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Lukewarm Churches

Discussion in 'Christian Scriptures' started by Doug Melven, Jan 1, 2018.

  1. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    I was going to respond in the other thread, but I felt it would be off topic.
    Why do we need to confess our sins if we are saved by grace?

    Revelation 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
    3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

    Before I get into the explanation I want to point out that Jesus is not referring to people breaking the 10 Commandments.
    Jesus put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. Hebrews 9:26
    Jesus is the Lamb of God that took away the sin of the world. John 1:29
    Jesus does not impute or hold sin against us. Romans 4:6-8

    Also, these 7 letters are written to churches, not individuals.
    A church can be hot or cold and still not be spewed out of His mouth.
    So what these Hot and Cold refer to is not stated in the text, so I won't elaborate on them.
    If someone else wants to, feel free.
    Jesus defined what it was to be lukewarm.
    When a church says, "I am rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing".
    Jesus then tells them what the reality is. "Miserable, poor, blind and naked".
    If a church is content with where they are at, and have no thirst for God's Word and aren't preaching the Gospel to sinners to get them saved, I would say that is a lukewarm church and they should repent.
     
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  2. PeaceJoyLove

    PeaceJoyLove Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 3:18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, white garments so that you may be clothed and your shameful nakedness not exposed, and salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.

    John 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. 40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? 41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

    John 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.

    We are called to the marriage feast prepared by The Father, but only those properly attired can enter through the door (the parable of the 10 virgins) ..."Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them."

    For who is greater, the one who reclines at the table or the one who serves? Is not the one who reclines? But I am among you as the One who serves.

    To recline at the table is to enter in to His rest, coming in out of the field labouring for bread, God's glory fills the temple not made with human hands (we be that temple)...He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

    When we 'see'/perceive the spirit of Christ as something separate/outside of our being, we are not single of eye. Our faith promises us an end (that takes us back to the beginning that has no end), no longer naked and ashamed, but clothed in HIS glory...the truth is One spirit individually and collectively dwells within...as Paul said, "Christ in you, the hope of glory."...faith is the urging from within to seek more of Him until HE fills to overflowing as promised.

    It is those who hunger and thirst that keep seeking and WILL find the truth and HE fills as promised...but He can only give us what we can 'see' as possible...
     
  3. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    I read through your post twice and still fail to see the point.
    Remember as bad as these Laodiceans were, they were still in Christ.
    Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
    12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
    12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

    The ones Jesus is referring to in John 9 and 15 were not sons.
     
  4. PeaceJoyLove

    PeaceJoyLove Well-Known Member

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    We are all in Christ even if we cannot "see" it (yet)...we all have the same father, created in the image of God. All things come from Him and work together for His purpose to be fulfilled (that He purposed in Himself from the beginning...)

    The duality within (Romans 7) is carnal mind and mind of Christ...Victory is promised by faith...the carnal mind tends to build an image or idol (put God in a box) of who/what they perceive Him to be and worship it. This will bring about the fiery trials and tribulation...(Just as in O.T. Passover was a shadow...the sacrificial lamb in the evening, the flesh was to be eaten by morning and any remaining burned up by fire.) And, we all be lambs for the slaughter...

    God loves everyone impartially...even while we were/are yet sinners...HE made us all, though most do not know who they are (have been since the beginning) because of the amnesia that came upon Adam (slumber and eyesight change...)For something to be renewed, it has to have already been...as it is to be restored...reconciled...

    Ecclesiastes 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity into man's heart, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end.

    For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.

    We see/perceive from where we are at. Man divides and measures that which is immeasurable (the spirit of God) though that is not out of order in the process taking place within...each man in his own order...according to the father...

    Are we not the temple (dwelling place) of God not made/built with human hands? Who are we to condemn and judge God's handiwork? Isaiah 6 is glorious to 'see' as God intends for us to 'see'...
     
  5. lee11

    lee11 Member

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    Hi

    Thank you, brother, for sharing that, if Gods talking to a church building and not to an individual how is it possible for a church building to repent? how can a church building be hot or cold? how does God spew out a church building?

    Hes, talking to the members in each church, the person is the temple of God, the building is the fellowship, God is rebuking the oversight & congregation for their practices in each fellowship.

    however according to the OSAS doctrine thats verse is automatically negated and so is this topic because luke warm churches/christians cant exist because the interpretation of the OSOS doctrine automatically supersedes sin of any type or kind except the sin of the Holy Spirit as you previously mentioned.

    Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? 22Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? 23Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? 24For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. Romans 8.21-24

    This verse makes it clear that believers that say they are Christians and sin wilfully, cause non-Christians to blaspheme God because of their hypocrisy.

    Can you clarify where or how you heard the OSAS doctrine and how you converted to its belief system please

    thx
     
  6. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    The church is not a building. I never said it was. I never said Jesus was talking to a building.
    I belong to a local church. I do not belong to a building.
    If someone says something to my church, they say it to all of the members in the church at once.
    The Christian life was never meant to be a solitary affair. There is individual responsibility, but the message is for the local church as a whole.

