Luke 11:13 vs Mathew 7:11

[Icansee]

"If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?"

Ok, so the good gift in this context is the Holy Spirit. Good gift in Greek is btw "agathos doma", agathos meaning "of good constitution or nature, useful, salutary, good, pleasant, agreeable, joyful, happy, excellent, distinguished, upright, honourable" and doma meaning "gift", plain and simple.

Now, Mathew 7:11 it says: "If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?"

No talk of the Spirit at all, just "good things", that btw is the same word as in Luke, "agathos".

So when one text is telling you that the Spirit is the good gift and the other one is talking about any good gift, what is the definition of a good gift? How can I know if what I'm praying for is a good gift or not? Perhaps even that what I'm praying for is not a good gift at all, and that God dont wanna give it to me?

I constantnly see people around me getting what I'm praying for, and they didn't even ask for it. But am I getting it? No sirree. And "God works in mysterious ways" just doesn't cut it.

 

[Kutte]

"If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?"

Ok, so the good gift in this context is the Holy Spirit. Good gift in Greek is btw "agathos doma", agathos meaning "of good constitution or nature, useful, salutary, good, pleasant, agreeable, joyful, happy, excellent, distinguished, upright, honourable" and doma meaning "gift", plain and simple.

Now, Mathew 7:11 it says: "If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?"

No talk of the Spirit at all, just "good things", that btw is the same word as in Luke, "agathos".

So when one text is telling you that the Spirit is the good gift and the other one is talking about any good gift, what is the definition of a good gift? How can I know if what I'm praying for is a good gift or not? Perhaps even that what I'm praying for is not a good gift at all, and that God dont wanna give it to me?

I constantnly see people around me getting what I'm praying for, and they didn't even ask for it. But am I getting it? No sirree. And "God works in mysterious ways" just doesn't cut it.

Icansee,

Funny to notice your final sentence telling us that your prayers were of benefit to others but not to you who did the praying.

Perhaps one needs to define "good".
Things that seem to be bad are in many instances actually good.

To put it on a simple level: A person being laid of from work may find true happiness by venturing out and build a business of his own. Or this person may re-educate him/herself and lend a job which he/she always desired to have in the first place.

Hope this will help a bit.

Kutte

______________________________________________________________

Why AM I when there could have been no I AM?

 

[Fireinfolding]

Heres a few verses

James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Asking amiss is shown here...

James 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

Whereas Jesus says...

Luke 12:15 Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth.

Which things (there are things above and things on earth)

Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.


Perhaps spiritual gifts, the good gifts of the same Spirit, or the every good thing we have in Christ that come from above as well.

At least Jesus said ASK, and James points out that they were asking but amiss and tells them how they were asking amiss.

 

[Icansee]

Funny to notice your final sentence telling us that your prayers were of benefit to others but not to you who did the praying.

How's that? Hehe..

And it's not "funny", since I don't seem to "get" anything from God when others are praying for me. God is showing me stuff in peoples lives all the time - not like private things and sin and stuff like that, but things that typically have to do with forgiveness, bitterness etc. But when people are praying for me it feels like everything is "stuck" inside of me, and I'm TOTALLY unable to receive anything they might are told by God to "give" me, both physically, mentally and spiritually.

 

[Icansee]

Heres a few verses

James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Asking amiss is shown here...

James 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

Whereas Jesus says...

Luke 12:15 Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth.

Which things (there are things above and things on earth)

Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.


Perhaps spiritual gifts, the good gifts of the same Spirit, or the every good thing we have in Christ that come from above as well.

At least Jesus said ASK, and James points out that they were asking but amiss and tells them how they were asking amiss.

It's not like I'm asking God for stuff or anything. Things dont matter a lot to me. And the spiritual gifts He have given me.
I went to a bibleschool for 2 years, and God gave me the money I needed. I NEVER had a lot of money, but I did also never have too little. I alwas got what I needed.
This summer I really was "dreaming" of getting a car. Not an expensive one, just one that works, and a couple of months after I got one. I cant even remember to have asked God for one, but maybe I did. It cost me only $350, and it's a really good car! So thank you Jesus for that, but I would MUCH rather see people getting healed when I pray for them than have a car.. Besides, my car is just parked in the garage because I havent bothered getting license plates for it yet.

