Luke 14:33

[ciel_perdu]

Jesus says in Luke 14:33

''whomsoever of you that does not forsake all that he owns cannot be my disciple''.

I am interested in hearing people's thoughts on this. I see from the gospel that the disciples actually obeyed this, that Jesus told the mutlitudes, the religious leaders and his disciples to sell all they own and give the money to the poor, and I see in the book of Acts Christians doing just this.

The context is so overwhelming, that I wonder why Christians today don't obey this teaching from Jesus. I mean, the verse doesn't even really need interpreting. He simple say, do this (forsake all), or you can't be that (my disciple).

People often say that it was just for the 12, but that interpretation completely overlooks Jesus saying that anyone who wants to be a disciple (Christian) must do this. It also overlooks Jesus command to his disciples at the end of Matthew where he sends them into all the world to teach people to ''obey all things I have commanded you''.

Or, perhaps they will say it's only meant for those who feel ''called'' to obey it. But, again, is that what JESUS said? It's interesting that everyone wants eternal life, and I am sure everyone is familiar with John 3:16. That whosoever in John is the same whosoever in Luke 14:33. It doesn't make sense that we can claim that one and reject the other.

Of course, people will point to others who didn't forsake all, but still called themselves believers. But, why on earth would we want to point to someone who is not obeying the teachings of Jesus as an example of a christian?

The simple thing for me is that Christ said something very clear, his disciples obeyed it, and he commanded them to teach US to obey it too.

So why don't we?

I look forward to your thoughts.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

I believe if you look at the whole context of Luke 14:26-35, the preceeding verses will give you a better idea about the point the Lord is making in all this.

For instance in Luke 14:26 Jesus said;"If any man come to me, and (hate not) his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

In this verse, was Jesus telling us ( to hate) our father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, and ourselves?

No, because that would be a contradiction to the whole Truth of Love.

The Lord was simply showing us in these verses that we must be willing ( in our hearts) to forsake everything in this world, and in our lives, and even our own life itself to become his disciple.

The Lord was showing that this is the type of faith, and conviction that must be present( in our hearts and minds) to be his disciple.

It is not about the carnal things on the outside, but it is all about the conviction of the heart on the inside.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Heres some verses likewise you can look around in relation to the same truth

And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

1John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

Between these two shows (in them) shows the principle of worldly sorrow (which worketh death) and godly sorrow

Mat 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

Verses...(godly sorrow here unto salvation)

Luke 19:8 And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.

Thus the Lord saying, "This day has salvation come to this house" (a son of Abraham here)

1Titus 6:18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;

Because it likewise says...

1John 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

Acts 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

He asks Jesus what "he lacks"

Luke 18:22 Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

Again...

Mat 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

Luke 12:15 Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth.

You cannot serve God and mammon

Johns teaching is exemplified Zacchaeus (the chief publican) John says if you have ONE coat give to him that has NONE (meat likewise) whereas Zacchaeus says, Behold , Lord, THE HALF OF my goods I give to the poor; Jesus follows after John who is sent before Him to prepare the way before Him.

1Ti 6:8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.

Seek first His Kingdom and His righteousness and these things shall be added to you.

Theres a dynamic in the contrasts in each picture also, which is quite amazing to behold, Jesus says all, John says half and Paul says if you sell all and have not love (you are nothing) whereas John uses the same example as evidence of the love of God being in one. Both pictures speaks to the heart of godly verses worldly sorrow and that in relation to the love of the Father (first and foremost) in one. Whereas in the parable of where the word is sown equally speak to rich (riches of this world) and poor alike (the cares of this world) when it comes to bearing fruit unto perfection, even as we are perfected in love likewise. Not only that but Paul was instructed in both abounding and suffering need for a reason, I shared on this before, but its of "opportunity" and yet in his need he never desired a gift however he knew fruit would abound to their account (not their earthly one either) but their heavenly.

