Lutherans, Orthodox Church reach agreement on 1,000-year debate over Nicene Creed

[Michie]

The Lutheran World Federation and the Orthodox Church have announced an agreement on the debate over the “Filioque” clause of the Nicene Creed, which prompted the schism between Western and Eastern churches over 1,000 years ago.

Meaning “and the Son” in Latin, Filioque was added to the Nicene Creed during the Medieval Era to make the statement of faith say that the Holy Spirit proceeded from both God the Father and the Son.

The dispute over whether the Holy Spirit proceeded from both personages of the Trinity helped lead to the Great Schism of 1054, which split Christianity into a Western Church and Eastern Church.


Continued below.

Lutherans, Orthodox Church reach agreement on 1,000-year debate over Nicene Creed

The Lutheran World Federation and the Orthodox Church have announced an agreement on the debate over the Filioque clause of the Nicene Creed, which prompted the schism between Western and Eastern

www.christianpost.com

 

[jas3]

Here is the joint statement in full:

https://lutheranworld.org/sites/default/files/2024-07/Lutheran-Orthodox-Joint-Statement-Filioque-EN.pdf

It's interesting that this seems to be almost an abandonment of the filioque on the part of the Lutherans. There's no attempt to say that procedit could apply to the Spirit's procession from the Son in Western versions of the Creed even if ἐκπορευόμενον can't, which in Catholic-Orthodox discussions of the filioque always seems to be a sticking point.

 

[The Liturgist]

Unfortunately its the Lutheran World Federation and not the International Lutheran Council, with whom the Orthodox have the most in common. Many LWF churches perform gay marriage and do other things we regard as intolerable. We should have been in dialogue with the ILC and its members like the LCC/LCMS, of which my friend @MarkRohfrietsch is a member.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Unfortunately its the Lutheran World Federation and not the International Lutheran Council, with whom the Orthodox have the most in common. Many LWF churches perform gay marriage and do other things we regard as intolerable. We should have been in dialogue with the ILC and its members like the LCC/LCMS, of which my friend @MarkRohfrietsch is a member.

I just discussed this with some of our clergy and they agree with my position; this is either false ecumanism or a photo-op (which would be false ecumanism). Honestly, I don't get why the OC would even participate with a group that is more about wokeism than Christianity. Christian universalism? Certainly not from the OC's position. The LWF are maybe hoping that they can add another colour to the rainbow flag of prideful inclusivity.

 

[The Liturgist]

I just discussed this with some of our clergy and they agree with my position; this is either false ecumanism or a photo-op (which would be false ecumanism). Honestly, I don't get why the OC would even participate with a group that is more about wokeism than Christianity. Christian universalism? Certainly not from the OC's position. The LWF are maybe hoping that they can add another colour to the rainbow flag of prideful inclusivity.

Well, I think there is a financial component: ELCA churches are known for hosting smaller Oriental Orthodox congregations, and this might also be true with the Eastern Orthodox; I don’t know, but also several of the LWF churches help to finance vital humanitarian efforts to assist the persecuted Christians in the Middle East. And the Church of Sweden and other churches in the LWF have supported immigration policies that have been extremely beneficial for Christians in the Middle East whose situation has become untenable; on the other hand, these policies have also allowed for large scale Muslim immigration into Europe which is obviously a security risk, but the Christians are safer there than elsewhere. They also are very good neighbors and integrate into the host country, so for example, the youth of the Syriac Orthodox Church in America are clearly American, the youth of the Syriac Orthodox Church in Germany are clearly German, and so on, as opposed to what we see with the Islamic immigrants where they form their own isolated communities or else form an extremely hybridized community which in either case tends to have problems related to organized crime, like most isolated ethnic communities (in the US, we experienced the same phenomenon as a result of our culture systematically discriminating against Irish and Italian immigrants in terms of access to housing, et cetera, but in Europe, the isolation is by choice and is driven by a desire to maintain Islamic purity).

 

[prodromos]

Who were the Orthodox involved in this joint statement? Why are there no names?

 

[jas3]

Who were the Orthodox involved in this joint statement? Why are there no names?