What do I have affection towards then, if not affection of the things above, i.e. supernatural healing, profecy etc?

Did I mention that I'm 28 years old and all I own in this world is a car without license plates, a bag of clothes and a broken laptop? I'm at my brothers computer when I write this..

 

[Fireinfolding]

It's not like I'm asking God for stuff or anything. Things dont matter a lot to me. And the spiritual gifts He have given me.
I went to a bibleschool for 2 years, and God gave me the money I needed. I NEVER had a lot of money, but I did also never have too little. I alwas got what I needed.
This summer I really was "dreaming" of getting a car. Not an expensive one, just one that works, and a couple of months after I got one. I cant even remember to have asked God for one, but maybe I did. It cost me only $350, and it's a really good car! So thank you Jesus for that, but I would MUCH rather see people getting healed when I pray for them than have a car.. Besides, my car is just parked in the garage because I havent bothered getting license plates for it yet.

What do I have affection towards then, if not affection of the things above, i.e. supernatural healing, profecy etc?

Did I mention that I'm 28 years old and all I own in this world is a car without license plates, a bag of clothes and a broken laptop? I'm at my brothers computer when I write this..

I certainly was not accusing anyone posting the above scriptures, I was only trying to be helpful sharing some verses.

Any of us being poor doesnt nessesarily validate where our affections lie. For example, both rich (as it speaks of the decietfulness of riches) and the poor (which encompass moreso the cares of this life) are adressed. The poor (likewise) can have a love of money in them as much as the rich could. However the one might actually have the riches, whereas the other (the poorer) might not. So in that sense (whether) "all we have" is in a bag (or in a mansion) I dont believe it can be rightly discerned that way though. God only knows the heart, See what I am saying?

So when I posted those verses it was not to condemn, I think all of us search to know, how to ask God, and for what we are to ask Him. And especially not ask amiss (when we do ask).

Which was all I was pointing out.

God bless you

 

[Icansee]

I certainly was not accusing anyone posting the above scriptures, I was only trying to be helpful sharing some verses.

Oh, I didn't think so either. I was just clearing things up since I should've written it in my first post. I saw afterwards that I had left plenty of rooom for misunderstanding.. Hehe.

Any of us being poor doesnt nessesarily validate where our affections lie. For example, both rich (as it speaks of the decietfulness of riches) and the poor (which encompass moreso the cares of this life) are adressed. The poor (likewise) can have a love of money in them as much as the rich could. However the one might actually have the riches, whereas the other (the poorer) might not. So in that sense (whether) "all we have" is in a bag (or in a mansion) I dont believe it can be rightly discerned that way though. God only knows the heart, See what I am saying?

Hehe I'm not poor, I just don't care about stuff. Besides, my Father is the richest one in the world.. lol. Jokes aside: I'm about to open my own bookstore and I work as a translator as well as running a small computer business. I'd just much rather hang out with God and profecy over people and pray for their healing and salvation than make a lot of money. As long as I've got money for food and shelter, I don't care too much.

I see what you're saying though, so that's why I'm trying to explain my heart.

So when I posted those verses it was not to condemn, I think all of us search to know, how to ask God, and for what we are to ask Him. And especially not ask amiss (when we do ask).

Which was all I was pointing out.

God bless you

I see the part about asking amiss. Good word. But I can't see how this can be the problem when I for example pray for people's healings. I do see healings quite often though, but I'd like it to be a little more consistent. My faith is really simple - I lay my hand on people and pray for them and they get healed, simply because it says so in the Bible. But then quite often (cuz I pray for a lot of people) I don't see the healings manifest. Frustrating. Isn't healing one of the good gifts?

God bless you too!

