Luther's "Bondage of the Will"

[JMRE5150]

I have a brief question(s) that I will start this thread on, and allow the responses to dictate where the thread goes from there. Please note that I am an ELCA Lutheran, for what its worth.

Luther clearly had distinct and emotionalized opinions over Erasmus' diatribe of Free Will. Frankly, Luther absolutely did NOT believe that man had little or any Free Will of his own. And to state that one has Free Will is acknowledgement of "being God" or "taking away from the soveirgnty of God". Today's ELCA chooses to abstain from the Predestination vs Free Will debate, unofficially taking a neutral "we just don't know" stance.

When do you think the Lutheran church veered from some of Luther's teachings/ideas? (He was against dancing, celebration of holidays, and obviously free will)

How does this affect our loyalty to Luther's teachings as a whole?

Here is an exert from "Bondage of the Will" by Martin Luther:

"First, God has promised certainly His grace to the humbled: that is, to the self-deploring and despairing. But a man cannot be thoroughly humbled, until he comes to know that his salvation is utterly beyond his own powers, counsel, endeavours, will, and works, and absolutely depending on the will, counsel, pleasure, and work of another, that is, of God only. For if, as long as he has any persuasion that he can do even the least thing himself towards his own salvation, he retain a confidence in himself and do not utterly despair in himself, so long he is not humbled before God; but he proposes to himself some place, some time, or some work, whereby he may at length attain unto salvation. But he who hesitates not to depend wholly upon the good-will of God, he totally despairs in himself, chooses nothing for himself, but waits for God to work in him; and such as one, is the nearest unto grace, that he might be saved. "

Strikingly, I can somewhat agree with what Luther says here (which is absolutely Calvinistic) even though I do NOT share Calvinistic viewpoints. It does tickle ones brain to think that if we reserve even the slightest actions in life as our own, we are indeed not COMPLETELY despairing or wanting. I guess the real arguement between Luther and Erasmus is whether or not being 97% desperate in life, or absolutely undeniably 100% desperate and willing to relinquish all will and actions (even simple ones) to God as His Will is the key to salvation.

DISCUSS!

 

[JVAC]

Hey, fellow ELCA member!

I'm gonna talk about the holidays real quick. Luther appalled all the drunkeness that happened on the festivals, and he also didn't like the fact that so many days were taken off of work to do them. Plus they (Church of Rome) made it seem that if you didn't celebrate a festival you were endangering your soul. He encouraged what are called "Optional Festivals" or "Lesser Festivals", and this is what the Church teaches today.

So you have the option of celebrating a festival or not, without fear of hell. That is why on February 18th, "The Festival of Martin Luther; Renewer of the Church" is so little known, because most people decide not to celebrate it.

As for dancing I have no clue, Luther was an great musician and I assumed with musicianship came dancing. This was news to me. But it sorta reminds me of a quote from "The Producers", (if you don't know german "Fuhrer" means leader, originally it talks about hitler, however it works here too) "No one really knows but the Fuhrer was an excellent dancer!"

 

[ByzantineDixie]

Here is an exert from "Bondage of the Will" by Martin Luther:

"First, God has promised certainly His grace to the humbled: that is, to the self-deploring and despairing. But a man cannot be thoroughly humbled, until he comes to know that his salvation is utterly beyond his own powers, counsel, endeavours, will, and works, and absolutely depending on the will, counsel, pleasure, and work of another, that is, of God only. For if, as long as he has any persuasion that he can do even the least thing himself towards his own salvation, he retain a confidence in himself and do not utterly despair in himself, so long he is not humbled before God; but he proposes to himself some place, some time, or some work, whereby he may at length attain unto salvation. But he who hesitates not to depend wholly upon the good-will of God, he totally despairs in himself, chooses nothing for himself, but waits for God to work in him; and such as one, is the nearest unto grace, that he might be saved. "

Hello fellow Lutheran (I am of the LCMS persuasion myself)

The quote you selected from Bondage of the Will in no way conflicts with what Lutherans teach. Lutherans teach man can do absolutely NOTHING to attain salvation (horizontal righteousness) further man can do NOTHING apart from God to even do good works (vertical righteousness). We can not accept...it is all the work of God.

