Lutherans, could you please help me with this?

ByzantineDixie · Feb 8, 2004

Reformationist said:
Complete indifference? Maybe numbness?

God bless

What about using something on the order of "God giving us over to our own desires"? Would that cover the issue of falling away, indifference to the work of the Holy Spirit, etc., and accurately represent the doctrine?

(And to think just a year ago I was lamenting the fact that every time I had a discussion with a Lutheran I had to pick each of my words carefully so as not to get pounced on...now I actually WANT to pick my words carefully!!! What have I become!!! )

Peace

Rose

Breetai · Feb 8, 2004

As usual, Lotar is saying everything for me. THANKS LOTAR!!!!!

JVAC · Feb 8, 2004

Reformationist said:
I'm a little confused. Is this what the Lutheran church teaches? Do you believe that we "make the choice for Christ" and THEN we receive the Holy Spirit?

The ELCA is very lax on its free will/God's will possition. This allows the Lutheran to develop more or less their own theology on the issue. Like Real Pressence, wether it is transubstanciated or consubstanciated, it will not effect your salvation, so also is predestination. With this reasoning the Church feels quite confident in letting men deal with it how they will without fear of endangering thier soul and with a completely free conscience.

Are you Lutheran? The Bible is very clear that we are incapable of coming to Christ without the divine intervention of God. Even you said, "We are unable to do good." I would think that doing "good" would include coming to Christ. Luther was adamant about man's need to be regenerated and indwelt by the Holy Spirit prior to his recognition of his sinfulness and his making the choice for Christ.

I am Lutheran. Now we get into my thought rather than Luther's 'Bondage of the Will'. I do grant it merits but I don't always think of it as law. It is my belief that we all have free will, and that we can choose what we want to do or not do. Now this will was given in the begining time, but we were born fallen and so our reasoning is naturally evil, that is with out the trust in God. By man's will it is impossible to trust in God for what he needs. However, it is not beyond man to hope on Christ, for evil men can hope on whatever they will. It is through that hope and that Baptismal Grace that we are given the ability to trust in God and live for God. An evil man cannot live for God if he does not first hope on Christ. This is my understanding of the "Bound Will", in that one cannot do good without Trust in God, that is given by the Holy Spirit; man cannot gain that trust without first hoping on Christ and obtaining the Holy Spirit through Baptism. The will is bound but not completely placed assunder, for God gave man free will.

I'm am now officially confused. How can you call yourself Lutheran and believe something completely contrary to what Luther taught? Luther wasn't known for his tact. He was quite clear on man's utter inability to embrace God prior to regeneration. Don't you believe that or am I wrong in assuming you are Lutheran?

This is easy to describe I will quote something I found on St. Thomas Net Ministries "Lutherans never believed in the infallible Luther". Luther can err and so man mustn't be bound to embrace all his teachings. Still yet, Luther fought for freedom of a Christian, that is, a man can have free reign of his thought, unless it is contrary to Scripture, and this is where the Bishops come in. It is the duty of the Bishop to judge doctrine, and if heresy is present and endangers men's souls, then he executes his office in expounding upon the subject. As for Luther, he didn't think to much of the will of man, and neither do I, but I don't fully embrace his model; as I explained above.

Now this I agree with but it seems to be contradictory to your earlier statement that when man recognizes that he is born in sin, is a child of wrath, and is unable to do good then God sends us His Holy Spirit.

Have I just misunderstood you?

I grant I didnot elaberate to much, I was in a rush to get off to church. However, I hope I explained it enough here. I knew you wouldn't have a problem with original sin for you are a TULIP calvinist . I actually expected you to reply, I have noticed you always do in these threads and I enjoy your posts a great deal. Hope to hear from you soon!

-James

Lotar · Feb 8, 2004

ECLA heretics, I guess it's a good thing we broke off communion with you

The LCMS is more strict on the issue. Our view on how a person comes to salvation is pretty much the same as the Calvinist view, we differ when it comes to why the lost are lost, and whether salvation may be lost.

