Lutheran Historic and Current positions on different view

[DaRev]

Well can you explain the Lutheran position on Baptism especially infant baptism. It sure seems like salvation by works, but you state it isn't. Why?

http://www.bookofconcord.org/largecatechism/6_baptism.html

Also I'm trying to understand the Lutheran position on salvation. It partially seems like the reformed position but with an extra clause of salvation for all. I don't get it.

http://www.bookofconcord.org/augsburgconfession.html#article4

http://www.bookofconcord.org/augsburgconfession.html#article4

http://www.bookofconcord.org/smalcald.html#goodworks

 

[ReformedChapin]

http://www.bookofconcord.org/largecatechism/6_baptism.html



http://www.bookofconcord.org/augsburgconfession.html#article4

http://www.bookofconcord.org/augsburgconfession.html#article4

http://www.bookofconcord.org/smalcald.html#goodworks

I read that already...can someone explain it in plain language? It doesn't explain the position clearly.

 

[BigNorsk]

Lutherans don't believe in salvation for all. Is it that you are interpreting general atonement to mean universal salvation?

Marv

 

[BigNorsk]

I will try to explain baptism but don't have enough time right now to do a lot of scripture quoting.

Anyway. Baptism is fundamentally not our work. We see that we are told to be baptized, a passive statement rather than to baptize ourselves which would be active and make baptism our work. Baptism is not our work. Rather is is something done to us that we receive through faith.

Since the promise of forgiveness of sins is attached by scripture to baptism. We see how it fits in, that baptism is not really done by us but is done to us by God. God washes us, he sprinkles us clean, he unites us in the death and resurrection of Christ.

Of course we do not receive this saving grace if we have no faith, for grace comes to us through faith.

Some object that infants cannot have faith, but scripture clearly indicates that they do.

Some object that infants are sinless and not in need of saving, but scripture teaches that all have sinned and indeed the original sin is transmitted to us all.

The normal pattern we see in the Bible is baptism of a whole families or households or even nations.

Many object to baptism as a means of grace on the groups on their belief in once saved always saved. Lutherans do not believe in that doctrine or it's many forms.

Mode of baptism is not important, sprinkling and pouring are both clear, submersion is not as attested to in scripture, but is within the meaning of the word and so is also accepted.

People write entire books on this, is there a particular thing that you are questioning?

Marv

 

[Radiata]

Seeing an opening that can be used to show some knowledge of the Lutheran denomination, salvation is only obtained by faith. But we as Lutherans don't believe that we can obtain this faith on our own. God offers everyone faith, except that not all choose to accept it.

 

[DaRev]

God offers everyone faith, except that not all choose to accept it.

Correction...

It's not that "not all choose to accept it" because no one can "choose to accept it". Our sinful nature prevents us from "choosing to accept." "Choosing" and "accepting" are active works, and our salvation and faith are in no way dependant on our active works.

The correct wording of your statement above is "God offers everyone faith, but many actively reject it."

 

[Radiata]

Correction...

It's not that "not all choose to accept it" because no one can "choose to accept it". Our sinful nature prevents us from "choosing to accept." "Choosing" and "accepting" are active works, and our salvation and faith are in no way dependant on our active works.

The correct wording of your statement above is "God offers everyone faith, but many actively reject it."

I have got to stop pretending like I know things.

 

[DaRev]

I have got to stop pretending like I know things.

Just tryin' to help ya out, bud.

 

[ReformedChapin]

Correction...

It's not that "not all choose to accept it" because no one can "choose to accept it". Our sinful nature prevents us from "choosing to accept." "Choosing" and "accepting" are active works, and our salvation and faith are in no way dependant on our active works.

The correct wording of your statement above is "God offers everyone faith, but many actively reject it."

How is that different than the Reformed view that the elect are predestined before time to choose God? How close is the reformed view to TULIP? If you are not familiar with it I'll clearify.

 

[ReformedChapin]

I will try to explain baptism but don't have enough time right now to do a lot of scripture quoting.

Anyway. Baptism is fundamentally not our work. We see that we are told to be baptized, a passive statement rather than to baptize ourselves which would be active and make baptism our work. Baptism is not our work. Rather is is something done to us that we receive through faith.

Since the promise of forgiveness of sins is attached by scripture to baptism. We see how it fits in, that baptism is not really done by us but is done to us by God. God washes us, he sprinkles us clean, he unites us in the death and resurrection of Christ.

Of course we do not receive this saving grace if we have no faith, for grace comes to us through faith.

Some object that infants cannot have faith, but scripture clearly indicates that they do.

Some object that infants are sinless and not in need of saving, but scripture teaches that all have sinned and indeed the original sin is transmitted to us all.

The normal pattern we see in the Bible is baptism of a whole families or households or even nations.

Many object to baptism as a means of grace on the groups on their belief in once saved always saved. Lutherans do not believe in that doctrine or it's many forms.

Mode of baptism is not important, sprinkling and pouring are both clear, submersion is not as attested to in scripture, but is within the meaning of the word and so is also accepted.

People write entire books on this, is there a particular thing that you are questioning?