It took a little digging, but I found an article that gives their names and affiliations:

Work for Dialogue between Orthodox and Lutherans in Cairo was successfully completed | Orthodox Times (en)

The third and final meeting of the 18th Plenary Session of the International Joint Commission on the Theological Dialogue between the Orthodox Church and the Lutheran World Federation took place between 24 and 31 May 2024 in Cairo, Egypt. The meeting was hosted by the Patriarchate of Alexandria...

orthodoxtimes.com

"The Orthodox Church was represented by: Metropolitan Kirillos of Krini (Ecumenical Patriarchate), Deacon Ecumenius Amanitidis, Under-Secretary of the Holy and Sacred Synod (Co-Secretary, Ecumenical Patriarchate), Metropolitan Petros of Axum (Patriarchate of Alexandria), Archimandrite Philip Hall (Patriarchate of Antioch), Dr. Rade Kisić (Patriarchate of Serbia), Protopr. Dr. Georgios Zviadadze (Patriarchate of Georgia), Metropolitan Isaiah of Tamasos and Oreini (Church of Cyprus), Metropolitan Gregorios of Peristeri (Church of Greece), Jerzy Betlejko (Church of Poland), Dr. Nathan Hoppe (Church of Albania), Ambassador Dr. Václav Ježek (Church of Czechia and Slovakia) and Counselors Protopresbyter Stefanos Chrysanthos (Church of Cyprus) and Protopresbyter Dr. Dimitrios Bathrellos (Church of Greece)."

 

[The Liturgist]

It took a little digging, but I found an article that gives their names and affiliations:

Work for Dialogue between Orthodox and Lutherans in Cairo was successfully completed | Orthodox Times (en)

The third and final meeting of the 18th Plenary Session of the International Joint Commission on the Theological Dialogue between the Orthodox Church and the Lutheran World Federation took place between 24 and 31 May 2024 in Cairo, Egypt. The meeting was hosted by the Patriarchate of Alexandria...

orthodoxtimes.com

"The Orthodox Church was represented by: Metropolitan Kirillos of Krini (Ecumenical Patriarchate), Deacon Ecumenius Amanitidis, Under-Secretary of the Holy and Sacred Synod (Co-Secretary, Ecumenical Patriarchate), Metropolitan Petros of Axum (Patriarchate of Alexandria), Archimandrite Philip Hall (Patriarchate of Antioch), Dr. Rade Kisić (Patriarchate of Serbia), Protopr. Dr. Georgios Zviadadze (Patriarchate of Georgia), Metropolitan Isaiah of Tamasos and Oreini (Church of Cyprus), Metropolitan Gregorios of Peristeri (Church of Greece), Jerzy Betlejko (Church of Poland), Dr. Nathan Hoppe (Church of Albania), Ambassador Dr. Václav Ježek (Church of Czechia and Slovakia) and Counselors Protopresbyter Stefanos Chrysanthos (Church of Cyprus) and Protopresbyter Dr. Dimitrios Bathrellos (Church of Greece)."

Well the presence of Serbians, Georgians and Antiochians is of good news insofar as those churches are particularly conservative, along with the Church of Jerusalem and the persecuted canonical Russian and Ukrainian churches.

 

[RileyG]

I just discussed this with some of our clergy and they agree with my position; this is either false ecumanism or a photo-op (which would be false ecumanism). Honestly, I don't get why the OC would even participate with a group that is more about wokeism than Christianity. Christian universalism? Certainly not from the OC's position. The LWF are maybe hoping that they can add another colour to the rainbow flag of prideful inclusivity.

Do you profess the Filioque, or no?

 

[The Liturgist]

I just discussed this with some of our clergy and they agree with my position; this is either false ecumanism or a photo-op (which would be false ecumanism). Honestly, I don't get why the OC would even participate with a group that is more about wokeism than Christianity. Christian universalism? Certainly not from the OC's position. The LWF are maybe hoping that they can add another colour to the rainbow flag of prideful inclusivity.