JVAC · Feb 8, 2004

Lotar said:
ECLA heretics, I guess it's a good thing we broke off communion with you

Is that in reference to my theory or this statement

Lutherans never believed in the infallible Luther"

-James

JVAC · Feb 8, 2004

BBAS 64 said:
Not sure what expression I would use for this instance much thought needed.

LOL,

Because he Loves you and he is good looking!

Peace to u,

BBAS

Hey BBAS, does that mean that all Lutherans are really really rediculously Good Looking? I think so, I mean look at our leader

-James

JVAC · Feb 8, 2004

Reformationist said:
:o Have you gone to church there for sermons and Bible study?

* Reformationist wonders how a person can be Lutheran and not have heard of predestination...

Predestination is one of the MAJOR themes of Luther's beliefs.

God bless

No it isn't, take a gander at the Augsburg Confession.

-James

ByzantineDixie · Feb 8, 2004

Lotar said:
ECLA heretics, I guess it's a good thing we broke off communion with you

Its a good thing Lutherans don't believe in reincarnation because with your eloquence we might be tempted to believe Lotar was the reincarnated Luther!

Peace

Rose

Phoebe · Feb 8, 2004

Luthers Rose said:
Its a good thing Lutherans don't believe in reincarnation because with your eloquence we might be tempted to believe Lotar was the reincarnated Luther!

Peace

Rose

Breetai · Feb 8, 2004

Its a good thing Lutherans don't believe in reincarnation because with your eloquence we might be tempted to believe Lotar was the reincarnated Luther!

Wait a minute....are you saying that he is not? Next thing you'll be saying that I'm not the reincarnated Philip Melanthon!

JVAC · Feb 8, 2004

LOL, yeah

Bulldog · Feb 8, 2004

JVAC said:
Hey BBAS, does that mean that all Lutherans are really really rediculously Good Looking? I think so, I mean look at our leader

-James

Judge for yourself:

http://www.mc.maricopa.edu/~tomshoemaker/graphic2/luther.gif

Phoebe · Feb 8, 2004

I'm prettier than Luther. LOL

JVAC · Feb 8, 2004

Bulldog said:
Judge for yourself:

http://www.mc.maricopa.edu/~tomshoemaker/graphic2/luther.gif

That doesn't look like the Luther I saw in the movies!!!!!!!!!!

ByzantineDixie · Feb 8, 2004

Oh my...while I respect all that Luther did...I don't like to think about what he looks like. Phoebe...I truly believe you are prettier than Luther, but then most people can make that claim!

Now when I think of Luther I like to think of him this way...oh mama! Now that is a good lookin' Lutheran (although my hubby is holding up well for his age, too! )

Peace

Rose

theologia crucis · Feb 8, 2004

A couple of quick comments regarding this thread:

Lutherans, could you please help me with this?

I was visiting the LCMS site and took a look on their view on predestination. They believe that God predestined some to salvation, and those who are condemned to Hell are condemned becuase of thier disbelief in Christ.

How does this make sense? If God predestined some to salvation, then wouldn't that by default mean that some were predestined to Hell?

Human reason says “yes” to your question, the Scriptures says “no”. Here’s an example how:

Another principal teaching… is that Scripture is the sole source of doctrine and practice. Although the ability to reason, which is also a gift from God, distinguishes human beings from animals, it is not to be regarded as the criterion by which questions of a religious nature are answered. Where paradoxes occur, a childlike faith must prevail over logical deductions. Scripture takes precedence over reason. This means that when, for example, God’s Word teaches a triune Deity—Father, Son and Holy Spirit—we bow to Biblical revelation, even though such a teaching is beyond the understanding of our human mind. The same is true when the Scriptures speak of the virgin birth of Jesus, of his twofold nature (God and man), of his resurrection and ascension, of the partaking of his body and blood in the Lord’s Supper. All these teachings we believe because they are stated in Scripture, although they are beyond our mortal comprehension.

