Lucifer in the Garden of Eden

[SonOfSophroniscus]

I was thinking about this the other day, the Garden of Eden being the perfect paradise. If so, why was Satan in there disguised as a snake?

 

[TruthMiner]

I was thinking about this the other day, the Garden of Eden being the perfect paradise. If so, why was Satan in there disguised as a snake?

Before the Temptation of Adam and Eve, the serpent was a "beast of the field." It was after the fall that God cursed the serpent, "On your belly you will go, And dust you will eat All the days of your life."

God created all the beasts of the field but one was more cleverly subtle than all the rest.

Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name.... Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.

 

[SonOfSophroniscus]

Stop this vapouring, and give me the knowledge you possess. Why was Lucifer in the Garden of Eden?

Before the Temptation of Adam and Eve, the serpent was a "beast of the field." It was after the fall that God cursed the serpent, "On your belly you will go, And dust you will eat All the days of your life."

God created all the beasts of the field but one was more cleverly subtle than all the rest.

Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name.... Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.

 

[TruthMiner]

Stop this vapouring, and give me the knowledge you possess. Why was Lucifer in the Garden of Eden?

There is no such being called "Lucifer." That name is a 4th century Vulgate invention.

When you stop the presumptions, there will be no need for "vapouring."

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

There's no such thing as Lucifer.

And snakes don't eat dust.

And where is it said that the Garden of Eden was a perfect paradise? That's reading our collective Judeo-Christian traditions into the text...

 

[SonOfSophroniscus]

Well then, my most excellent fellow, how do you explain the existence of Original Sin?

There is no such being called "Lucifer." That name is a 4th century Vulgate invention.

When you stop the presumptions, there will be no need for "vapouring."

 

[TruthMiner]

There's no such thing as Lucifer.

And snakes don't eat dust.

I don't think anyone presumes they literally eat dust.

But if you are crawling around on your belly all day long in the dust....

 

[SonOfSophroniscus]

Of course it is, because said texts posit the existence of the Garden. Do you think that an omnibenevolent being would create a place that was not 100% suited to Adam and Eve?

And where is it said that the Garden of Eden was a perfect paradise? That's reading our collective Judeo-Christian traditions into the text...

 

[TruthMiner]

Well then, my most excellent fellow, how do you explain the existence of Original Sin?

What original sin? An Augustinian invention perhaps?

The only "original sin" the Bible talks about is the one Adam committed. Do you mean that one?

 

[SonOfSophroniscus]

Don't know precisely, but on this line of reasoning, an omnibenevolent/perfect being created imperfect humans, capable of sin [which he can then punish them for].

What original sin? An Augustinian invention perhaps?

The only "original sin" the Bible talks about is the one Adam committed. Do you mean that one?

 

[nikolai_42]

Don't know precisely, but on this line of reasoning, an omnibenevolent/perfect being created imperfect humans, capable of sin [which he can then punish them for].

There is a difference between sin and evil. God created evil. Man sinned. Sin is rebellion against God. That's one of the consequences of freedom (whatever that entails). Man may not be absolutely free, but his freedom at least allows him to do that which is against God. That is rebellion. That is sin. God did not create that. Rebellion was first exacted by Satan - who Jesus said was a liar and a murderer from the beginning.

God set the boundaries in the garden - Satan overstepped them and enticed Adam and Eve to follow suit. Adam and Eve had dominion - even over the serpent - so their banishment was a consequence of listening to a "lower being". Satan's only dominion came when Adam and Eve gave in - submitted themselves to HIS counsel rather than God's. If they had said "no", I suspect he would still be crawling around (or doing whatever he did then) and Eden would remain as it was and Adam and Eve walking in perfect fellowship with God - at least until the next opportunity to follow the serpent arose.

 

[hosea6v6]

I was thinking about this the other day, the Garden of Eden being the perfect paradise. If so, why was Satan in there disguised as a snake?

I would love to agree with some one here, but they have not made it yet.

Remember Job? Satan could go anywhere on earth and drove Job crazy. God did not interfer. God did not interfer in the garden either.
Why was Satan there in the garden? Why not? God wants our love not mineless devotion. We are all tested like coal to become diamonds.
A time God interferred is in Gen6 when fallen angels tried to change the DNA of the human race. A human having not the DNA of Adam could not be saved and God would be made to be a lier.
Satan as you know has tried everthing to block our salvation and it is there God jerks a not in his tail.

