines, as if Jerusalem were too narrow, so we also have done. As a young man must resist lust and an old man avarice, so reason is by nature a harmful harlot. But she shall not harm me, if only I resist her. Ah, but she is so comely and glittering. That’s why there must be preachers who will point people to the catechism: I believe in Jesus Christ, not in St. George or St. Christopher, for only of Christ is it said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world”; not of Mary or the angels. The Father did not speak of Gabriel or any others when he cried from heaven, “Listen to him.”

 

[Debi1967]

REALLY>>>>
Luther mocks those who would call upon Mary or venerate her.
Luther states below that those who seek Christ through Mary do so by the use of “reason,” and “reason is by nature a harmful harlot.”

Here is the context from LuthersWorks 51:375-376:

“Therefore, when we preach faith, that we should worship nothing but God alone, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, as we say in the Creed: “I believe in God the Father almighty and in Jesus Christ,” then we are remaining in the temple at Jerusalem. Again, “This is my beloved Son; listen to him” “You will find him in a manger”. He alone does it. But reason says the opposite: What, us? Are we to worship only Christ? Indeed, shouldn’t we also honor the holy mother of Christ? She is the woman who bruised the head of the serpent.  Hear us, Mary, for thy Son so honors thee that he can refuse thee nothing. Here Bernard went too far in his “Homilies on the Gospel ‘ Missus est Angelus .’ ”  God has commanded that we should honor the parents; therefore I will call upon Mary. She will intercede for me with the Son, and the Son with the Father, who will listen to the Son. So you have the picture of God as angry and Christ as judge; Mary shows to Christ her breast and Christ shows his wounds to the wrathful Father. That’s the kind of thing this comely bride, the wisdom of reason cooks up: Mary is the mother of Christ, surely Christ will listen to her; Christ is a stern judge, therefore I will call upon St. George and St. Christopher. No, we have been by God’s command baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, just as the Jews were circumcised. Therefore, just as the Jews set up all over the land their own self-chosen shrines, as if Jerusalem were too narrow, so we also have done. As a young man must resist lust and an old man avarice, so reason is by nature a harmful harlot. But she shall not harm me, if only I resist her. Ah, but she is so comely and glittering. That’s why there must be preachers who will point people to the catechism: I believe in Jesus Christ, not in St. George or St. Christopher, for only of Christ is it said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world”; not of Mary or the angels. The Father did not speak of Gabriel or any others when he cried from heaven, “Listen to him.”

Then what do you say about Luther himself contradicting himself, because that is exactly what is he is doing in this later work as opposed to his earlier work.....

How can a fallible man of contradictions, One man I might add be trusted for all doctrine

 

[simonthezealot]

Then what do you say about Luther himself contradicting himself, because that is exactly what is he is doing in this later work as opposed to his earlier work.....

How can a fallible man of contradictions, One man I might add be trusted for all doctrine

This is from his very last sermon at wittenberg.
BTW he isn't trusted for all doctrines...Scripture is!

 

[PaladinValer]

“Therefore, when we preach faith, that we should worship nothing but God alone, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, as we say in the Creed: “I believe in God the Father almighty and in Jesus Christ,” then we are remaining in the temple at Jerusalem. Again, “This is my beloved Son; listen to him” “You will find him in a manger”. He alone does it. But reason says the opposite: What, us? Are we to worship only Christ? Indeed, shouldn’t we also honor the holy mother of Christ?

Do you note that he is speaking about those worshiping her instead of just venerating her? This is what he is condemning.

Nicely taken out of context!

 

[Tyndale]

Then what do you say about Luther himself contradicting himself, because that is exactly what is he is doing in this later work as opposed to his earlier work.....

How can a fallible man of contradictions, One man I might add be trusted for all doctrine

Just the same way the thief on the cross beside Christ seen the error of his ways, repented (changed his direction like Abraham) and followed the Lord into paradise.

Christ loves sinners, he just hates the sin

 

[Debi1967]

Just the same way the thief on the cross beside Christ seen the error of his ways, repented (changed his direction like Abraham) and followed the Lord into paradise.

Christ loves sinners, he just hates the sin

So Iows then you are saying that ONE MAN can be trusted for all doctrine?

If this correct then I have more questions......

 

[Tyndale]

So Iows then you are saying that ONE MAN can be trusted for all doctrine?

If this correct then I have more questions......

Friend, please don't try to string me along, as the string is only a certain length

There is none other than God the Father, Christ the Son and the Holy Spirit who can be trusted for all doctrine. Luther, eventually seen the error of his ways, he's not the be all and end all of Christianity. The Reformation began when Christ assended into Heaven, it didn't begin with Luther. Luther was a tool for Christ's message, that's all

 

[BigNorsk]

It always seems hard for people to understand that it's good to honor Mary but that isn't a anything goes. For instance it was made quite clear in the Smalcald Articles, written by Luther himself, exactly what he thought about the invocation of the Saints, which would include Mary.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]25] The invocation of saints is also one of the abuses of Antichrist conflicting with the chief article, and destroys the knowledge of Christ. Neither is it commanded nor counseled, nor has it any example [or testimony] in Scripture, and even though it were a precious thing, as it is not [while, on the contrary, it is a most harmful thing], in Christ we have everything a thousandfold better [and surer, so that we are not in need of calling upon the saints]. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]26] And although the angels in heaven pray for us (as Christ Himself also does), as also do the saints on earth, and perhaps also in heaven, yet it does not follow thence that we should invoke and adore the angels and saints, and fast, hold festivals, celebrate Mass in their honor, make offerings, and establish churches, altars, divine worship, and in still other ways serve them, and regard them as helpers in need [as patrons and intercessors], and divide among them all kinds of help, and ascribe to each one a particular form of assistance, as the Papists teach and do. For this is idolatry, and such honor belongs alone to God. 27] For as a Christian and saint upon earth you can pray for me, not only in one, but in many necessities. But for this reason I am not obliged to adore and invoke you, and celebrate festivals, fast, make oblations, hold masses for your honor [and worship], and put my faith in you for my salvation. I can in other ways indeed honor, love, and thank you in Christ. 28] If now such idolatrous honor were withdrawn from angels and departed saints, the remaining honor would be without harm and would quickly be forgotten. For when advantage and assistance, both bodily and spiritual, are no more to be expected, the saints will not be troubled [the worship of the saints will soon vanish], neither in their graves nor in heaven. For without a reward or out of pure love no one will much remember, or esteem, or honor them [bestow on them divine honor]. [/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]What is often done is to read such things and then insert whatever definition of worship or honor or veneration that can be used to explain it away or try and get it to mean something different than it says.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]If you question just what Luther is talking about, he gives a whole bunch of examples of what he calls idolatry at [26][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In general, if you read an early Luther, you can see Mary quite a bit, and indeed he was quite intense in his early worship of Mary. But we see him correct his position over time to where he honors her, but does not improperly honor her. To give people a feel for the timeline, Luther wrote the Smalcald Articles in 1537.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Marv[/FONT]

 

[Amylisa]

Well all I can say at the moment is that, in both of the films I have seen about Luther....though they were good movies, both just made me want to become a Catholic even more.