Scripture must be the sole source of doctrine and practice because God’s written Word is in a class by itself, completely different from all other books. “All Scripture is God-breathed inspired” (2Ti 3:16) and “ … men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit” (2Pe 1:21). God is the author of all of Scripture. Through the Holy Spirit he directed the thoughts and the very words that the various human writers from Moses to John wrote, while employing their style and thought processes. It is the inspired, God-breathed Scripture from which all Christian doctrine and admonition must be derived, for Paul continues the passage just cited by declaring that all Scripture is to be used “for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness” (2Ti 3:16).

The teaching that Scripture alone, not reason, must be the only and final judge of doctrine may be illustrated by the answers to the question concerning the source of salvation and the source of damnation. Two answers have been given throughout the history of Christian thought—each logical according to our natural powers of reasoning. One reply is that man himself is finally responsible either for his salvation or damnation, depending on what he does or fails to do—including both his deeds and his personal decision. The other answer is that God is the ultimate source, depending on whether he has elected and predestined people to salvation or to damnation. According to rules of logic, each set of answers is reasonable and there is no third alternative. But according to Scripture, there is another reply to the query; namely, that God is the source of salvation (Eph 2:8–9) and man is responsible for damnation (Mt 23:37). So regardless of what our reason would dictate, we must answer theological questions on the basis of Scripture alone, which paradoxically teaches concerning salvation: “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith” (Eph 2:8) and concerning damnation: “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem … how often I have longed to gather your children together … but you were not willing” (Mt 23:37).

Robert G. Hoeber, Concordia Self-Study Bible, "Lutheran Edition of the NIV Study Bible" --Foreword., electronic ed. (St. Louis: Concordia Pub. House, 1997, c1986).

Emphasis mine

In short, Lutherans find NO Scripture at all to support the idea that some are predestined to eternal damnation. Lutherans find plenty of Scriptural support to say that those who are saved by grace alone through faith alone for Christ’s sake, are ALSO chosen to salvation by God from eternity. For Lutherans, eternal election is a teaching of comfort for the believer, not a teaching of faith. It is to strengthen the weak in faith in times of trouble or persecution.

In regards to two questions:

What in the world is going on here? This isn't what Luther taught? Aren't you guys Lutheran? I'm not even Lutheran and I know that Luther never taught that God loves everyone and wishes that none would be lost, at least not in the universal sense.

Luther and the Lutherans have always, believed, taught, and confessed that, on the basis of Scripture alone, that God does earnestly desire that not one sinner be lost. That is why God provided a way of salvation by which every single sinner that ever has and ever will live can be saved by, by grace, through faith, in Christ. That’s why we’ve got to get out and proclaim the Gospel to every creature.

Predestination is one of the MAJOR themes of Luther's beliefs.

No, it wasn’t.

No. 502: Predestination Related to the Grace of God
Spring, 1533

“Concerning the statement, ‘It depends not upon man’s will [or exertion, but upon God’s mercy,’ Rom. 9:16], I respond: In this passage Paul was doing nothing less than disputing about predestination, but he was speaking against the Jews and the righteousness of the law and he meant to say, ‘You must despair, give God the glory, and confess that you didn’t start it.’ When I was a monk I depended on such willing and exertion, but the longer [I worked at it] the farther away I got. What I have now I have not from exertion but from God. So in this passage Paul was saying everything against presumption, so that we may say, ‘Lord, whatever [good] there is in us exists by thy grace.’