Marv

I'm just trying to understand the difference from the reformed view. It seems that we differ in perseverence of the saints although it's no attached to baptism at all. I know that lutherans don't apply universal atonment I don't think any conservative group applies that principle.

Also your view seems to point out that a person who is saved would naturally get baptized since that will show their election.

 

[DaSeminarian]

I read that already...can someone explain it in plain language? It doesn't explain the position clearly.

Quite plainly, it is not works because it is not us baptizing the child, it is God. Besides what has the child done or not done to merit salvation? he has not. So it is not a salvation by works but by Grace.

 

[filosofer]

How is that different than the Reformed view that the elect are predestined before time to choose God? How close is the reformed view to TULIP? If you are not familiar with it I'll clearify.

[FONT= "Book Antiqua"]
We believe that we are predestined "in Christ", Ephesians 1:3-6. Whereas the Reformed/Calvinist view is "predestined" (apart from Christ) and includes double predestination, that is, the God predestined people to damnation/hell. Lutherans do not hold to that aspect.

In Christ's love,
filo
[/font]

 

[ReformedChapin]

We believe that we are predestined "in Christ", Ephesians 1:3-6. Whereas the Reformed/Calvinist view is "predestined" (apart from Christ) and includes double predestination, that is, the God predestined people to damnation/hell. Lutherans do not hold to that aspect.

In Christ's love,
filo

Actually that is incorrect. The Calvinist position states that people will follow that which is their greatest desire. Since our desire is naturally sin, we all follow that path until God completely changes our orientation to follow him. God's will and our will directly concide which is called compatabillism.

I still don't get your definition about "in Christ" and "apart from Christ."

 

[ReformedChapin]

Quite plainly, it is not works because it is not us baptizing the child, it is God. Besides what has the child done or not done to merit salvation? he has not. So it is not a salvation by works but by Grace.

BUt the child, well atleast the parents child must have the will to get baptized? If that doesn't occur how would God accomplish his work?

 

[ReformedChapin]

Again, I don't want this to turn into a brawl, I'm just trying to understand the differences in what I call the Lutheran system.

 

[filosofer]

Actually that is incorrect. The Calvinist position states that people will follow that which is their greatest desire. Since our desire is naturally sin, we all follow that path until God completely changes our orientation to follow him. God's will and our will directly concide which is called compatabillism.

I still don't get your definition about "in Christ" and "apart from Christ."

[FONT= "Book Antiqua"]
I might suggest that you re-study Calvinist teaching about predestination.


In Christ's love,
filo
[/font]

 

[DaRev]

How close is the reformed view to TULIP? If you are not familiar with it I'll clearify.

I am assuming that you made a typo and are actually asking how close the Lutherans are to TULIP.

T=Total Depravity... With this Lutherans agree

U= Unconditional Election... While the Scriptures do clearly indicate that there are those who are predestined to salvation, it does not state that ONLY the elect are saved, neither does it state that those non-elect are automatically damned.

L= Limited Atonement... This contradicts Scripture. Christ died for "the world". God desires that "all be saved." Limited atonement teaches that Christ only died for a select few, which contradicts Scripture.

I= Irresistible Grace... Scripture also tells us that it is possible for us to turnb from God's grace and thus lose our salvation.

P= Perserverence of Grace... in other words Once Saved, Always Saved. Again, the Scriptures tell us that we can turn and fall from grace and lose our salvation.

BUt the child, well atleast the parents child must have the will to get baptized? If that doesn't occur how would God accomplish his work?

The call to Baptism is moved in the person or the parents of the child by the Holy Spirit. It is by faith that they are brought to Baptism.

 

[ReformedChapin]

I might suggest that you re-study Calvinist teaching about predestination.


In Christ's love,
filo

Obviously you are not familiar with all of reformed theology. But please before correcting my theology atleast provide proof of your statements. Thank You.

Actually I changed my mind. Please stop posting...it seems all you want to do is pick a fight and I cannot defend my system here because of the rules so I please ask you to just stop posting.

 

[ReformedChapin]

I am assuming that you made a typo and are actually asking how close the Lutherans are to TULIP.

T=Total Depravity... With this Lutherans agree

U= Unconditional Election... While the Scriptures do clearly indicate that there are those who are predestined to salvation, it does not state that ONLY the elect are saved, neither does it state that those non-elect are automatically damned.

L= Limited Atonement... This contradicts Scripture. Christ died for "the world". God desires that "all be saved." Limited atonement teaches that Christ only died for a select few, which contradicts Scripture.

I= Irresistible Grace... Scripture also tells us that it is possible for us to turnb from God's grace and thus lose our salvation.

P= Perserverence of Grace... in other words Once Saved, Always Saved. Again, the Scriptures tell us that we can turn and fall from grace and lose our salvation.



The call to Baptism is moved in the person or the parents of the child by the Holy Spirit. It is by faith that they are brought to Baptism.

I didn't ask for you opinion on TULIP, obviously you have a different view. I want to know it in contrast to Lutheranism.

 

[dinkime]

you have been given the Lutheran teachings on all the matters you questioned, they must not agree with what your beliefs are. Rev has given you what the Lutheran thoughts are in comparison to what you asked about, he should not have to explain further......