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Lutherans, could you please help me with this?

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Bulldog

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I was visiting the LCMS site and took a look on their view on predestination. They believe that God predestined some to salvation, and those who are condemned to Hell are condemned becuase of thier disbelief in Christ.

How does this make sense? If God predestined some to salvation, then wouldn't that by default mean that some were predestined to Hell?
 

JVAC

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Technically all man is predestined to hell, because of the fall of Adam. We are all born into sin and are children of wrath. We are unable to do good. Yet when we recognize this and make the choice for Christ, he sends to us the Holy Spirit, by which we can do good. This election process is a complicated one indeed. (Some go as far to say as, you can't choose Christ without God's Holy Spirit, but that is questionable)

Luther expounds his view in the "Bondage of the Will", and I am not sure on the 'official church opinion' LCMS/ELCA/WELS/what have you. However, upon the subject the believer is given quite a bit of leeway to believe how much will is ours and how much is God's. I like this approach far better than the churches that are say this is absolute.

So to answer your question, God gives His Holy Spirit to whom He pleases, this enables people to live righteous lives in Christ, all others stay in thier own sin and carnal mind.
 
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Lotar

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It's a somewhat complicated doctrine, in a lot of ways it doesn't quite make sense to us, but it is what the bible teaches. God loves everyone and wishes that none would be lost. Those who are saved are saved solely by the work of God, and those who are lost are lost solely because of their sin and the hardness of their own hearts.

The way of looking at it is that there are not two sides of the coin. The bible teaches both predestination and free will, but when we try to explain it according to human reason, we often end up denying one or the other.
 
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InquisitorKind

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Lotar said:
The bible teaches both predestination and free will, but when we try to explain it according to human reason, we often end up denying one or the other.
I'm not trying to start an argument, so I hope that no one else follows up your response to this question:

Which passages in particular do you think highlight man's freewill?

~Matt
 
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ByzantineDixie

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With Lutherans it is a one-sided free will, of sorts...we can reject Christ's free gift of salvation by grace through faith, but we can not accept it. That may not make much sense because as humans we like to see some kind of logical balance in things (if we can reject then the contrary or balanced result is we can accept) but God doesn't have to work within the confines of human logic. I have attached a couple of sections from Mueller's Christian Dogmatics to show how this principle is applied to the Doctrine of Election.

While the doctrine of God’s eternal election in Christ Jesus is therefore a most earnest warning addressed to Christians inasmuch as their flesh inclines to self-righteousness, it is a warning also, addressed to their secure and indifferent hearts, not to despise the means of grace, through which God’s grace in Christ Jesus is offered and conveyed to all sinners (Matt. 22:1–14: “And they would not come”).

On this point the Formula of Concord writes very correctly (Thor. Decl., XI, 51): “From this article also powerful admonitions and warnings are derived, as Luke 7:30: ‘They rejected the counsel of God against themselves’; Luke 14:24: ‘I say unto you that none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper’; Matt. 20:16: ‘Many be called, but few chosen’; also Luke 8:8, 18: ‘He that hath ears to hear, let him hear,’ and: ‘Take heed how ye hear.’ ”

Mueller, John Theodore, Christian Dogmatics (Mueller), (St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House) 1999, c1934.

And this section emphasizing the point that we can not probe the hidden aspects of God...

Just that is what the Formula of Concord means when it writes (Epit., XI, 7): “But the Word of God leads us to Christ, who is the Book of Life, in whom all are written and elected that are to be saved in eternity.” As long as believers so view their election in Christ Jesus, it will be to them a cause of great joy and a source of true comfort.