HOWEVER, we are taught that God will allow us to be turned over to our own desires. This may result in rejection or falling away.

Now...the rub in further discussing this for me is that I have not read Bondage of the Will. As a result of some earlier discussion on this board I am trying to locate a faithful translation and a few balanced commentaries on the subject. I have seen a handful of articles written by reformed theologians regarding Lutherans abandoning Luther's stance on this subject but I am hesitant to be persuaded by some modern day theologian who has a theological axe to grind. So I must reserve comment for another day and time...

But lets just hypothetically say we did abandon Luther's stance (and I am in no way admitting that...just for the sake of further conversation)...so what? We all need to be convinced of the doctrine we believe based on what the Scriptures say...not what some angry, opinionated (albeit lovable and genius ) monk wrote in 1525. Luther would be the first to admonish us on this point! Right?

Peace

Rose

 

[Phoebe]

I agree that it is plausible to stray from some of what Luther taught. We are to put our trust in God, not man. I also need to read Bondage of the Will. I have a copy of it.

Was Luther saying we can't bring about our own salvation, but we can reject it?

BTW- I am also ELCA.

 

[BBAS 64]

Good Day,

ELCA/LCMS


Bill

 

[Bulldog]

Good Day,

ELCA/LCMS


Bill

Two different Lutheran churches.


ELCA stands for Evangelcal Lutheran Church (in) America

LCMS stands for Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod


links:

http://www.elca.org

http://www.lcms.org

 

[JVAC]

Don't forget our one 'elitist' WELS member!!

Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod

Good times!!

 

[reformedfan]

Here's some Luther trivia for ya from a Calvinist.

Luther preached more on predestination than Calvin.

The only reason TULIP is synonomous with Calvinism & Calvin is that Calvinists didn't radically depart from Calvin's teachings the way Luther's did.

(Now what is it you're not allowed to do with people from other denominations? read their posts or pray with them or something? Good thing ya keep those dividing lines up, that's EXACTLY how it is in heaven, chuckle.)

 

[Bulldog]

Here's some Luther trivia for ya from a Calvinist.

Luther preached more on predestination than Calvin.

The only reason TULIP is synonomous with Calvinism & Calvin is that Calvinists didn't radically depart from Calvin's teachings the way Luther's did.

(Now what is it you're not allowed to do with people from other denominations? read their posts or pray with them or something? Good thing ya keep those dividing lines up, that's EXACTLY how it is in heaven, chuckle.)

Wow, reformedfan, I didn't know that. Maybe we should be called Lutherans.

 

[reformedfan]

Wow, reformedfan, I didn't know that. Maybe we should be called Lutherans.

Luther & ol' Calvie disagreed on too many important things. Luther said if Scripture didn't forbid it, have at it; Calvie said we should not go beyond what Scripture commands. Those may sound similar, but think about those ideas & you'll see a vast chasm in theological thought & approach to worship.
Then there's consubstantiation, no way! I hope we never have to move & find a new church, cuz where on earth would we go!?!

I know a dandy former Luthern pastor. At his seminary he was relentlessly picked on & called names derogatory of Calvinism because he was such a fan of the real Luther's books & theology. (I think he's prob a 3 or 4 pointer. A lot more faithful to Luther's teachings than today's Lutherns.)

Glad you actually answered. Never know about Lutherns.

 

[Bulldog]

Luther & ol' Calvie disagreed on too many important things. Luther said if Scripture didn't forbid it, have at it; Calvie said we should not go beyond what Scripture commands. Those may sound similar, but think about those ideas & you'll see a vast chasm in theological thought & approach to worship.
Then there's consubstantiation, no way! I hope we never have to move & find a new church, cuz where on earth would we go!?!

