Luke 2:14

[DeaconDean]

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[Shane2336]

An interesting take on an already beautiful verse. Thank you for sharing.

 

[Mayflower1]

Thank you for sharing! It looks Greek to me.

 

[Radagast]

In the KJV, Luke 2:14 reads as such:

"Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men."

In the Greek, it reads:

"Δόξα ἐν ὑψίστοις θεῷ καὶ ἐπὶ γῆς εἰρήνη ἐν ἀνθρώποις εὐδοκίας. " -Lk. 2:14 (GNT)

Which Greek? The standard reading is indeed Δόξα ἐν ὑψίστοις θεῷ καὶ ἐπὶ γῆς εἰρήνη ἐν ἀνθρώποις εὐδοκίας, which the NIV translates (I think accurately) as Glory to God in the highest heaven, and on earth peace to those on whom his favor rests (i.e. the good will being referred to here is God's good will). Virtually all modern translations (e.g. NAB, ESV, HCSB, NLT, NASB) have something similar.

The Textus Receptus, however, has Δόξα ἐν ὑψίστοις θεῷ καὶ ἐπὶ γῆς εἰρήνη ἐν ἀνθρώποις εὐδοκία (lacking the final letter, which radically changes the meaning), hence the KJV translation.

Interestingly, a close look at the Codex Sinaiticus shows that the final letter there has been erased (see attached image).

 

[DeaconDean]

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[Radagast]

Well, its just my opinion, but I have no use for the NIV.

The NAB, ESV, HCSB, NLT, NASB, and Mounce all agree with the NIV here. I reckon I trust those guys more than I trust you.

The translation all those people give is consistent with the way that εὐδοκία is used in the Septuagint to refer to the will of God, as well as the way it is used in NT passages like Luke 10:21.

It is true that the Latin Vulgate agrees with your interpretation, and hence so do older Catholic Bibles like the Douay-Rheims (which has "Glory to God in the highest; and on earth peace to men of good will"), but I think the Vulgate is wrong here, and I'm a little surprised to see a Calvinist Baptist following it.

I use the Hebrew/Greek/English Interlinear

Which interlinear? There are some really, really bad ones out there.

 

[DeaconDean]

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[Radagast]

Technically, technically, the KJV has it wrong.

I agree. The KJV is going by the Textus Receptus/Majority Text with the missing last letter. They perhaps do a reasonable translation job, but I agree that they start with the wrong Greek text, and that leads them to the wrong English rendering.

If you want to get to the nitty and gritty, "εὐδοκίας" roughly translates out as "with whom he is pleased".

I agree with you 100%. That's exactly what I was saying, and that gives us something like:

Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace among those with whom he is pleased! (ESV)

Glory to God in the highest heaven, and on earth peace to those on whom his favor rests. (NIV)

Glory to God in the highest heaven, and peace on earth to people He favors! (HCSB)

I think the NIV and HCSB are probably the best of those, because the Greek does not mean "Peace to those who have earned God's favour."

I'm not gonna argue with you.

Good, because we actually seem to be in agreement now. I was just really confused by you recommending an out-of-date Catholic translation based on the Vulgate.

After your "more than I trust you" statement.

I didn't mean it nasty; If 100 NT Greek experts all agreed, I would trust them more than I trust myself as well.

 

[DeaconDean]

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[Radagast]

If Luke 2:14 means "peace on earth among men in whom he is pleased", who was God pleased with when the heavenly host said this?

OK, I'm confused again. I thought we were in agreement.

I would translate, with the NIV, Glory to God in the highest heaven, and on earth peace to those on whom his favor rests, that is, referring either to the elect, whom Jesus was going to save, or to the human race in general, being blessed by the Incarnation.

I don't 100% agree with Calvin on this verse, but I agree with him when he writes "But as εὐδοκία is constantly used in Scripture in the sense of the Hebrew word רצון, the old translator rendered it beneplacitum, or, good-will. This passage is not correctly understood as referring to the acceptance of grace. The angels rather speak of it as the source of peace, and thus inform us that peace is a free gift, and flows from the pure mercy of God. ... God has been pleased to bestow his undeserved favor on men, with whom he formerly was at deadly variance."

However, if we render it "towards men of goodwill" we are able to see that at this time of the Saviors birth, men had the nature of "goodwill".

I can see how one might interpret the genitive that way, but like I said before, it's not consistent with the way that εὐδοκία is used in both the LXX and NT (e.g. Luke 10:21, Ephesians 1:5) to refer to the good will of God.

And theologically, saying that "men had the nature of 'goodwill'" is very strange. Was Christ born in Bethlehem because the human race had made themselves such wonderful people?

No. To quote John Macarthur, "Salvation peace belongs to those to whom God is pleased to give it; it is not a reward for those who have good will, but a gracious gift to those who are the objects of God's good will."

 

[DeaconDean]

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[Radagast]

If that is the case, then what about the rest of the world?

It could also refer to the human race in general, being blessed by the Incarnation. Identifying exactly who are "those on whom his favor rests" is an exegetical question.

I've been doing some digging, and I must say I can find no NT examples where εὐδοκία is used in a "men having good will" sense.

 

[DeaconDean]

Admins, please close this thread.

Expect no further replies from me.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Radagast]

So...if men did not have a nature of good will

As I said, the idea that men at the time had "a nature of good will" is inconsistent with the way that the NT uses the word εὐδοκία, as well as being theologically rather strange.

It's particularly strange that you identify as a Calvinist but you seem to be arguing that men earned their salvation by "having good will."

You know what, don't answer that.

Admins, please close this thread.

OK, sure. Vaya con Dios.

 

[Hammster]

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