On the other hand, if Christians view their election from reason (ex rationis nostrae sententia; ex ulla aliqua externa specie) or from the inscrutable hidden will of God (ex arcano consilio Dei), they will be misled either into despair or into an epicurean life. Of this the Formula of Concord writes (Epit., XI, 9): “Therefore we should judge concerning this our election to eternal life neither from reason nor from the Law of God, which lead us either into a reckless, dissolute, epicurean life or into despair and excite pernicious thoughts in the hearts of men; for they cannot, as long as they follow their reason, successfully refrain from thinking: If God has elected me to salvation, I cannot be condemned, no matter what I do; and again: If I am not elected to eternal life, it is of no avail what good I do; it is all … in vain anyway.”
While the Formula of Concord condemns the way of judging election from reason, it condemns also what it calls the “sounding of the abyss of God’s hidden predestination” (Thor. Decl., XI, 33). Christians attempt to sound the abyss of God’s hidden predestination when they ask the very irrelevant question: “If God has elected me to salvation, or if He has elected a few, why did He not elect all?” (Cur alii Frae aliis, cur alii, alii non?) The same irrelevant question was put to Christ by His disciples when one of them asked: “Lord, are there few that be saved ?” That this query was one of the many unbecoming questions which even believers sometimes put in their folly and ignorance, Acts 1:6, 7, Christ showed by answering the inquisitive disciple: “Strive to enter in at the strait gate; for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in and shall not be able,” Luke 13:23, 24.

To understand this reproof of Christ, we must remember that the proper scope of Scripture is the salvation of sinners. It therefore confines its instruction to what is needful for men to know in order that they may be saved, John 5:39; 2 Tim. 3:15. Questions which serve only to satisfy their curious reason, Christians should avoid as conflicting with God’s sovereign majesty and their own salvation, Rom. 9:19, 20; 11:33–36; 2 Tim. 2:15. 16; 1 Tim. 6:3–5.

Mueller, John Theodore, Christian Dogmatics (Mueller), (St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House) 1999, c1934.

In the grand scheme of things from what I can see Lutherans find there are bigger fish to fry theologically speaking--sin, repentance, grace, faith. It is only after these are well understood that the Doctrine of Election can even begin to make sense. I would love to type more but I am already late getting ready for church!

Peace

Rose
 
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Reformationist

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JVAC said:
Yet when we recognize this and make the choice for Christ, he sends to us the Holy Spirit, by which we can do good.

I'm a little confused. Is this what the Lutheran church teaches? Do you believe that we "make the choice for Christ" and THEN we receive the Holy Spirit?

This election process is a complicated one indeed. (Some go as far to say as, you can't choose Christ without God's Holy Spirit, but that is questionable)

Are you Lutheran? The Bible is very clear that we are incapable of coming to Christ without the divine intervention of God. Even you said, "We are unable to do good." I would think that doing "good" would include coming to Christ. Luther was adamant about man's need to be regenerated and indwelt by the Holy Spirit prior to his recognition of his sinfulness and his making the choice for Christ.

However, upon the subject the believer is given quite a bit of leeway to believe how much will is ours and how much is God's. I like this approach far better than the churches that are say this is absolute.

I'm am now officially confused. How can you call yourself Lutheran and believe something completely contrary to what Luther taught? Luther wasn't known for his tact. He was quite clear on man's utter inability to embrace God prior to regeneration. Don't you believe that or am I wrong in assuming you are Lutheran?

So to answer your question, God gives His Holy Spirit to whom He pleases, this enables people to live righteous lives in Christ, all others stay in thier own sin and carnal mind.

Now this I agree with but it seems to be contradictory to your earlier statement that when man recognizes that he is born in sin, is a child of wrath, and is unable to do good then God sends us His Holy Spirit.

Have I just misunderstood you?

God bless
 
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Reformationist

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Lotar said:
God loves everyone and wishes that none would be lost.

What in the world is going on here? This isn't what Luther taught? Aren't you guys Lutheran? I'm not even Lutheran and I know that Luther never taught that God loves everyone and wishes that none would be lost, at least not in the universal sense.

Lotar, is this what you truly believe? :scratch:

God bless
 
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BBAS 64

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Good day, All


I must say in reading over this thread as it relates to Luther I am some what confused. I have not read much that Luther wrote, but am a big fan of what I have read about his writings. Done some reading in his debates with Erasmus reguarding "Free will and Salvation" and some of what I see here is bother some to me even though I am not a Lutheran.