Oh Yeah, I forgot about all that.

 

[Bulldog]

I know a dandy former Luthern pastor. At his seminary he was relentlessly picked on & called names derogatory of Calvinism because he was such a fan of the real Luther's books & theology. (I think he's prob a 3 or 4 pointer. A lot more faithful to Luther's teachings than today's Lutherns.)

Yep, I even see some Lutherans today who have arminian beliefs.

Glad you actually answered. Never know about Lutherns.

LOL!

 

[Lotar]

reformedfan,

Some more education is in order...

Lutherans, like Luther, believe in single predestination, that those who are saved are saved by the work of God alone, and that those who are lost are lost because of their own sin and the hardness of their hearts. We reject limited attonement, and eternal election. We do not abide by any 5 point explaination, Calvinist or Arminian.

While reading Luther's works, you make the same mistake that you make while reading the bible. For example,

Faith is the Result of Election, Not the Reason for It
If you cling to the Lord Christ, you are certainly one of the many whom God from the beginning has chosen to be His own; otherwise they would not come and would not listen to this revelation or accept it. Note that in this revelation or accept it. Note that in this way that great temptation is directly beaten back - and all those disputes about the secret predestination with which some so severely torment and frighten themselves that they are in danger of losing their minds. Yet they achieve nothing except that they give the devil an opportunity to lead them to hell through despair. For this you should know: all such suggestions and disputes about predestination are surely of the devil. For what the scripture says about it is not recorded in order to worry and frighten poor, toubled souls, who feel their sin and would gladly be rid of it, but rather to comfort them. Therefore let those worry about this matter who neither have the Gospel nor want to listen to Christ.
-Martin Luther

You would read this and assume that he agrees with your position, which cannot be farther from the truth. You read what is not there, you make the mistake of believing that if God elects people to eternal salvation, then He must also elect people to damnation. This is not so and contradicts what scripture clearly teaches, that Christ died for the sins of the world and that He wishes that none would be lost.


Why Does God Not Convert All?
Correctly you say: If God does not desire our death, the fact that we perish must be charged to our own will. This is correct, I say, if you speak of the God who is preached; for He does want all men to be saved, because He comes to all by the Word of salvation, and the will which does not recieve Him is at fault, as He says in Matthew 23 (v. 37): How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldst not. But why that Majesty does not take away or change this fault of our will in all persons, seeing that it is not in the power of man to do so, or why He lays to the charge of man what man cannot avoid, we are not allowed to investigate; and even though you were to investigate much, yet you would never find out, as Paul says in Rom. 9:20: "Who art thou that repliest against God?"
-Martin Luther, against the free will theory of Erasmus.

Salvation Is There for All Men
If salvation is intended for all men, then it certianly belongs to us also, and the redemption cannot fail. For St. Paul speaks these words by the Holy Spirit, who is the Spirit of truth. Therefore the fault lies with them who refuse to believe and accept the redemption.
-Martin Luther


There is no Lutheran denomination that teaches Arminianism, though there are individuals who mistakenly believe this.

You would do best to not talk of what you do not know, especially when you feel the urge to be an elitist.

7. GOD'S ELECTION OF GRACE

We confess that those in this life who, through the Gospel, have been called, enlightened,
sanctified, and preserved in the true faith, have from eternity been elected according to
God's unmerited love to this adoption as His children, and have been chosen in Christ
"before the creation of the world" to be heirs of everlasting life. Therefore Christians can
and should be sure of their salvation, since God's promise is steadfast and His gracious
election to salvation stands firm. We reject the teaching that there is an eternal election to
damnation (double predestination) and that the offer of salvation which God makes
through the Gospel is not earnestly intended for all people. In faith we accept the teaching
of Scripture that those who are saved are saved by the grace of God alone, and that those
who are lost are lost because of their own unbelief and hardness of heart. See Rom. 8:26-
39, Eph. 1:3-6, 2 Thes. 2:13-14, 1 Tim. 1:15, 2 Tim. 1:12, Ezek. 33:11, Hos. 13:9.

