• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Lutherans, could you please help me with this?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Bulldog

Don't Tread on Me
Jan 19, 2004
7,125
176
22 Acacia Avenue
✟8,212.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
US-Libertarian
I was visiting the LCMS site and took a look on their view on predestination. They believe that God predestined some to salvation, and those who are condemned to Hell are condemned becuase of thier disbelief in Christ.

How does this make sense? If God predestined some to salvation, then wouldn't that by default mean that some were predestined to Hell?
 

JVAC

Baptized into His name
Nov 28, 2003
1,787
81
40
Fresno, CA
✟2,369.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Technically all man is predestined to hell, because of the fall of Adam. We are all born into sin and are children of wrath. We are unable to do good. Yet when we recognize this and make the choice for Christ, he sends to us the Holy Spirit, by which we can do good. This election process is a complicated one indeed. (Some go as far to say as, you can't choose Christ without God's Holy Spirit, but that is questionable)

Luther expounds his view in the "Bondage of the Will", and I am not sure on the 'official church opinion' LCMS/ELCA/WELS/what have you. However, upon the subject the believer is given quite a bit of leeway to believe how much will is ours and how much is God's. I like this approach far better than the churches that are say this is absolute.

So to answer your question, God gives His Holy Spirit to whom He pleases, this enables people to live righteous lives in Christ, all others stay in thier own sin and carnal mind.
 
Upvote 0

Lotar

Swift Eagle Justice
Feb 27, 2003
8,163
445
45
Southern California
✟34,644.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
It's a somewhat complicated doctrine, in a lot of ways it doesn't quite make sense to us, but it is what the bible teaches. God loves everyone and wishes that none would be lost. Those who are saved are saved solely by the work of God, and those who are lost are lost solely because of their sin and the hardness of their own hearts.

The way of looking at it is that there are not two sides of the coin. The bible teaches both predestination and free will, but when we try to explain it according to human reason, we often end up denying one or the other.
 
Upvote 0

InquisitorKind

Well-Known Member
Oct 15, 2003
1,333
54
Visit site
✟1,780.00
Faith
Protestant
Lotar said:
The bible teaches both predestination and free will, but when we try to explain it according to human reason, we often end up denying one or the other.
I'm not trying to start an argument, so I hope that no one else follows up your response to this question:

Which passages in particular do you think highlight man's freewill?

~Matt
 
Upvote 0

ByzantineDixie

Handmaid of God, Mary
Jan 11, 2004
3,178
144
Visit site
✟26,649.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
With Lutherans it is a one-sided free will, of sorts...we can reject Christ's free gift of salvation by grace through faith, but we can not accept it. That may not make much sense because as humans we like to see some kind of logical balance in things (if we can reject then the contrary or balanced result is we can accept) but God doesn't have to work within the confines of human logic. I have attached a couple of sections from Mueller's Christian Dogmatics to show how this principle is applied to the Doctrine of Election.


And this section emphasizing the point that we can not probe the hidden aspects of God...


In the grand scheme of things from what I can see Lutherans find there are bigger fish to fry theologically speaking--sin, repentance, grace, faith. It is only after these are well understood that the Doctrine of Election can even begin to make sense. I would love to type more but I am already late getting ready for church!

Peace

Rose
 
Upvote 0

Reformationist

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam
Mar 7, 2002
14,273
465
52
✟44,595.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
JVAC said:
Yet when we recognize this and make the choice for Christ, he sends to us the Holy Spirit, by which we can do good.

I'm a little confused. Is this what the Lutheran church teaches? Do you believe that we "make the choice for Christ" and THEN we receive the Holy Spirit?

This election process is a complicated one indeed. (Some go as far to say as, you can't choose Christ without God's Holy Spirit, but that is questionable)

Are you Lutheran? The Bible is very clear that we are incapable of coming to Christ without the divine intervention of God. Even you said, "We are unable to do good." I would think that doing "good" would include coming to Christ. Luther was adamant about man's need to be regenerated and indwelt by the Holy Spirit prior to his recognition of his sinfulness and his making the choice for Christ.

However, upon the subject the believer is given quite a bit of leeway to believe how much will is ours and how much is God's. I like this approach far better than the churches that are say this is absolute.

I'm am now officially confused. How can you call yourself Lutheran and believe something completely contrary to what Luther taught? Luther wasn't known for his tact. He was quite clear on man's utter inability to embrace God prior to regeneration. Don't you believe that or am I wrong in assuming you are Lutheran?

So to answer your question, God gives His Holy Spirit to whom He pleases, this enables people to live righteous lives in Christ, all others stay in thier own sin and carnal mind.

Now this I agree with but it seems to be contradictory to your earlier statement that when man recognizes that he is born in sin, is a child of wrath, and is unable to do good then God sends us His Holy Spirit.

Have I just misunderstood you?

God bless
 
Upvote 0

Reformationist

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam
Mar 7, 2002
14,273
465
52
✟44,595.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Lotar said:
God loves everyone and wishes that none would be lost.

What in the world is going on here? This isn't what Luther taught? Aren't you guys Lutheran? I'm not even Lutheran and I know that Luther never taught that God loves everyone and wishes that none would be lost, at least not in the universal sense.

Lotar, is this what you truly believe?