“So he also appeals to that saying, ‘I will have mercy on whom I have mercy’ [Rom. 9:15], that is, ‘you won’t do it without my forgiveness.’ In short, all this is spoken against those who are proud: ‘He to whom I give it will have it; you are not to win it from me by your holiness.’ What more should he do? He says, ‘You are to have it. But when you seek it and insist on having it because of your righteousness, I won’t suffer it. I would rather throw everything away—priesthood, kingdom, even my law. But expect grace from me, and you will have it.’ ”

When somebody inquired whether a person [under the papacy] would be saved if he had not embraced this teaching of ours, he [Martin Luther] replied, “I really don’t know. God might have had regard for his baptism. This could do it. Even so, I have seen many [monks] die with a crucifix held before their eyes [as was then customary]. In spite of everything else, the name [of Christ] proved to be effective on their deathbed.

No. 514: Predestination Is an Impenetrable Mystery
Spring, 1533

“Paul wasn’t discussing predestination with the Jews but was disputing only with those who opposed it and said, ‘We are the people of God, we have the fathers, the promises were given to us,’ etc. He didn’t touch upon predestination except to repudiate the righteousness of the law. Paul said that we should not preach as if we could become good by our works, our fathers, etc. These don’t help. The others, those who believe, have it just as good as those who have fathers, etc. God has decreed it so from eternity. Hence Paul attacks only this.

“By grace alone are we saved. God doesn’t want to be obligated to anybody. Once we believe, he tells us (and this, too, is by grace), ‘Give, and it will be given to you [Luke 6:38]. You are bound to give in any ease, whether out of pity for the Turks or some other unfortunates, so you may just as well do it when I command it.’ We have no claim on him. So Esau and Jacob also testified to righteousness.

“Otherwise one can’t settle the deep questions of theology, but Paul simply argues that it is by grace alone that we are saved. He meant to stick to this. Think what it means that you are not saved by the law, etc., but the Jews have works! Nobody but Christ can solve this. Hence he [Paul] said, ‘O the depth [of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God,’ Rom. 11:33]!

No. 3655b: Speculations About Predestination Unhealthy
December 25, 1537

He [Martin Luther] spoke at length about the idle people who occupy themselves with disputation about predestination beyond the limits of Scripture. It is flue most ungodly and dangerous business to abandon the certain and revealed will of God in order to search into the hidden mysteries of God.”

No. 5070: Predestination Cannot Be Searched Out
Between June 11 and 19, 1540

“I was troubled,” said the doctor [Martin Luther], “by the thought of what God would do with me, but at length I repudiated such a thought and threw myself entirely on his revealed will. We can’t do any better than that. The hidden will of God can’t be searched out by man. God hides it on account of that very clever spirit, the devil, in order that he may be deceived. For he learned the revealed will from us, but God keeps the hidden will to himself. We have enough to learn about the humanity of Christ, in whom the Father revealed himself. But we are fools who neglect the revealed Word and the will of the Father in Christ and, instead, investigate mysteries which ought only be worshiped. As a result many break their necks.

Martin Luther, vol. 54, Luther's Works, Vol. 54 : Table Talk, ed. Jaroslav Jan Pelikan, Hilton C. Oswald and Helmut T. Lehmann, Luther's Works (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1999, c1967).

Also, in Luther’s Works (American Edition), the entries in the index for election and predestination are as follows:

Election—2:72f, 3:169, 4:132, 342, 356, 9:84, 20:88, 24:263, 25:80–83, 85, 96f, 374–378, 386–389, 423f, 26:260, 30:158f, 33:11n, see also Predestination

Predestination—2:50, 104, 3:171, 4:143, 320, 5:42, 44–50, 173, 178, 6:105, 149, 2:308, 321, 15:1f, 121, 16:55n, 75, 17:118, 18:75, 22:368, 23:256, 259, 24:62, 70, 25:145, 163f, 371, 373f, , 25:197, 25:296, 25:4, 44, 75f, 79–81, 145, 147f, 164, 296, 371–376, 387, 389–392, 25:44, 75f, 80–82, 386–389, 26:72, 27:190, 255, 294, 29:214, 30:6, 158, 31:11, 33:41, 149, 272, 35:378, 42:102f, 105f, 108–111, 157, 43:231f, 235f, 48:187n, 291n, 52:243, 54:87, 90f, 249, 385

Joel W. Lundeen, vol. 55, Luther's Works, Vol. 55 : Index, ed. Jaroslav Jan Pelikan, Hilton C. Oswald and Helmut T. Lehmann, Luther's Works (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1999, c1986).

