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Lutheran Prayer book

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GratiaCorpusChristi

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I say this as a Confessional Lutheran:

Nothing, nothing, absolutely nothing has ever come close in any denomination of Christendom to the power and beauty of the 1662 Book of Common Prayer.

The one used by the Episcopalians (1979) is a pale imitation at best, with its gender-inclusive language (not to bash that form of Christianity, though I disagree with it, but to note that the use of "Father" adds beauty to the original) and modern dialect.

Nothing in Lutheranism, in my opinion, has ever come close.

Even though not technically a prayer book, I'd put forth Laache's Book of Family Prayer, especially the newer ELS translation as an excellent resource.

You have actually experienced the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom or a Tridentine Latin Mass chanted by a full sanctuary of priests, monks, and laity? I'd agree that nothing in Lutheranism has soared to those heights, but I wouldn't rule out all other denominations whatsoever.

Yes, the 1662 Book of Common Prayer is quite lovely textually, but it completely lacks musical notation; this is indicative of the whole philosophy behind it, wherein the core of worship is the relationship between text, book, and word. It's a peculiarly early modern and western way of looking at worship, that ignores gesture, sound, taste, smell, and non-textual sight; it is truly, to borrow the phrase from Islam, a religion of the book, rather than a religion of the community gathered around the Eucharist.

And even when it comes to its text, it may be lovely, but it also lacks many important parts of the historic western liturgy, owing to the pan-Reformation tendency to abridge and eliminate (manifested in England, particularly, in Thomas Cranmer's 1552 edition). I also find the inclusion of the entire lectionary fairly odd and, honestly, a complete waste of paper; better to include the hymns, instead, since Anglicans must have both a hymn book alongside the Book of Common Prayer. The format is the Lutheran Service Book is, honestly, one of the most accessible and ingenious methods for assembling a service manual in the history of Christian worship. Although I have critiques of the Lutheran liturgies as well (textual deficiencies, musical insanity), my only real critique of the LSB is that it only has two ribbons (because come on, you need at least three: for the liturgy, for the next hymn, and for the Psalm). That, and it tells you to sit down to sing. What a strange and stupid Lutheran tradition that is.
 
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WirSindBettler

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You have actually experienced the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom or a Tridentine Latin Mass chanted by a full sanctuary of priests, monks, and laity?

Yes, I have. One of the largest Tridentine congregations in the U.S. is here in Chicago, and I have attended Solemn High Mass in a full sanctuary with numerous monks, just as I have also experienced the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom with my cousin's Greek Orthodox husband.

I'd agree that nothing in Lutheranism has soared to those heights, but I wouldn't rule out all other denominations whatsoever.

While I believe that nothing in Lutheran liturgy has come close to the wording of the 1662 BCP, Lutheranism surely has soared close to the heights of the liturgies you mentioned. Just take a look at Bach's Mass in B Minor, or Luther's Deutsche Messe, which was entirely chanted/sung except for the Sermon.

Yes, the 1662 Book of Common Prayer is quite lovely textually, but it completely lacks musical notation; this is indicative of the whole philosophy behind it, wherein the core of worship is the relationship between text, book, and word.

Often because hymns are also used in conjunction with the liturgy, and the liturgy is rarely, if never, used alone.

Have you ever been to an Evensong in an English Cathedral?

Tell me that's just a "relationship between text, book, and word."

It's a peculiarly early modern and western way of looking at worship, that ignores gesture, sound, taste, smell, and non-textual sight;

Have you ever been to an High-Church Anglican Choral Eucharist that uses the 1662 BCP? Or again, to an Evensong in an English Cathedral?

it is truly, to borrow the phrase from Islam, a religion of the book,

That's a pretty out of context quote that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

rather than a religion of the community gathered around the Eucharist.

I disagree.

And even when it comes to its text, it may be lovely, but it also lacks many important parts of the historic western liturgy, owing to the pan-Reformation tendency to abridge and eliminate (manifested in England, particularly, in Thomas Cranmer's 1552 edition).

Yet I still think that as a liturgical work, it is far better than the 1552 and all other BCPs, and, as stated before, what I consider to be the best liturgical prayer book.