http://www.evluthsyn.org/

10. We teach that conversion consists in this, that a man, having learned from the Law of God that he is a lost and condemned sinner, is brought to faith in the Gospel, which offers him forgiveness of sins and eternal salvation for the sake of Christ's vicarious satisfaction, Acts 11:21; Luke 24:46, 47; Acts 26:18.

11. All men, since the Fall, are dead in sins, Eph. 2:1-3, and inclined only to evil, Gen. 6:5; 8:21; Rom. 8:7. For this reason, and particularly because men regard the Gospel of Christ, crucified for the sins of the world, as foolishness, 1 Cor. 2:14, faith in the Gospel, or conversion to God, is neither wholly nor in the least part the work of man, but the work of God's grace and almighty power alone, Phil. 1:29; Eph. 2:8; 1:19; -- Jer. 31:18. Hence Scripture call the faith of men, or his conversion, a raising from the dead, Eph. 1:20; Col. 2:12, a being born of God, John 1:12, 13, a new birth by the Gospel, 1 Pet, 1:23-25, a work of God like the creation of light at the creation of the world, 2 Cor. 4:6.

12. On the basis of these clear statements of the Holy Scriptures we reject every kind of synergism, that is, the doctrine that conversion is wrought not by the grace and power of God alone, but in part also by the co-operation of man himself, by man's right conduct, his right attitude, his right self-determination, his lesser guilt or less evil conduct as compared with others, his refraining from willful resistance, or anything else whereby man's conversion and salvation is taken out of the gracious hands of God and made to depend on what man does or leaves undone. For this refraining from willful resistance or from any kind of resistance is also solely a work of grace, which "changes unwilling into willing men," Ezek. 36:26; Phil. 2:13. We reject also the doctrine that man is able to decide for conversion through "powers imparted by grace," since this doctrine presupposes that before conversion man still possesses spiritual powers by which he can make the right use of such "powers imparted by grace."

13. On the other hand, we reject also the Calvinistic perversion of the doctrine of conversion, that is, the doctrine that God does not desire to convert and save all hearers of the Word, but only a portion of them. Many hearers of the Word indeed remain unconverted and are not saved, not because God does not earnestly desire their conversion and salvation, but solely because they stubbornly resist the gracious operation of the Holy Ghost, as Scripture teaches, Acts 7:51; Matt. 23:37; Acts 13:46.

14. As to the question why not all men are converted and saved, seeing that God's grace is universal and all men are equally and utterly corrupt, we confess that we cannot answer it. From Scripture we know only this: A man owes his conversion and salvation, not to any lesser guilt or better conduct on his part, but solely to the grace of God. But any man's non-conversion is due to himself alone; it is the result of his obstinate resistance against the converting operation of the Holy Ghost. Hos. 13:9.