I have a study on the contrast between Zacchaeus and the rich young ruler, notice the differences in them, what Jesus asks one to give up, verses what the other did, study godly sorrow verses sorrow of the world and the distribution to the needs of others and what eternal life is (to know Him) and what it is to know me?

This too is shown...

1Cr 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

Let all our things be done with charity

God bless you

 

[ciel_perdu]

I believe if you look at the whole context of Luke 14:26-35, the preceeding verses will give you a better idea about the point the Lord is making in all this.

For instance in Luke 14:26 Jesus said;"If any man come to me, and (hate not) his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

In this verse, was Jesus telling us ( to hate) our father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, and ourselves?

No, because that would be a contradiction to the whole Truth of Love.

The Lord was simply showing us in these verses that we must be willing ( in our hearts) to forsake everything in this world, and in our lives, and even our own life itself to become his disciple.

The Lord was showing that this is the type of faith, and conviction that must be present( in our hearts and minds) to be his disciple.

It is not about the carnal things on the outside, but it is all about the conviction of the heart on the inside.

We understand that Jesus does not want us to literally hate our family etc, because he taught that love was the greatest commandment. Obviously wisdom is needed to understand what he meant. Reality is, when we choose to actually start obeying the teachings of Jesus like his disciples did, it will LOOK like we hate our families, when we start taking his teachings seriously e.g. work for God and not money, forsake all your own, go into all the world preaching, call no man father etc etc.

Your right, we don't hate because it would be a contradiction to love, but it's not logical to apply that same reasoning to luke 14:33, because there is nothing contradictory in actually OBEYING litterally what Jesus says there. If you can find in his teachings where he tells you to keep all of your possessions, then perhaps one would need to look more closely at what he meant, but on the contrary we actually see his disciples obeying this, Jesus teaching everyone to do it, and commanding his disciples to teach others to obey the same.

Jesus says very clearly...''whosoever does not forsake all that he owns cannot be my disciple''. There is no way one can interpret that as meaning in our hearts, when it's plain as day he's saying this is what you actually NEED to do. Consider again john 3:16. ''whosoever believes on him has eternal life''. It's a similar sentence. Do you want eternal life? then believe Jesus. Do you want to be a disciple? Then forsake all you own. Or perhaps Jesus never meant for us to obey him/believe him too, perhaps we just have to be WILLING to obey Jesus in our heart (and not actually do it) to have eternal life?

Jesus teaches a lot about what we should do with the carnal outside things. Of course the inside is important, and if we get the inside right the outside will follow. However if we want to be clean like Jesus told the pharisees, he said sell all you own and give to the poor.

It's convenient to say that one only needs to forsake in their heart, and that it's not about carnal things like money and possessions, to excuse actually obeying what Jesus clearly taught and that his disciples obeyed. Perhaps it's only the unspiritual who have to forsake all they own, who stop working for money and work for love, who sell what they have to give to the poor, and who don't store up riches in heaven? Perhaps it's the spiritual people who don't have to forsake all they own, the spiritual people who can work for money and God at the same time, and who don't get attached to their ever mounting possessions?

Or perhaps, the best way to find out who is attached to their money, to their possessions, to their families, to their relationships, to their reputations, is to do what Jesus actually taught. Forsake it all, like he did, and like his disciples did.

 

[ciel_perdu]

Heres some verses likewise you can look around in relation to the same truth

And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

1John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

Between these two shows (in them) shows the principle of worldly sorrow (which worketh death) and godly sorrow

Mat 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

Verses...(godly sorrow here unto salvation)

Luke 19:8 And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.

Thus the Lord saying, "This day has salvation come to this house" (a son of Abraham here)

1Titus 6:18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;

Because it likewise says...

1John 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

Acts 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

He asks Jesus what "he lacks"

Luke 18:22 Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

Again...

Mat 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

Luke 12:15 Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth.

You cannot serve God and mammon

Johns teaching is exemplified Zacchaeus (the chief publican) John says if you have ONE coat give to him that has NONE (meat likewise) whereas Zacchaeus says, Behold , Lord, THE HALF OF my goods I give to the poor; Jesus follows after John who is sent before Him to prepare the way before Him.