I would like to review a Piece of that work:

Erasmus: Whom will try to reform his life?
Luther: Nobody!
E: Who will beleive God loves him?
L: Nobody! Nonbody can! But the elect shall believe it: and the rest shall perish without believing it, raging and blasphing.
E: A flood gate of iniquity is opened by our doctrines.
L: So be it!

Good 1000 ft level review: http://www.prca.org/prtj/nov95b.html


BBAS
 
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Lotar

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JVAC has confused his doctrine ;)


[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]II. Free Will.[/size] [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]STATUS CONTROVERSIAE. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Principal Question in This Controversy. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1] Since the will of man is found in four unlike states, namely: 1. before the Fall; 2. since the Fall; 3. after regeneration; 4. after the resurrection of the body, the chief question is only concerning the will and ability of man in the second state, namely, what powers in spiritual things he has of himself after the fall of our first parents and before regeneration, and whether he is able by his own powers, prior to and before his regeneration by God's Spirit, to dispose and prepare himself for God's grace, and to accept [and apprehend], or not, the grace offered through the Holy Ghost in the Word and holy [divinely instituted] Sacraments. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Affirmative Theses. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Pure Doctrine concerning This Article, according to God's Word. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]2] 1. Concerning this subject, our doctrine, faith, and confession is, that in spiritual things the understanding and reason of man are [altogether] blind, and by their own powers understand nothing, as it is written 1 Cor. 2, 14: The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them when he is examined concerning spiritual things. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]3] 2. Likewise we believe, teach, and confess that the unregenerate will of man is not only turned away from God, but also has become an enemy of God, so that it only has an inclination and desire for that which is evil and contrary to God, as it is written Gen. 8, 21: The imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth. Also Rom. 8, 7: The carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither, indeed, can be. Yea, as little as a dead body can quicken itself to bodily, earthly life, so little can man, who by sin is spiritually dead, raise himself to spiritual life, as it is written Eph. 2, 5: Even when we were dead in sins, He hath quickened us together with Christ; 2 Cor. 3, 5: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think anything good as of ourselves, but that we are sufficient is of God. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]4] 3. God the Holy Ghost, however, does not effect conversion without means, but uses for this purpose the preaching and hearing of God's Word, as it is written Rom. 1, 16: The Gospel is the power of God 5] unto salvation to every one that believeth. Also Rom. 10, 17: Faith cometh by hearing of the Word of God. And it is God's will that His Word should be heard, and that man's ears should not be closed. Ps. 95, 8. With this Word the Holy Ghost is present, and opens hearts, so that they, as Lydia in Acts 16, 14, are attentive to it, and are thus converted alone through the grace and power of the Holy Ghost, whose 6] work alone the conversion of man is. For without His grace, and if He do not grant the increase, our willing and running, our planting, sowing, and watering, all are nothing, as Christ says John 15, 5: Without Me ye can do nothing. With these brief words He denies to the free will its powers, and ascribes everything to God's grace, in order that no one may boast before God. 1 Cor. 1, 29; 2 Cor. 12, 5; Jer. 9, 23. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Negative Theses. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Contrary False Doctrine. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]7] Accordingly, we reject and condemn all the following errors as contrary to the standard of God's Word: [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]8] 1. The delirium [insane dogma] of philosophers who are called Stoics, as also of the Manicheans, who taught that everything that happens must so happen, and cannot happen otherwise, and that everything that man does, even in outward things, he does by compulsion, and that he is coerced to evil works and deeds, as inchastity, robbery, murder, theft, and the like. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]9] 2. We reject also the error of the gross Pelagians, who taught that man by his own powers, without the grace of the Holy Ghost, can turn himself to God, believe the Gospel, be obedient from the heart to God's Law, and thus merit the forgiveness of sins and eternal life. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]10] 3. We reject also the error of the Semi-Pelagians, who teach that man by his own powers can make a beginning of his conversion, but without the grace of the Holy Ghost cannot complete it. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]11] 4. Also, when it is taught that, although man by his free will before regeneration is too weak to make a beginning, and by his own powers to turn himself to God, and from the heart to be obedient to God, yet, if the Holy Ghost by the preaching of the Word has made a beginning, and therein offered His grace, then the will of man from its own natural powers can add something, though little and feebly, to this end, can help and cooperate, qualify and prepare itself for grace, and embrace and accept it, and believe the Gospel. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]12] 5. Also, that man, after he has been born again, can perfectly observe and completely fulfil God's Law, and that this fulfilling is our righteousness before God, by which we merit eternal life. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]13] 6. Also, we reject and condemn the error of the Enthusiasts, who imagine that God without means, without the hearing of God's Word, also without the use of the holy Sacraments, draws men to Himself, and enlightens, justifies, and saves them. (Enthusiasts we call those who expect the heavenly illumination of the Spirit [celestial revelations] without the preaching of God's Word.) [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]14] 7. Also, that in conversion and regeneration God entirely exterminates the substance and essence of the old Adam, and especially the rational soul, and in conversion and regeneration creates a new essence of the soul out of nothing. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]15] 8. Also, when the following expressions are employed without explanation, namely, that the will of man before, in, and after conversion resists the Holy Ghost, and that the Holy Ghost is given to those who resist Him intentionally and persistently; for, as Augustine says, in conversion God makes willing persons out of the unwilling and dwells in the willing. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]16] As to the expressions of ancient and modern teachers of the Church, when it is said: Deus trahit, sed volentem trahit, i. e., God draws, but He draws the willing; likewise, Hominis voluntas in conversione non est otiosa, sed agit aliquid, i. e., In conversion the will of man is not idle, but also effects something, we maintain that, inasmuch as these expressions have been introduced for confirming [the false opinion concerning] the powers of the natural free will in man's conversion, against the doctrine of God's grace, they do not conform to the form of sound doctrine, and therefore, when we speak of conversion to God, justly ought to be avoided. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]17] But, on the other hand, it is correctly said that in conversion God, through the drawing of the Holy Ghost, makes out of stubborn and unwilling men willing ones, and that after such conversion in the daily exercise of repentance the regenerate will of man is not idle, but also cooperates in all the works of the Holy Ghost, which He performs through us. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]18] 9. Also what Dr. Luther has written, namely, that man's will in his conversion is pure passive, that is, that it does nothing whatever, is to be understood respectu divinae gratiae in accendendis novis motibus, that is, when God's Spirit, through the Word heard or the use of the holy Sacraments, lays hold upon man's will, and works [in man] the new birth and conversion. For when [after] the Holy Ghost has wrought and accomplished this, and man's will has been changed and renewed by His divine power and working alone, then the new will of man is an instrument and organ of God the Holy Ghost, so that he not only accepts grace, but also cooperates with the Holy Ghost in the works which follow. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]19] Therefore, before the conversion of man there are only two efficient causes, namely, the Holy Ghost and the Word of God, as the instrument of the Holy Ghost, by which He works conversion. This Word man is [indeed] to hear; however, it is not by his own powers, but only through the grace and working of the Holy Ghost that he can yield faith to it and accept it. [/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]XI. Election.[/size] [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1] Concerning this article no public dissension has occurred among the theologians of the Augsburg Confession. But since it is a consolatory article, if treated properly, and lest offensive disputations concerning the same be instituted in the future, it is also explained in this writing. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Affirmative Theses.
The Pure and True Doctrine concerning This Article. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]2] 1. To begin with [First of all], the distinction between praescientia et praedestinatio, that is, between God's foreknowledge and His eternal election, ought to be accurately observed. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]3] 2. For the foreknowledge of God is nothing else than that God knows all things before they happen, as it is written Dan. 2, 28: There is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]4] 3. This foreknowledge extends alike over the godly and the wicked, but it is not the cause of evil, neither of sin, namely, of doing what is wrong (which originally arises from the devil and the wicked, perverse will of man), nor of their ruin [that men perish], for which they themselves are responsible [which they must ascribe to themselves]; but it only regulates it, and fixes a limit to it [how far it should progress and] how long it should last, and all this to the end that it should serve His elect for their salvation, notwithstanding that it is evil in itself. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]5] 4. The predestination or eternal election of God, however, extends only over the godly, beloved children of God, being a cause of their salvation, which He also provides, as well as disposes what belongs thereto. Upon this [predestination of God] our salvation is founded so firmly that the gates of hell cannot overcome it. John 10, 28; Matt. 16, 18. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]6] 5. This [predestination of God] is not to be investigated in the secret counsel of God, but to be sought in the Word of God, where it is also revealed. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]7] 6. But the Word of God leads us to Christ, who is the Book of Life, in whom all are written and elected that are to be saved in eternity, as it is written Eph. 1, 4: He hath chosen us in Him [Christ] before the foundation of the world. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]8] 7. This Christ calls to Himself all sinners and promises them rest, and He is in earnest [seriously wills] that all men should come to Him and suffer themselves to be helped, to whom He offers Himself in His Word, and wishes them to hear it and not to stop their ears or [neglect and] despise the Word. Moreover, He promises the power and working of the Holy Ghost, and divine assistance for perseverance and eternal salvation [that we may remain steadfast in the faith and attain eternal salvation]. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]9] 8. Therefore we should judge concerning this our election to eternal life neither from reason nor from the Law of God, which lead us either into a reckless, dissolute, Epicurean life or into despair, and excite pernicious thoughts in the hearts of men, for they cannot, as long as they follow their reason, successfully refrain from thinking: If God has elected me to salvation, I cannot be condemned, no matter what I do; and again: If I am not elected to eternal life, it is of no avail what good I do; it is all [all my efforts are] in vain anyway. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]10] 9. But it [the true judgment concerning predestination] must be learned alone from the holy Gospel concerning Christ, in which it is clearly testified that God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all, and that He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance and believe in the Lord Christ. Rom. 11, 32; Ezek. 18, 23; 33, 11; 2 Pet. 3, 9; 1 John 2, 2. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]11] 10. Whoever, now, is thus concerned about the revealed will of God, and proceeds according to the order which St. Paul has observed in the Epistle to the Romans, who first directs men to repentance, to knowledge of sins, to faith in Christ, to divine obedience, before he speaks of the mystery of the eternal election of God, to him this doctrine [concerning God's predestination] is useful and consolatory. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]12] 11. However, that many are called and few chosen, Matt. 22, 14, does not mean that God is not willing to save everybody; but the reason is that they either do not at all hear God's Word, but wilfully despise it, stop their ears and harden their hearts, and in this manner foreclose the ordinary way to the Holy Ghost, so that He cannot perform His work in them, or, when they have heard it, make light of it again and do not heed it, for which [that they perish] not God or His election, but their wickedness, is responsible. [2 Pet. 2, 1ff ; Luke 11, 49. 52; Heb. 12, 25f.] [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]13] 12. Thus far a Christian should occupy himself [in meditation] with the article concerning the eternal election of God, as it has been revealed in God's Word, which presents to us Christ as the Book of Life, which He opens and reveals to us by the preaching of the holy Gospel, as it is written Rom. 8, 30: Whom He did predestinate, them He also called. In Him we are to seek the eternal election of the Father, who has determined in His eternal divine counsel that He would save no one except those who know His Son Christ and truly believe on Him. Other thoughts are to be [entirely] banished [from the minds of the godly], as they proceed not from God, but from the suggestion of the Evil Foe, whereby he attempts to weaken or entirely to remove from us the glorious consolation which we have in this salutary doctrine, namely, that we know [assuredly] that out of pure grace, without any merit of our own, we have been elected in Christ to eternal life, and that no one can pluck us out of His hand; as He has not only promised this gracious election with mere words, but has also certified it with an oath and sealed it with the holy Sacraments, which we can [ought to] call to mind in our most severe temptations, and take comfort in them, and therewith quench the fiery darts of the devil. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]14] 13. Besides, we should use the greatest diligence to live according to the will of God, and, as St. Peter admonishes, 2 Pet. 1, 10, make our calling sure, and especially adhere to [not recede a finger's breadth from] the revealed Word: that can and will not fail us. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]15] 14. By this brief explanation of the eternal election of God His glory is entirely and fully given to God, that out of pure mercy alone, without all merit of ours, He saves us according to the purpose of His will; besides, also, no cause is given any one for despondency or a vulgar, wild life [no opportunity is afforded either for those more severe agitations of mind and faintheartedness or for Epicureanism]. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Negative Theses
False Doctrine concerning This Article. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]16] Accordingly, we believe and hold: When any teach the doctrine concerning the gracious election of God to eternal life in such a manner that troubled Christians cannot comfort themselves therewith, but are thereby led to despondency or despair, or the impenitent are strengthened in their wantonness, that such doctrine is treated [wickedly and erroneously] not according to the Word and will of God, but according to reason and the instigation of the cursed Satan. For, as the apostle testifies, Rom. 15, 4, whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we, through patience and comfort of the Scriptures, might have hope. Therefore we reject the following errors: [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]17] 1. As when it is taught that God is unwilling that all men repent and believe the Gospel. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]18] 2. Also, that when God calls us to Himself, He is not in earnest that all men should come to Him. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]19] 3. Also, that God is unwilling that every one should be saved, but that some, without regard to their sins, from the mere counsel, purpose, and will of God, are ordained to condemnation so that they cannot be saved. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]20] 4. Also, that not only the mercy of God and the most holy merit of Christ, but also in us there is a cause of God's election, on account of which God has elected us to everlasting life. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]21] All these are blasphemous and dreadful erroneous doctrines, whereby all the comfort which they have in the holy Gospel and the use of the holy Sacraments is taken from Christians, and therefore should not be tolerated in the Church of God. [/font]