God bless
 
Upvote 0

BBAS 64

Contributor
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
10,051
1,802
60
New England
✟618,580.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Good day, All


I must say in reading over this thread as it relates to Luther I am some what confused. I have not read much that Luther wrote, but am a big fan of what I have read about his writings. Done some reading in his debates with Erasmus reguarding "Free will and Salvation" and some of what I see here is bother some to me even though I am not a Lutheran.

I would like to review a Piece of that work:

Erasmus: Whom will try to reform his life?
Luther: Nobody!
E: Who will beleive God loves him?
L: Nobody! Nonbody can! But the elect shall believe it: and the rest shall perish without believing it, raging and blasphing.
E: A flood gate of iniquity is opened by our doctrines.
L: So be it!

Good 1000 ft level review: http://www.prca.org/prtj/nov95b.html


BBAS
 
Upvote 0

Lotar

Swift Eagle Justice
Feb 27, 2003
8,163
445
45
Southern California
✟34,644.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
JVAC has confused his doctrine


http://www.bookofconcord.org/fc-ep.html
 
Upvote 0

ByzantineDixie

Handmaid of God, Mary
Jan 11, 2004
3,178
144
Visit site
✟26,649.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married

Great, great stuff!!! I realize after reading the article on Erasmus v. Luther that any form of "free will", partial or otherwise is an inappropriate expression. What suggestions would you have to reflect this aspect? Even rejection isn't the precise way of putting it.


Ah man, and to think if I had different beliefs I could wallow in my hedonistic tendencies (I am a ESFP) just waiting for my call to glory. RATS, why did I marry a Lutheran!!!

Peace,

Rose
 
Upvote 0

BBAS 64

Contributor
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
10,051
1,802
60
New England
✟618,580.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married

Not sure what expression I would use for this instance much thought needed.

Ah man, and to think if I had different beliefs I could wallow in my hedonistic tendencies (I am a ESFP) just waiting for my call to glory. RATS, why did I marry a Lutheran!!!

Peace,

Rose
LOL,

Because he Loves you and he is good looking!

Peace to u,

BBAS
 
Upvote 0

Reformationist

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam
Mar 7, 2002
14,273
465
52
✟44,595.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Pure Paradox said:
No... ::frowns:: Never heard anything about predestination... and I was confirmed in the Lutheran church just last June...


:o Have you gone to church there for sermons and Bible study?

/me wonders how a person can be Lutheran and not have heard of predestination...

Predestination is one of the MAJOR themes of Luther's beliefs.

God bless
 
Upvote 0

BBAS 64

Contributor
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
10,051
1,802
60
New England
✟618,580.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Pure Paradox said:
No... ::frowns:: Never heard anything about predestination... and I was confirmed in the Lutheran church just last June...
come on this is a biggie from a Lutheran POV. How long did you attend this church? I know in some cases there are classes held on the Doctine of the Lutheran Faith. Lotar Can Help!

BBAS
 
Upvote 0

Phoebe

TwoBrickShyOfAFullLoad
Aug 22, 2002
3,793
76
Iowa
Visit site
✟27,024.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Is predestination a major issue in the LCMS?

I actually don't remember hearing much about it in the ELCA. (which is why I haven't responded as yet about predestination)

Luther does speak of it in "Bondage of the Will" though. I'll read up on it a bit more.
 
Upvote 0

Lotar

Swift Eagle Justice
Feb 27, 2003
8,163
445
45
Southern California
✟34,644.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Some churches just don't go very deep into these issues during confirmation, but it's a pretty major issue in all the Lutheran churches. The LCMS and ECLA have the same view on this subject. Phoebe, there's a section on the ECLA website on Predestination.
 
Upvote 0

Phoebe

TwoBrickShyOfAFullLoad
Aug 22, 2002
3,793
76
Iowa
Visit site
✟27,024.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
That's the other place I was gonna look.
Thanks!
 
Upvote 0

theseed

Contributor
Site Supporter
Dec 25, 2003
6,026
132
Clarksville, TN
Visit site
✟75,788.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I asked the a simular question a while back.

http://www.christianforums.com/t83264
 
Upvote 0

ByzantineDixie

Handmaid of God, Mary
Jan 11, 2004
3,178
144
Visit site
✟26,649.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Predestination may have been one of Luther's big interests but it is not a predominant issue of discussion in today's Lutheran church. I just finished a college level Lutheran doctrine class and the take home was:

1) The Doctrine of Eternal Election is to be a comfort for believers only...nothing more, nothing less. (not a cause for dispair, not a reason to cease horizontal works of righteousness)

2) There is no reason to ask about those not elected. It is an inappropriate question that attempts to probe the hidden God...(see Mueller reference earlier)

When you think about it...in light of these two particular take home messages the doctrine of election is a secondary issue. Even Mueller writes that it is NOT a central article of faith. From the way it is handled it ranks right behind Eschatology as one of the lesser discussed doctrines.

I think it was a bigger issue for Luther because he had to wrestle with it. At one point in his life it tormented him. He saw it as a cause for dispair. He did the wrestlin' and today we do not have to. If viewed as Luther suggests...added assurance of one's salvation...the importance of the doctrine is indeed on a different level than the doctrines of God, Scripture, Man, Soteriology, Saving Faith, etc.

Why is it such a big issue in other denoms?

Peace

Rose
 
Reactions: JVAC
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.