 

[dewba]

matthew 6:8
..e fathers knows what you need before you ask it

 

[Fireinfolding]

I cant say everyone I pray for receives healing either, though it says

1Cr 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

It would be nice if all did. It would sure come in handy so as to not need the bankrupt healthcare system we have presently no doubt

Though, spending all ones living on physicians and growing both worse and broke doesnt seem to be a new thing done under the sun huh?

God bless you

 

[Icansee]

I cant say everyone I pray for receives healing either, though it says

1Cr 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

It would be nice if all did. It would sure come in handy so as to not need the bankrupt healthcare system we have presently no doubt

Though, spending all ones living on physicians and growing both worse and broke doesnt seem to be a new thing done under the sun huh?

God bless you

Not to be rude or anything, but 1Cr 12:30 is more like some sort of self comfort when healings doesnt happen, imho. Almost like Phil 4:13 "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me." "My life is terrible, I have anxiety and bitterness and all kinds of crap, but no biggie - I can make it through cuz Christ makes me strong". "Jesus told us to pray for people and that they would get healed, but oh well, I guess I dont have the gift of healing"...

Mark 16, 18: "they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover". As easy as that, and no one's talking about you needing a gift of healing to do this.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Not to be rude or anything, but 1Cr 12:30 is more like some sort of self comfort when healings doesnt happen, imho. Almost like Phil 4:13 "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me." "My life is terrible, I have anxiety and bitterness and all kinds of crap, but no biggie - I can make it through cuz Christ makes me strong". "Jesus told us to pray for people and that they would get healed, but oh well, I guess I dont have the gift of healing"...

Mark 16, 18: "they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover". As easy as that, and no one's talking about you needing a gift of healing to do this.

I wouldnt take you as being rude to me over 1Cr 12:30 I didnt write it, I only copy pasted the one who wrote it

Phillip is speaking of being instructed to be in NEED as well as FULL. Through which He can do all things through Christ no doubt.

Though, even when Paul prayed about the infirmity of his own flesh three times he was answered with my grace is sufficient for thee and even here the power of Christ rested upon him (through which he could do all things) just the same. And "a spirit of infirmity" (and of Satan) is spoken of elsewhere as well, where Jesus loosed a woman from it in the gospel. However, Pauls messenger of Satan (the infirmity of the flesh He speaks of) though he asks the Lord three times for this thing to depart from his flesh is not granted.

Here he left another sick here

2Ti 4:20 Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.

I just look at everything, and try to stay objective about it.

 

[Icansee]

About Pauls infirmity - he had that so that he wouldn't become proud. You cant compare that with some random person being sick, cuz it's gotta be some kind of consistency here; you dont get a thorn in the flesh for no reason. So if you gonna use this argument when talking to a sick person I take it you're also gonna look for some insane signs and wonders following that person, yes?

 

[Fireinfolding]

About Pauls infirmity - he had that so that he wouldn't become proud. You cant compare that with some random person being sick, cuz it's gotta be some kind of consistency here; you dont get a thorn in the flesh for no reason. So if you gonna use this argument when talking to a sick person I take it you're also gonna look for some insane signs and wonders following that person, yes?

A spirit of inifirmity of Satan (in a woman) and an infirmity of his flesh (a messenger of Satan). One kept a woman from lifting herself up and in Paul from exalting himself above measure.

In both pictures, one (the woman) was kept bowed down (unable to lift herself) in the other, (Paul) from exalting himself above measure (which is also low or humble).

Why did she have a spirit of infimity of Satan? If as you says, you dont get one for any reason, she must have had one too right? Paul gave us the reason he perceived concerning himself. There must be consistency here too I would think.

Though interesting how the devils condemnation is pride, a messenger of Satan in ones flesh) is actually used to keep one low.

Im not arguing by the way, unless you have a stance (I am unaware of) and you percieve me as arguing with you while looking at scriptures together?

Paul left another sick elsewhere too right?

Why do you think he did that?

 

[Icansee]

Oh, thorn in the flesh from God, I meant. I.e. a spirit to keep you humble - that's what Paul had. Did the woman have the same thing? Did people get healed where ever she went too?