I also find the inclusion of the entire lectionary fairly odd and, honestly, a complete waste of paper; better to include the hymns, instead, since Anglicans must have both a hymn book alongside the Book of Common Prayer.

The lectionary is actually quite useful, and the addition of hymns would increase the size of the book to beyond comfortable in my opinion.

The format is the Lutheran Service Book is, honestly, one of the most accessible and ingenious methods for assembling a service manual in the history of Christian worship.

Well, I would also consider the old red Lutheran Hymnal, and some of the more Scandinavian influences of the Evangelical Lutheran Hymnary, such as the potential for individual altar-rail absolution in service.

Although I have critiques of the Lutheran liturgies as well (textual deficiencies, musical insanity),

Care to expand in another thread?

my only real critique of the LSB is that it only has two ribbons (because come on, you need at least three: for the liturgy, for the next hymn, and for the Psalm).

Many LCMS congregations simply print out an Order of Worship with the hymns and liturgy printed, specifically so you do not have to continually flip within the LSB.

That, and it tells you to sit down to sing. What a strange and stupid Lutheran tradition that is.

Only for some parts during the Divine Service. Most hymns are sung while standing. But I see your point. To quote the traditional Lutheran adage, "we're the ones who sing "Stand Up, Stand Up For Jesus" while sitting down."
 
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G

GratiaCorpusChristi

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Thank you for your detailed reply!

Yes, I have. One of the largest Tridentine congregations in the U.S. is here in Chicago, and I have attended Solemn High Mass in a full sanctuary with numerous monks, just as I have also experienced the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom with my cousin's Greek Orthodox husband.

Well then maybe it's just preference, but having celebrated the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom with the monks of Mount Athos and the 1662 Order at Yorkminster, I'm partial to the former.

While I believe that nothing in Lutheran liturgy has come close to the wording of the 1662 BCP, Lutheranism surely has soared close to the heights of the liturgies you mentioned. Just take a look at Bach's Mass in B Minor, or Luther's Deutsche Messe, which was entirely chanted/sung except for the Sermon.

Both great examples.

Often because hymns are also used in conjunction with the liturgy, and the liturgy is rarely, if never, used alone.

Have you ever been to an Evensong in an English Cathedral?

Tell me that's just a "relationship between text, book, and word."

Have you ever been to an High-Church Anglican Choral Eucharist that uses the 1662 BCP? Or again, to an Evensong in an English Cathedral?

That's a pretty out of context quote that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

I disagree.

Forgive me for reply to all of these together, but my response is essentially the same: I think your experience with the Book of Common Prayer is particularly colored by the revival of liturgy that began with the Oxford movement that really has very little to do with the Book of Common Prayer itself. The 1662 orders of prayer have been greatly expanded upon by the liturgical tradition of those Oxford divines. In its original context, the 1662 Book of Common Prayer (and, even moreso, Cranmer's 1552 gutting of the Sarem Rite) very much a stoic relationship between book, text, and worshiper. At best, I think we can say that it is a testament to the flexibility and adaptability of the 1662 edition that it is not require revision when the Oxford divines embellished it in the light of their excellent historical research on the liturgy. Yet that also leaves open the possibility of a minimally musical, hymnless liturgy of the sort that was actually, historically practiced by the Puritans. The 1662 was designed with that level of latitude in mind, and when evaluating it we must not leave out that aspect.

Yet I still think that as a liturgical work, it is far better than the 1552 and all other BCPs, and, as stated before, what I consider to be the best liturgical prayer book.

That it is heads and shoulders about the 1552, I completely agree.

The lectionary is actually quite useful, and the addition of hymns would increase the size of the book to beyond comfortable in my opinion.

Both formats require the use of two books: Either the Book of Common Prayer and a separate hymnal, or the Lutheran Service Book and a Bible. However, you don't actually need to read along with the lectionary, whereas most of the time you do need to read along with the hymns.

Well, I would also consider the old red Lutheran Hymnal, and some of the more Scandinavian influences of the Evangelical Lutheran Hymnary, such as the potential for individual altar-rail absolution in service.

I was actually not familiar with that aspect. Could you point me to the relevant passage in the TLH?

Care to expand in another thread?

Sure.