Oh also, did I mention that Finland and Ethiopia have substantial Orthodox populations? And the Lutheran churches thereof are conservative - by LWF standards, while conversely the Finnish Orthodox Church is notoriously liberal among Orthodox churches, although not to the point of disobedience on human sexuality, and the there was a schism in the Estonian church, and the parishes in Estonia under the Ecumenical Patriarchate are, along with the Finnish church, which is also under the Ecumenical Patriarchate, the only Eastern Orthodox parishes that use the Gregorian calendar for Pascha.* The Armenians also use it, except in Jerusalem, and so do the Syriac Orthodox churches in India.

At any rate, there are reasons why dialogue has been happening with the LWF, but I do really feel like we should have been cultivating improved relations with the LCMS/LCC and friends, since your churches are among those most akin to ours.



*Although that’s actually good, because it means I might get to experience a Kyriopascha in my lifetime (a rare occasion when Annunciation and Pascha happen on the same day), in 2035 - the next Julian Calendar Kyriopascha won’t be until 2075, by which time my continued vital existence becomes questionable, and in 1991, when the last Julian Calendar Kyriopascha happened, well, sadly I wasn’t paying attention. But I do hope the Finnish and Greco-Estonian churches can keep things together and avoid liberalism during the next ten and a half years.

In the year 6700, for the first time, there will be a Kyriopascha on both the Julian and the Gregorian calendars, so that is something to look forward to if you plan on entering suspended animation or traveling on a very fast starship to relativistic speeds on a round trip to and from Earth.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Do you profess the Filioque, or no?

Yes.

 

[RileyG]

Yes.

That's what I thought. I thought a majority of Protestants do with the exception of some Anglicans.

 

[The Liturgist]

That's what I thought. I thought a majority of Protestants do with the exception of some Anglicans.

Well apparently that dynamic has changed. And perhaps the Orthodox can save the failing Lutheran churches of the LWF; it is worth praying for, but I do feel we should have been working on this issue with the LCMS/LCC rather than the LWF people.

 

[RileyG]

Well apparently that dynamic has changed. And perhaps the Orthodox can save the failing Lutheran churches of the LWF; it is worth praying for, but I do feel we should have been working on this issue with the LCMS/LCC rather than the LWF people.

I wonder how ecumenical the LCMS really is and if they are willing to start dialogue with the Orthodox Church? I don't know.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I wonder how ecumenical the LCMS really is and if they are willing to start dialogue with the Orthodox Church? I don't know.

It is my understanding that the LCMS is in dialogue presently with the Catholic Church both officially and unofficially. Lutheran Church Canada also. Likewise, both are involved on an international scale through the ILC.

I don't see any reason that would prevent dialogue to explore our faiths between confessional Lutherans and the Orthodox.

 

[AJHnh]

It is my understanding that the LCMS is in dialogue presently with the Catholic Church both officially and unofficially. Lutheran Church Canada also. Likewise, both are involved on an international scale through the ILC.

I don't see any reason that would prevent dialogue to explore our faiths between confessional Lutherans and the Orthodox.

As a newer member of the LCMS ( 2021 after 60 years as a catholic..admittedly not always practicing) i would have loved the influence of the LCMS in the Catholic Church. My concern is this really a case of that or a large corporation taking a competitor out of the market. One may be beneficial the other not so much.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

As a newer member of the LCMS ( 2021 after 60 years as a catholic..admittedly not always practicing) i would have loved the influence of the LCMS in the Catholic Church. My concern is this really a case of that or a large corporation taking a competitor out of the market. One may be beneficial the other not so much.

Honestly, with some of the recent developments regarding policy and practice regarding other more "heterodox" (my opinion) christian groups as well as traditional Catholic teachings that were an issue at the reformation, and still remain impediments to fellowship. we are no closer to fellowship than we were the day the Augsburg Confession was presented at the Diet of Augsburg.

What has changed is that we are now a whole lot friendlier when it comes to agreeing to disagreeing.

 

[AJHnh]

Thanks for the reply. I Agree with your view on Luther. Without a doubt he and his writings were so instrumental in my joining the LCMS