    What you say is from Romans 8 is actually from Romans 2 and Paul is not referring to Believers when he says these things.
    He is referring to those people who are advocating keeping the law and when they don't keep it they dishonor God.

    Different people perceive OSAS in different ways.
    My belief is when a person is born-again they are made spiritually alive.
    They are now a new person.
    They have become a child of God.
    And God is not so quick to let His children leave Him.
    But if a mature Christian rejects God, I believe God will let them go.
    According to Hebrews 6:4-6 they cannot be reborn-again. It is impossible.
     
  7. lee11

    lee11 Member

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    hi

    how does a mature christian reject God?

    thx
     
  8. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    Exactly.
    A mature Christian is the only Christian who can reject God.
    Just the same as a child could not successfully reject there parents till they matured into an adult.
    Only a mature Christian who knows what he is doing can reject God.
    Do a study on Hebrews 6:1-6.
    I used to think that those verses in 4-6 were referring to someone who had not been saved yet. But the more I thought about it I realized it had to be a mature Christian as it would not be impossible for an unsaved person to renew there repentance as they would not have repented in the first place.

    There is a very good reason why God regards us as His children and not servants.
     
  9. lee11

    lee11 Member

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    hi

    these verses contradict the OSAS doctrine, you said there is no sin that can seperate any believer from eternal salvation or from God but ONLY the sin against the Holy Spirit.

    so how can the sin of falling away or rejecting God seperate the believer from eternal salvation?

    thx
     
  10. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    I did not say that there is no sin that can separate us from eternal life.
    I said "Jesus was not referring to people breaking the 10 commandments.
    Then I showed Scriptures stating what Jesus did about sin.
    I also said I only accept the OSAS doctrine with a qualifier, that is a mature Christian can reject his salvation.
    I also said what I believed about the OSAS doctrine.
    Jesus did not die for the sin of unbelief, that is why the Holy Spirit convicts the world of unbelief. John 16
    He also did not die for the unforgivable sin. If He did, then it would no longer be unforgivable.
    I really do not like it when people say I said something that I did not say. Especially for Christians to do that. It is quite unChristlike.
     
  11. lee11

    lee11 Member

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    hi

    i apologise for offending you bother i agree it is unchristian like and i should have clarified which post i was referring too as well when i responded.

    i have been taking into account all the responses you said in relation to OSAS to get a better understanding and this was one of the posts you posted

    For all practical purposes. Yes.
    With one qualification, a fully mature Christian can reject his salvation.
    Just like a child can't reject there parents, but an adult can.
    You can't lose salvation like you would lose something earthly.
    And you can't lose it because of a sin you committed, unless that sin is blasphemy against the Holy spirit by a mature believer.

    when i read Hebrews 6.1-6 and combined it with what you had said in this earlier post, with one qualification, the qualification would still be a sin but then you say you cant lose it because of sin, (which would imply any sin) unless its a sin against the Holy Spirit.

    this is how i reached my conclusion.

    so how does the sin of falling away or rejecting God seperate the believer from eternal salvation?

    thx

     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2018
  12. Ron Gurley

    Ron Gurley What U See is What U Get!

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    Colossians 4:13
    For I testify for him that he has a deep concern for you and for those who are in Laodicea and Hierapolis.

    There were three main cities in the beautiful Lycos River valley: (present day Western Turkey)

    Laodicea...$$ rich by black wool market, EYE MEDICINE, banking, trade, population...needed water by aqua-duct from:

    Colossae...warm springs, calcium rich / bacteria free water

    Hierapolis...cold springs, deep pure water

    ref: Laodicea (BiblePlaces.com)

    Revelation 3 (NASB)....Message to believers in Laodicea

    14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:

    The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:

    15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot;
    I wish that you were cold (Hierapolis) or hot (Colossae).
    16 So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
    (AQUA-DUCT mixture allowed bacteria / impure)

    17 Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,”
    (HISTORY: unique black wool commerce + EYE MEDICINE + banking + population concentration, etc...REALITY!)
    (Problem:)
    and you do not know that you are (SPIRITUALLY) wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
    (SOLUTION:)
    18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire (SIN REMOVED) so that you may become (SPIRITUALLY) rich, and

    white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and

    eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. (SIN REMOVED/FORGIVEN)

    WHY?

    19 Those whom I love (SAVED BELIEVERS), I reprove and discipline;(TRAIN)

    therefore be zealous (IN GOOD WORKS) and repent.(TURN TO GOD)

    ("FREE WILL" SALVATION!)

    20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; (God spiritually calls/draws ALL men!)
    if anyone hears My voice and opens the door,(Man spiritually ACCEPTS salvation / gracious provisions)
    I will COME IN to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. (spiritually changed, born again from above)

    REWARD PROMISED!

    21 He who overcomes,(WORLD + FLESH + DEVIL)
    I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne,
    as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

    22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”



    REVELATION 1:...Message to the Seven Churches

    4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia:
    Grace to you and peace,
    from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and
    from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5 and
    from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

    To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood—

    6 and He has made us to be a kingdom,
    priests to His God and Father

    —to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

    7 Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, (SECOND COMING??)
    even those who pierced Him;
    and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

    8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God,
    “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
     
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