1Ti 6:8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.

Seek first His Kingdom and His righteousness and these things shall be added to you.

Theres a dynamic in the contrasts in each picture also, which is quite amazing to behold, Jesus says all, John says half and Paul says if you sell all and have not love (you are nothing) whereas John uses the same example as evidence of the love of God being in one. Both pictures speaks to the heart of godly verses worldly sorrow and that in relation to the love of the Father (first and foremost) in one. Whereas in the parable of where the word is sown equally speak to rich (riches of this world) and poor alike (the cares of this world) when it comes to bearing fruit unto perfection, even as we are perfected in love likewise. Not only that but Paul was instructed in both abounding and suffering need for a reason, I shared on this before, but its of "opportunity" and yet in his need he never desired a gift however he knew fruit would abound to their account (not their earthly one either) but their heavenly.

I have a study on the contrast between Zacchaeus and the rich young ruler, notice the differences in them, what Jesus asks one to give up, verses what the other did, study godly sorrow verses sorrow of the world and the distribution to the needs of others and what eternal life is (to know Him) and what it is to know me?

This too is shown...

1Cr 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

Let all our things be done with charity

God bless you

Thanks for your thoughts.

I think what John said was oood, but like you point out he was just preparing people for Jesus. He said if you have two give to him who has none, whereas Jesus says forsake all you own, sell all you own. With Zacheaus, people often cite him as someone who doesn't 'forsake all', but like you shared he said he would give half of his goods to the poor...but he also said...if I have cheated anyone I will repay him 4 times over. It's quite likely the people he would have cheated were the poor, and there was probably a lot of them, and paying each back 4 times would probably be the OTHER half of his wealth, so I would argue that he actually still followed what Jesus taught, which would tie in with Jesus' exclamation that salvation had come to his house.

There is more evidence that Zacheaus actions were in response to what Jesus taught, than there is evidence that Zacheaus represents some kind of exception to the rule.

I do agree with you that love is the most important thing. Many people cite Paul from 1 Corinthians 13 where he says that ''if I bestow all my goods to the poor and have not love I are nothing'', as an argument against having to obey what Jesus commanded his disciples. However, while it is true, one may sell all they own and give the money to the poor, and have not love then it means nothing, a greater truth is that Jeswus actualy WANTS us to do all these things...WITH love.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Blessings to you! Wow folks really use Zacchaeus (a son of Abraham) unto whom Jesus said, "salvation come" that day as disobedience?

I have heard them all now

Shown in light of Johns teaching, as even Jesus said the publicans (as was Zacchaeus, not to mention Chief) believed and unto whom the Lord justified (as it says, the people justified GOD being baptized of John) and the teaching is established in Zacchaeus in accord with what he taught, John goes before the Lord in the order established by God to prepare the way before the Lord and likewise to Zaccheaus (eager to see the Lord) was waiting to see Jesus. Jesus declared him "a son of Abraham" and also says elsewhere if you were the children of Abraham ye would do the works of Abraham likewise. So Jesus justifies Zaccheaus (by His word) he is a son of Abraham, I think that is pretty kool actually.

I posted in Zacchaeus a bit more on another thread, I see in Him a godly sorrow worked out in and through Him in accord with the baptism of repentance (in his heart) and the outworking of the same in what is given us to behold of Him in much the same.

In respects to the other...What LACKEST I? Reminds me of what can be lacking in our own faith... A faith that actually works by LOVE


God bless

 

[Brenda Morgan]

Luke 6:24

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

24 But woe to you who are rich, for you are receiving your comfort in full.

By the world's standards most Americans are rich.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Its a couple to that one as well...

Prov 28:11 The rich man is wise in his own conceit; but the poor that hath understanding searcheth him out.

1Cr 4:8 Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you.

Romans 12:16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.