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[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]22] This is the brief and simple explanation of the controverted articles, which for a time have been debated and taught controversially among the theologians of the Augsburg Confession. Hence every simple Christian, according to the guidance of God's Word and his simple Catechism, can perceive what is right or wrong, since not only the pure doctrine has been stated, but also the erroneous contrary doctrine has been repudiated and rejected, and thus the offensive divisions that have occurred are thoroughly settled [and decided]. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]23] May Almighty God and the Father of our Lord Jesus grant the grace of His Holy Ghost that we all may be one in Him, and constantly abide in this Christian unity, which is well pleasing to Him! Amen.
[/font]
http://www.bookofconcord.org/fc-ep.html
 
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ByzantineDixie

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11. However, that many are called and few chosen, Matt. 22, 14, does not mean that God is not willing to save everybody; but the reason is that they either do not at all hear God's Word, but wilfully despise it, stop their ears and harden their hearts, and in this manner foreclose the ordinary way to the Holy Ghost, so that He cannot perform His work in them, or, when they have heard it, make light of it again and do not heed it, for which [that they perish] not God or His election, but their wickedness, is responsible. [2 Pet. 2, 1ff ; Luke 11, 49. 52; Heb. 12, 25f.]

Great, great stuff!!! I realize after reading the article on Erasmus v. Luther that any form of "free will", partial or otherwise is an inappropriate expression. What suggestions would you have to reflect this aspect? Even rejection isn't the precise way of putting it.

14. By this brief explanation of the eternal election of God His glory is entirely and fully given to God, that out of pure mercy alone, without all merit of ours, He saves us according to the purpose of His will; besides, also, no cause is given any one for despondency or a vulgar, wild life [no opportunity is afforded either for those more severe agitations of mind and faintheartedness or for Epicureanism].