Many LCMS congregations simply print out an Order of Worship with the hymns and liturgy printed, specifically so you do not have to continually flip within the LSB.

That's not very cost-effective or green, though.

Only for some parts during the Divine Service. Most hymns are sung while standing. But I see your point. To quote the traditional Lutheran adage, "we're the ones who sing "Stand Up, Stand Up For Jesus" while sitting down."

That's true.
 
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WirSindBettler

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Thank you for your detailed reply!

No problem.

Well then maybe it's just preference, but having celebrated the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom with the monks of Mount Athos and the 1662 Order at Yorkminster, I'm partial to the former.

Well, any liturgy with the monks of Mount Athos would be beautiful. Though I am partial to the York Minster myself (beautiful, beautiful building).

Forgive me for reply to all of these together, but my response is essentially the same: I think your experience with the Book of Common Prayer is particularly colored by the revival of liturgy that began with the Oxford movement that really has very little to do with the Book of Common Prayer itself. The 1662 orders of prayer have been greatly expanded upon by the liturgical tradition of those Oxford divines. In its original context, the 1662 Book of Common Prayer (and, even moreso, Cranmer's 1552 gutting of the Sarem Rite) very much a stoic relationship between book, text, and worshiper. At best, I think we can say that it is a testament to the flexibility and adaptability of the 1662 edition that it is not require revision when the Oxford divines embellished it in the light of their excellent historical research on the liturgy. Yet that also leaves open the possibility of a minimally musical, hymnless liturgy of the sort that was actually, historically practiced by the Puritans. The 1662 was designed with that level of latitude in mind, and when evaluating it we must not leave out that aspect.

Good point. I hadn't considered that.

I was actually not familiar with that aspect. Could you point me to the relevant passage in the TLH?

If you're referring to the more Scandinavian practice of individual altar-rail absolution in service, it's found in the Evangelical Lutheran Hymnary of the ELS, not the Red Lutheran Hymnal formerly used in the LCMS.

I'm personally attracted to the Evangelical Lutheran Hymnary (ELH) as I have a large amount of Scandinavian blood; mostly Norwegian, with some Swedish ancestry. I also have a large amount of English blood (that and Norwegian being my key components), which may account for some of my preference for the 1662 BCP.

Anyways, on p.43 of the ELH, the option is set forth for individual altar-rail absolution, where the congregation members, lining up, each kneel at the altar rail, and receive absolution. In many Scandinavian churches (though not as common anymore), many members also offer a brief Confession while kneeling at the railing.

The text says that the Pastor, before absolution is given, should say "Upon this your confession, come forward to the altar of the Lord and receive the declaration of the forgiveness of all your sins" and then in parentheses, "The communicants come forward and kneel at the altar rail." (ELH, p.43).

That's not very cost-effective or green, though.

I agree. Personally, I like the idea of using the liturgy more often, as it can help us reaffirm in certain creeds and prayers our insistence on "true theology" as taught in Confessional Lutheranism. I do not in any way, shape, or form mean to or want to start a debate, but with the Church under attack as it is by the theory of evolution and homosexuality (both of which are completely and utterly condemned by the LCMS, the ELS, and WELS, which all believe in some form of YEC and traditional marriage), it is often comforting to have a traditional source of liturgy with which to worship and follow.

At least it's not the dreaded CoWo.

Sorry for taking this thread on such a tangent, but this got me thinking.
 
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ContraMundum

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I say this as a Confessional Lutheran:

Nothing, nothing, absolutely nothing has ever come close in any denomination of Christendom to the power and beauty of the 1662 Book of Common Prayer.

The one used by the Episcopalians (1979) is a pale imitation at best, with its gender-inclusive language (not to bash that form of Christianity, though I disagree with it, but to note that the use of "Father" adds beauty to the original) and modern dialect.

Nothing in Lutheranism, in my opinion, has ever come close.

Even though not technically a prayer book, I'd put forth Laache's Book of Family Prayer, especially the newer ELS translation as an excellent resource.

+1 from me.
 
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G

GratiaCorpusChristi

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Well, any liturgy with the monks of Mount Athos would be beautiful. Though I am partial to the York Minster myself (beautiful, beautiful building).

I really, really is.