Hosea6v6

Hosea6v6

 

[TruthMiner]

Don't know precisely, but on this line of reasoning, an omnibenevolent/perfect being created imperfect humans, capable of sin [which he can then punish them for].

Ah.

When there are 2, love requires a choice or the 2nd is not loved at all.

 

[SonOfSophroniscus]

If God wants our love and not mindless devotion, why does he condemn non-believers to the pit, why do his believers say that 'free thought is evil', why are we given set Commandments telling us how to live our lives *instead* of methods given to us telling how to love God? Why is the Christian faith pro-conformist?

I would love to agree with some one here, but they have not made it yet.

Remember Job? Satan could go anywhere on earth and drove Job crazy. God did not interfer. God did not interfer in the garden either.
Why was Satan there in the garden? Why not? God wants our love not mineless devotion. We are all tested like coal to become diamonds.
A time God interferred is in Gen6 when fallen angels tried to change the DNA of the human race. A human having not the DNA of Adam could not be saved and God would be made to be a lier.
Satan as you know has tried everthing to block our salvation and it is there God jerks a not in his tail.

Hosea6v6

Hosea6v6

 

[TruthMiner]

If God wants our love and not mindless devotion, why does he condemn non-believers to the pit,

Reference to everlasting torment? I see this nowhere in the original language of Scripture.

why do his believers say that 'free thought is evil',

It isn't evil.

They say this because they mistakenly have the idea that faith in a theological system is what it means to have faith in Christ and to entertain other ideas would be to lose faith and thus salvation. Quite the error eh?

why are we given set Commandments telling us how to live our lives *instead* of methods given to us telling how to love God?

Don't need either. We are given the Word of God, jesus Christ, who is God's Love, to dwell in us.

Why is the Christian faith pro-conformist?

To?

 

[SonOfSophroniscus]

That was rather an attack on modern Christian values.

Reference to everlasting torment? I see this nowhere in the original language of Scripture.



It isn't evil.

They say this because they mistakenly have the idea that faith in a theological system is what it means to have faith in Christ and to entertain other ideas would be to lose faith and thus salvation. Quite the error eh?



Don't need either. We are given the Word of God, jesus Christ, who is God's Love, to dwell in us.



To?

 

[ScottBot]

I was thinking about this the other day, the Garden of Eden being the perfect paradise. If so, why was Satan in there disguised as a snake?

Many people refute the notion that Satan was disguised as a snake. It says that Eve was tempted by a serpent, which in ancient terminology means dragon...the same type of dragon that Satan is refered to in Revelation. Something both dazzling and terrifying at the same time.

"Satan, that old serpent, deceiver of mankind"
[bible]genesis 3:13[/bible]
[bible]2 corinthians 11:3[/bible]
[bible]revelation 12:9[/bible]

 

[Calminian]

SonOfSophroniscus, I think further study will reveal the hebrew word for Lucifer is a description rather than a proper noun (i.e. name). There's no name in the Bible called Lucifer. This was an erroneous translation in the King James (actually it was a latin transliteration). Because of this, many believe Lucifer to be the prefallen name of Satan. Simply not true. The description in Isaiah may well be alluding to Satan's fall, but it is by no means revealing his prefallen name. Take it from someone who believed it for many years.

Also, I don't believe that the snake was Satan in disguise. Rather it was an actual literal animal that was originally created upright in posture (perhaps had legs) and with a great deal of intelligence. This is what made it such a perfect target for Satan. He is always looking for the perfect tool to incite. God allowed Satan to enter the Garden and incite the snake for the purpose of testing Adam. When Adam failed, God cursed the world and put His redemptive plan in motion. The curse included many changes to the land, the plants, animals and even humans. Hope that helps.

 

[mooduck1]

I was thinking about this the other day, the Garden of Eden being the perfect paradise. If so, why was Satan in there disguised as a snake?

The honest answer is that IMO, this story is allogorical. Trying to understand the creation stories in the Bible literally, leads to very bad theology. It's explains something that happened on a spirtual level, where in when we reached the level of evolutionary developement where we became self aware, we gained the knowledge of Good and evil (morality) and almost immediately turned our backs on God. The devil was in our spiritual garden but before we became self aware, before we had any sense of morality, he had no hold on us because we were not free to do our own will and naturally followed God's will.

If you are bent on reading this a s a literal telling, then you MUST NOT by that standard try to infer ANYTHING that is not expressly written. If we read it literally, the fall DID NOT happen becasue of anything to do with Satan but was the doing of a talking snake.

 

[repentant]

No such thing as Lucifer?