Hehe we're not arguing, we're having a conversation.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Oh, thorn in the flesh from God, I meant. I.e. a spirit to keep you humble - that's what Paul had. Did the woman have the same thing? Did people get healed where ever she went too?

Hehe we're not arguing, we're having a conversation.

Well he called it an infirmity in the flesh, she had a spirit of infirmity, in both places its noted of Satan, one a messenger of, one a spirit of (both of Satan) and in respects to an infirmity. Jesus loosed the woman but when Paul prayed that this thing depart from him, he said, my grace is sufficient for you, my power is made perfect in weakness.

However, its noted Paul left someone sick. Whether someone wants to pin that on the others faith, Pauls faith (or as is the rumor) the gifts ceasing at that time, or that Paul was a false apostle, I have no clue as to where this might be going

Where ya taking this? Any clue, or just wondering?

 

[Icansee]

I dont think you can compare the woman with Paul. Paul had the spirit of infirmity for a reason - the woman did not.

 

[Fireinfolding]

I dont think you can compare the woman with Paul. Paul had the spirit of infirmity for a reason - the woman did not.

It sure doesnt tell us there.

Maybe just for the "hell of it"?

But it cant hurt us to compare seeking to understand better, we only limit ourselves when comparing one place where a thing is made known to us (by Paul) with another place which holds a bit of obscurity for us (as in the womans case).

Though, what I thought was kool, and cant shake what I have considered, Pauls thorn was to keep him from exalting himself above measure right? It speaks elsewhere of one who exalts himself above all that is called God, and I thought... man what if the missing element is exactly what Paul was given LEST He actually did. The messenger of Satan given to keep him humble (lest he be proud) the reason for? Because of the all surpassing revelations he was given.

I honestly cant say, just considering it as they are worded similiarly. For example, what was witholding Paul from "going there" (so to speak)? And if that which was given him indeed kept him humble, what would be the outcome of removing such a thing from another? I have considered the exact opposite of results it yeilded in Paul (which was humility) or "LEST I be exalted above measure, verses who exalts himself above all that is called God and is worshipped (in that sense).

Just noticed the lifting up, and the being bowed down in a few places. But nothing solid, just considering, but thats often how (for me anyway) insight builds. I consider, then one thing leads to the next and somewhere along the line an ah ha moment comes out of it.

I just keep them in the back of my mind till that happens, I could excuse nearly everything at first glance, but I have found (experientially) in not doing that aids further insight, something I dont understand (at first) but becomes clearer as I wait on the Lord with it.

 

[twoknowhim]

Hi everyone,

I was reading this thread, and I never considered this woman before that you speak of, if you don't mind could you tell me where it is in scripture, I would like to take another look. I usually see in scripture when it talks about a woman, its symbolically speaking of the desires, or weaknesses of the flesh, or the old nature.

I guess it stems from the beginning with Adam, I see the woman Eve as Adams desires that was made manifest, and that's why the Serpent talked to her instead of Adam. Anyhow, don't know where I was going with this. lol.

If you don't mind the scripture reference, thank you.
Blessings

 

[Fireinfolding]

You could start here

Luke 13:11 And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself.

To here...

Luke 13:16... whom Satan hath bound

Hope that helps

 

[bsd31]

Both scriptures are referring to spiritual gifts. What does the Holy Spirit empower us with? Spiritual gifts. What kind of "things" does God give to us? Spiritual gifts.

(1 Corinthians 12:7-11)
Prophecy, tongues, healing, miracles, faith, word of wisdom, work of knowledge, discernment, interpretation

In Luke 11:13 it is [FONT=ARIAL,HELVETICA,SANS-SERIF]Pneuma hagion [/FONT][FONT=ARIAL,HELVETICA,SANS-SERIF]which always refers to the gifts of the spirit and not the Giver of the Gifts (the Holy Spirit)

In Matthew 7:11 "good things" = good gifts.

In context we read Jesus teaching on good and bad fruit. Biblically speaking fruit, good or bad, is an expression of spiritual gifts. Some people produce bad fruit because they use the gifts wrongly (or not at all) and some people produce good fruit because they use them in accordance with God's will.
[/FONT]