If you're referring to the more Scandinavian practice of individual altar-rail absolution in service, it's found in the Evangelical Lutheran Hymnary of the ELS, not the Red Lutheran Hymnal formerly used in the LCMS.

I'm personally attracted to the Evangelical Lutheran Hymnary (ELH) as I have a large amount of Scandinavian blood; mostly Norwegian, with some Swedish ancestry. I also have a large amount of English blood (that and Norwegian being my key components), which may account for some of my preference for the 1662 BCP.

Anyways, on p.43 of the ELH, the option is set forth for individual altar-rail absolution, where the congregation members, lining up, each kneel at the altar rail, and receive absolution. In many Scandinavian churches (though not as common anymore), many members also offer a brief Confession while kneeling at the railing.

The text says that the Pastor, before absolution is given, should say "Upon this your confession, come forward to the altar of the Lord and receive the declaration of the forgiveness of all your sins" and then in parentheses, "The communicants come forward and kneel at the altar rail." (ELH, p.43).

That's really awesome. That could be particularly poignant in an Ash Wednesday service or even throughout Lent.

Anyways, I didn't reply to everything else just because I think we're seeing mostly eye to eye now anyway.
 
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Esdra

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Question to the 1662 BoCP: Is the 1928 Version, about which I have read a lot here on CF, especially from more traditinal Anglicans, comparable to the 1662 Version?
As far as I know it is often used in services of the continuing Anglican churches, and the ACA.
 
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WirSindBettler

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Question to the 1662 BoCP: Is the 1928 Version, about which I have read a lot here on CF, especially from more traditinal Anglicans, comparable to the 1662 Version?
As far as I know it is often used in services of the continuing Anglican churches, and the ACA.

It's comparable in terms of language, but in terms of source, different.

When the Episcopal Church split from Anglicanism (in body, not communion) in 1789, they created a new BCP first published in 1790. This BCP combined different elements of the 1662 BCP and the 1764 Scottish Liturgy, which caused it to depart significantly in some aspects from the 1662. To quote Wikipedia, "in the Communion service the prayer of consecration follows mainly the Scottish orders derived from 1549, but the compilers also used materials derived from ancient liturgies especially Eastern Orthodox ones. An epiclesis was included, as in the Scottish book, though modified to meet reformist objections."

The 1928 BCP is a revision of this 1790 BCP, removing certain aspects while adding others.

In my opinion, it is the best among Episcopal BCPs, but still not nearly as powerful as the 1662.
 
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Shane R

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Question to the 1662 BoCP: Is the 1928 Version, about which I have read a lot here on CF, especially from more traditinal Anglicans, comparable to the 1662 Version?

Stylistically, yes. The '28 is a larger work than the '62 and is thus more suitable as a one-volume work for various styles of churchmanship. Practice had evolved in different directions in the intermittent two centuries and this is reflected in the '28 prayer book. WirSindBettler has ably discussed its Episcopal heritage and sources.
 
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ContraMundum

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Question to the 1662 BoCP: Is the 1928 Version, about which I have read a lot here on CF, especially from more traditinal Anglicans, comparable to the 1662 Version?
As far as I know it is often used in services of the continuing Anglican churches, and the ACA.

It's quite close, and if used properly allows enough latitude to accommodate high and low masses as well as a mass closer to the 1662. I used it in a previous parish for 9 years (as a minister in the Continuing movement)
 
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ContraMundum

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It's comparable in terms of language, but in terms of source, different.

When the Episcopal Church split from Anglicanism (in body, not communion) in 1789, they created a new BCP first published in 1790. This BCP combined different elements of the 1662 BCP and the 1764 Scottish Liturgy, which caused it to depart significantly in some aspects from the 1662. To quote Wikipedia, "in the Communion service the prayer of consecration follows mainly the Scottish orders derived from 1549, but the compilers also used materials derived from ancient liturgies especially Eastern Orthodox ones. An epiclesis was included, as in the Scottish book, though modified to meet reformist objections."

The 1928 BCP is a revision of this 1790 BCP, removing certain aspects while adding others.

In my opinion, it is the best among Episcopal BCPs, but still not nearly as powerful as the 1662.

Good comments.
 
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