Prov 18:23 The poor useth intreaties; but the rich answereth roughly.

1Cr 4:13 Being defamed, we intreat.

Prov 26:12 Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.


1Cr3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

Prov 30:9 Lest I be full, and deny thee, and say, Who is the LORD? or lest I be poor, and steal, and take the name of my God in vain.



Prov 28:11 The rich man is wise in his own conceit; but the poor that hath understanding searcheth him out.

Following verses...

1Cr 4:10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.



Ecc 9:16 Then said I, Wisdom is better than strength: nevertheless the poor man's wisdom is despised, and his words are not heard

1Cr 4:18 Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.


Those are pretty kool too

 

[ciel_perdu]

Blessings to you! Wow folks really use Zacchaeus (a son of Abraham) unto whom Jesus said, "salvation come" that day as disobedience?

I have heard them all now

Shown in light of Johns teaching, as even Jesus said the publicans (as was Zacchaeus, not to mention Chief) believed and unto whom the Lord justified (as it says, the people justified GOD being baptized of John) and the teaching is established in Zacchaeus in accord with what he taught, John goes before the Lord in the order established by God to prepare the way before the Lord and likewise to Zaccheaus (eager to see the Lord) was waiting to see Jesus. Jesus declared him "a son of Abraham" and also says elsewhere if you were the children of Abraham ye would do the works of Abraham likewise. So Jesus justifies Zaccheaus (by His word) he is a son of Abraham, I think that is pretty kool actually.

I posted in Zacchaeus a bit more on another thread, I see in Him a godly sorrow worked out in and through Him in accord with the baptism of repentance (in his heart) and the outworking of the same in what is given us to behold of Him in much the same.

In respects to the other...What LACKEST I? Reminds me of what can be lacking in our own faith... A faith that actually works by LOVE


God bless

I guess it's not clear to me from your posts whether you think Christians should forsake all they own to be a disciple of Jesus?

 

[ciel_perdu]

Luke 6:24

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

24 But woe to you who are rich, for you are receiving your comfort in full.

By the world's standards most Americans are rich.

Hi Brenda,

Good verse. And very true that most Americans are rich. Reality is that pretty much all of us living in 1st world countries are rich, certainly we are when compared to those living in 3rd world conditions. In some ways we live, eat, travel better than kings and queens from days gone by. Truly we are rich.

Most people tend to judge their own greed (whether they are rich or not) against people who have more than them. I am sure ALL of us can find people who have more than us, and then say they are greedy (rich) and we are not. But, there is always someone with less than us, who could say the same, i.e. we are greedy because we have more.

I think Jesus had the answer to greed, and that was to stop working for money, to sell all we own, to the give the money to the poor and the teach others to do the same. If people took Jesus' teachings seriously, in the end we would have no need of money, and there would be no poor, but all of us would share all things in common.

 

[Brenda Morgan]

Hi Brenda,

Good verse. And very true that most Americans are rich. Reality is that pretty much all of us living in 1st world countries are rich, certainly we are when compared to those living in 3rd world conditions. In some ways we live, eat, travel better than kings and queens from days gone by. Truly we are rich.

Most people tend to judge their own greed (whether they are rich or not) against people who have more than them. I am sure ALL of us can find people who have more than us, and then say they are greedy (rich) and we are not. But, there is always someone with less than us, who could say the same, i.e. we are greedy because we have more.

I think Jesus had the answer to greed, and that was to stop working for money, to sell all we own, to the give the money to the poor and the teach others to do the same. If people took Jesus' teachings seriously, in the end we would have no need of money, and there would be no poor, but all of us would share all things in common.

Most rationalize Jesus' teachings on wealth, donate $50 a year to their favorite charity, and believe that they are right with God.

 

[Fireinfolding]

I guess it's not clear to me from your posts whether you think Christians should forsake all they own to be a disciple of Jesus?

You mean to ask do I believe what Jesus said, yes, all he said

Mark 10:28 Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.

Mark 10:29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,

Mark 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.


God bless