15. Our refusal to go beyond what is revealed in these two Scriptural truths is not "masked Calvinism" ("Crypto- Calvinism") but precisely the Scriptural teaching of the Lutheran Church as it is presented in detail in the Formula of Concord (Triglot, p. 1081, paragraphs 57-59, 60b, 62, 63; M. p. 716f.): "That one is hardened, blinded, given over to a reprobate mind, while another, who is indeed in the same guilt, is converted again, etc. -- in these and similar questions Paul fixes a certain limit to us how far we should go, namely, that in the one part we should recognize God's judgment. For they are well-deserved penalties of sins when God so punished a land or nation for despising His Word that the punishment extends also to their posterity, as is to be seen in the Jews. And thereby God in some lands and persons exhibits His severity to those that are His in order to indicate what we all would have well deserved and would be worthy and worth, since we act wickedly in opposition to God's Word and often grieve the Holy Ghost sorely; in order that we may live in the fear of God and acknowledge and praise God's goodness, to the exclusion of, and contrary to, our merit in and with us, to whom He gives His Word and with whom He leaves it and whom He does not harden and reject...And this His righteous, well-deserved judgment He displays in some countries, nations and persons in order that, when we are placed alongside of them and compared with them (quam simillimi illis deprehensi, i.e., and found to be most similar to them), we may learn the more diligently to recognize and praise God's pure, unmerited grace in the vessels of mercy...When we proceed thus far in this article, we remain on the right way, as it is written, Hos. 13:9: `O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in Me is thy help.' However, as regards these things in this disputation which would soar too high and beyond these limits, we should with Paul place the finger upon our lips and remember and say, Rom. 9:20: `O man, who art thou that repliest against God?'" The Formula of Concord describes the mystery which confronts us here not as a mystery in man's heart (a "psychological" mystery), but teaches that, when we try to understand why "one is hardened, blinded, given over to a reprobate mind, while another, who is indeed in the same guilt, is converted again," we enter the domain of the unsearchable judgments of God and ways past finding out, which are not revealed to us in His Word, but which we shall know in eternal life. 1 Cor. 13:12.

16. Calvinists solve this mystery, which God has not revealed in His Word, by denying the universality of grace; synergists, by denying that salvation is by grace alone. Both solutions are utterly vicious, since they contradict Scripture and since every poor sinner stands in need of, and must cling to, both the unrestricted universal grace and the unrestricted "by grace alone," lest he despair and perish.

http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=569


We discussed this topic in depth this very week:
http://www.christianforums.com/t91706&page=1

 

[Bulldog]

reformedfan,

Some more education is in order...

Lutherans, like Luther, believe in single predestination, that those who are saved are saved by the work of God alone, and that those who are lost are lost because of their own sin and the hardness of their hearts. We reject limited attonement, and eternal election. We do not abide by any 5 point explaination, Calvinist or Arminian.

While reading Luther's works, you make the same mistake that you make while reading the bible. For example,

Faith is the Result of Election, Not the Reason for It
If you cling to the Lord Christ, you are certainly one of the many whom God from the beginning has chosen to be His own; otherwise they would not come and would not listen to this revelation or accept it. Note that in this revelation or accept it. Note that in this way that great temptation is directly beaten back - and all those disputes about the secret predestination with which some so severely torment and frighten themselves that they are in danger of losing their minds. Yet they achieve nothing except that they give the devil an opportunity to lead them to hell through despair. For this you should know: all such suggestions and disputes about predestination are surely of the devil. For what the scripture says about it is not recorded in order to worry and frighten poor, toubled souls, who feel their sin and would gladly be rid of it, but rather to comfort them. Therefore let those worry about this matter who neither have the Gospel nor want to listen to Christ.
-Martin Luther

You would read this and assume that he agrees with your position, which cannot be farther from the truth. You read what is not there, you make the mistake of believing that if God elects people to eternal salvation, then He must also elect people to damnation. This is not so and contradicts what scripture clearly teaches, that Christ died for the sins of the world and that He wishes that none would be lost.


Why Does God Not Convert All?
Correctly you say: If God does not desire our death, the fact that we perish must be charged to our own will. This is correct, I say, if you speak of the God who is preached; for He does want all men to be saved, because He comes to all by the Word of salvation, and the will which does not recieve Him is at fault, as He says in Matthew 23 (v. 37): How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldst not. But why that Majesty does not take away or change this fault of our will in all persons, seeing that it is not in the power of man to do so, or why He lays to the charge of man what man cannot avoid, we are not allowed to investigate; and even though you were to investigate much, yet you would never find out, as Paul says in Rom. 9:20: "Who art thou that repliest against God?"
-Martin Luther, against the free will theory of Erasmus.