Ah man, and to think if I had different beliefs I could wallow in my hedonistic tendencies (I am a ESFP) just waiting for my call to glory. :D RATS, why did I marry a Lutheran!!! ;)

Peace,

Rose
 
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BBAS 64

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Luthers Rose said:


Great, great stuff!!! I realize after reading the article on Erasmus v. Luther that any form of "free will", partial or otherwise is an inappropriate expression. What suggestions would you have to reflect this aspect? Even rejection isn't the precise way of putting it.

Not sure what expression I would use for this instance much thought needed.

Ah man, and to think if I had different beliefs I could wallow in my hedonistic tendencies (I am a ESFP) just waiting for my call to glory. :D RATS, why did I marry a Lutheran!!! ;)

Peace,

Rose
LOL, :D

Because he Loves you and he is good looking! ;)

Peace to u,

BBAS
 
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Reformationist

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Pure Paradox said:
No... ::frowns:: Never heard anything about predestination... and I was confirmed in the Lutheran church just last June...


:eek: :scratch: :confused: :o Have you gone to church there for sermons and Bible study?

/me wonders how a person can be Lutheran and not have heard of predestination... :scratch:

Predestination is one of the MAJOR themes of Luther's beliefs.

God bless
 
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BBAS 64

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Pure Paradox said:
No... ::frowns:: Never heard anything about predestination... and I was confirmed in the Lutheran church just last June...
:eek: come on this is a biggie from a Lutheran POV. How long did you attend this church? I know in some cases there are classes held on the Doctine of the Lutheran Faith. Lotar Can Help!:)

BBAS
 
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Phoebe

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Is predestination a major issue in the LCMS?

I actually don't remember hearing much about it in the ELCA. (which is why I haven't responded as yet about predestination)

Luther does speak of it in "Bondage of the Will" though. I'll read up on it a bit more.
 
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Lotar

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Some churches just don't go very deep into these issues during confirmation, but it's a pretty major issue in all the Lutheran churches. The LCMS and ECLA have the same view on this subject. Phoebe, there's a section on the ECLA website on Predestination.
 
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Phoebe

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Lotar said:
Some churches just don't go very deep into these issues during confirmation, but it's a pretty major issue in all the Lutheran churches. The LCMS and ECLA have the same view on this subject. Phoebe, there's a section on the ECLA website on Predestination.
That's the other place I was gonna look.
Thanks! :)
 
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theseed

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Bulldog said:
I was visiting the LCMS site and took a look on their view on predestination. They believe that God predestined some to salvation, and those who are condemned to Hell are condemned becuase of thier disbelief in Christ.

How does this make sense? If God predestined some to salvation, then wouldn't that by default mean that some were predestined to Hell?
I asked the a simular question a while back.

http://www.christianforums.com/t83264
 
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ByzantineDixie

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Predestination may have been one of Luther's big interests but it is not a predominant issue of discussion in today's Lutheran church. I just finished a college level Lutheran doctrine class and the take home was:

1) The Doctrine of Eternal Election is to be a comfort for believers only...nothing more, nothing less. (not a cause for dispair, not a reason to cease horizontal works of righteousness)

2) There is no reason to ask about those not elected. It is an inappropriate question that attempts to probe the hidden God...(see Mueller reference earlier)

When you think about it...in light of these two particular take home messages the doctrine of election is a secondary issue. Even Mueller writes that it is NOT a central article of faith. From the way it is handled it ranks right behind Eschatology as one of the lesser discussed doctrines.

I think it was a bigger issue for Luther because he had to wrestle with it. At one point in his life it tormented him. He saw it as a cause for dispair. He did the wrestlin' and today we do not have to. If viewed as Luther suggests...added assurance of one's salvation...the importance of the doctrine is indeed on a different level than the doctrines of God, Scripture, Man, Soteriology, Saving Faith, etc.

Why is it such a big issue in other denoms?

Peace

Rose
 
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