This is what you find on Christ’s cross and His death and resurrection:

His cross 1:195, 260, 3:359, 4:192, 5:45, 185, 202, 220, 315, 347, 11:101f, 141f, 150, 249, 256f, 522, 13:319, 333, 344, 14:305, 309, 21:327, 25:149, 288–291, 28:230, 29:146, 31:53, 85, 90, 35:63, 230, 266, 378, 380f, 37:xviiif, 32, 35, 53, 61, 72, 83, 85, 102, 113, 123f, 129n, 131n, 136, 177, 179, 191–193, 265f, 275, 328, 330, 333, 361n, 38:xi, 19, 66, 95, 118, 187, 47:52, 112n, 48:61n, 255, 307, 387, 49:73, 249, 263, 329, 355, 51:31, 198, 208
His crucifixion 7:91, 11:102, 16:43f, 190, 337, 20:140, 328f, 23:135, 176, 206n, 254, 378, 384, 24:35, 86, 402, 26:165, 41:11f, 101f, 112–114, 116, 122, 127, 153, 232, 246, 256, 356, 42:6, 11f, 15, 65, 104–107, 108n, 109, 129, 137, 140f, 143–145, 149f, 163
His death 2:153, 215, 269, 370, 3:141, 124, 214, 9:97, 141, 197, 10:71f, 355, 364, 14:21, 321, 23:144, 161, 182, 325, 328, 330, 332, 352, 357, 360, 374f, 24:15, 34f, 40, 42, 85f, 110, 135, 140, 179, 191, 195, 211, 222, 246, 258, 260f, 271, 289, 292, 296, 309, 319, 326f, 334, 343, 348f, 375f, 379, 381, 402, 26:140, 183–185, 224, 292, 295, 301, 303, 357, 369, 385, 398, 453, 460, 35:xi, 196f, 305, 317, 374, 52:156, 279f
His death and resurrection 25:15, 45, 50–52, 70, 89f, 146f, 284, 406, 517, 25:45, 27:10, 15, 19, 26, 49f, 76, 82f, 167f, 194, 264f, 401n, 45:217, 219, 227

Joel W. Lundeen, vol. 55, Luther's Works, Vol. 55 : Index, ed. Jaroslav Jan Pelikan, Hilton C. Oswald and Helmut T. Lehmann, Luther's Works (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1999, c1986).

I am BARELY scratching the surface on Christ with Luther. One can clearly see the emphasis of Luther. The entry for the grace of God to fallen mankind is similar. As is justification and the Gospel. The entries for good works is considerably longer than election and predestination combined.

BTW, Luther’s Rose and Lotar have done a fine job quoting from the Book of Concord and Christian Dogmatics (I want the electronic version!!!) to give a clear statement of the Lutheran position.

Lotar · Feb 9, 2004

Breetai said:
As usual, Lotar is saying everything for me. THANKS LOTAR!!!!!

Dude, did you just kiss me?!?

Lotar · Feb 9, 2004

Luthers Rose said:
Its a good thing Lutherans don't believe in reincarnation because with your eloquence we might be tempted to believe Lotar was the reincarnated Luther!

Peace

Rose

You mean I'm not the reincarnation of Luther?

Reformationist · Feb 9, 2004

Thanks to everyone for their input in this thread. While I disagree with Lutherans on a few things it sure is comforting to not have to argue every aspect of my beliefs.

God bless

Apologetic · Feb 9, 2004

Is it possible that God may know who is going to hell and heaven because He knows who will believe in Jesus Christ, without DECIDING it for them?

I mean - I can know that my guinea pig is hungry, without deciding that she's gonna be hungry. You know what I mean?

Lutherans, could you please help me with this?

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