Salvation Is There for All Men
If salvation is intended for all men, then it certianly belongs to us also, and the redemption cannot fail. For St. Paul speaks these words by the Holy Spirit, who is the Spirit of truth. Therefore the fault lies with them who refuse to believe and accept the redemption.
-Martin Luther

Wouldn't that be contradictory to this:

"All things whatever arise from, and depend on, the divine appointment; whereby it was foreordained who should receive the word of life, and who should disbelieve it; who should be delivered from their sins, and who should be hardened in them; and who should be justified and who should be condemned."
- Martin Luther

 

[Rechtgläubig]

Don't forget our one 'elitist' WELS member!!

Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod

Good times!!

Oh dear, what have I started?

Thanks for remembering me JVAC!

 

[ByzantineDixie]

Wouldn't that be contradictory to this:

"All things whatever arise from, and depend on, the divine appointment; whereby it was foreordained who should receive the word of life, and who should disbelieve it; who should be delivered from their sins, and who should be hardened in them; and who should be justified and who should be condemned."
- Martin Luther

Luther wrote this in 1516 while still heavily influenced by Augustine. The important aspect to understanding Luther and Lutherans is really following the evolution of Luther's work...as Luther's thinking evolved and as he was able to distance himself from earlier presuppositions and influences.

Just like Scripture....Luther must be evaluated as a whole package--not just in light of a quote here and there.

In 1539, at table, Luther said something that is in harmony with what the Formula of Concord and confessional Lutherans believe and teach. Addressing the question "Why some and not others?" he said: "This difference is to be ascribed to man, not to the will of God, for the promises of God are universal [emphasis added]. He will have all men to be saved. Hence it is not the fault of our Lord God, who promises salvation, but it is our fault if we are unwilling to believe it" [Weimar Edition, Table Talk 4, No. 4665, quoted in translation in Luther's Works 33, page 11, n. 17].

Does this help some?

Peace

Rose

 

[Bulldog]

Luther wrote this in 1516 while still heavily influenced by Augustine. The important aspect to understanding Luther and Lutherans is really following the evolution of Luther's work...as Luther's thinking evolved and as he was able to distance himself from earlier presuppositions and influences.

Just like Scripture....Luther must be evaluated as a whole package--not just in light of a quote here and there.



Does this help some?

Peace

Rose

Yes, thank you. I knew Luthers view changed abou this, i just thought that the quote I gave was what he changed it into. Guess I was wrong.

 

[Bulldog]

Doublepost

 

[JMRE5150]

You would do best to not talk of what you do not know, especially when you feel the urge to be an elitist.

Hmmm, this is a bit harsh, would you say?

Either way, thats for helping clear some stuff up for me. I do appreciate the clarity on the subject.

I do understand that Luther's teachings as a whole shoulkd be viewed as a solid piece, much like the Bible...however, we must be careful when adhereing to some of Luthers views. Most notably his later years when his hatred for Jews began to show through.
While I have been a Lutheran all my 32 years, this 'view' of Martin Luther's has always been a sore spot on a genius' resume. Now, with that said, looking at Luther's teachings as a 'whole' can't always been done. This would mean taking those anti-semetic teachings into the 'whole', and that we shouldn't do. Then again, some folks like to be 'selective' in what they consider a 'whole'.
Anyway, it has been excellent information here from alot of people. Keep up the good talk!

Oh, and can we keep it nice, please? Nothing more heartbreaking than seeing christians argue with or belittle each other.

 

[ByzantineDixie]

Now, with that said, looking at Luther's teachings as a 'whole' can't always been done. This would mean taking those anti-semetic teachings into the 'whole', and that we shouldn't do.

Oh, I completely agree with you here. While Luther was an important figure in the reformation he was definitely not infallible. And card carrying Lutherans do not have to believe that he was!!!

Scripture is the ultimate standard by which all teachings must be measured...even Luther's.

Have a GREAT day in HIM!!!

Rose