Lucifer and Satan:two differnt beings??

Michael means "Who can be like God?" It is the only Hebrew name presented in the form of a question. Look it up. This challenge is what will one day save the world.

It's quite a challenge too.

BethelArsonist said:

Michael means "Who can be like God?" It is the only Hebrew name presented in the form of a question. Look it up. This challenge is what will one day save the world.

It's quite a challenge too.

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What kind of being do you think Michael and Gabriel and others are?

Did'nt notice the poster was 13, however it would'nt have changed my reply had I noticed. He is certainly old enough to grasp the truth. I might add that the notion that satan is only in our minds/hearts as some sort of state of mind/animal impulse we need only repress/tame, is not only abject nonsense, it is in fact, a lie. He'd be very proud of anybody who'd say such a thing.
Yahuweh will not incarcerate an animal impulse/state of mind in the Abyss. He will incarcerate a very real spirit, along with all of the other spirits who rebelled with satan, as well as any person who made the deliberate, specific choice to align with and further satan's goals. These people will have made the decision to have been born of the spirit from below, satan's spirit, as opposed to choosing to be born of the spirit from above, Yahuweh's Set-apart Spirit.
To say that the spirit of satan is a result or figment of our imagination/state of mind, one would also have to say the same about Yahuweh's spirit. Both notions are a lie.
The youngster need not fear satan. It is important to be aware of his existence and potential for harmful deception.

They are spirits of messengers

But by the term "spirit," I mean "breath," not ghost. Breath is the force of life in a man, It is what drives him and substantiates his relationship to all other things in the environemnt, because breath is a part of the air which is the only thing that directly relates all Earth life together. In other words, by "spirit" I mean a form of relationship between an individual and the rest of the world, particularly as defined by the "state of mind" that characterizes it. Named spirits of scripture are defined by the actions they perform in scripture. Likewise, when the same action is performed, we can accurately say that "spirit" is present. But without meaning, (at least to me) ghost, or walking dead.

Do not be confused, however, by the fact that ghost and spirit are used interchangeable in scripture in reference to the Holy Spirit. That is just a matter of translation inconsistencies. This is why I am defining what I mean by the terms.

BethelArsonist said:

The book of Revelation is entirely symbolic entirely, no exception. And the term angel, merely means messenger

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So what is you stance on angels. The Book of Acts references angels coming to the aid of the apostles in several places. Is that symbolic?

Lokt,

Almost all prophetic scriptures are symbolic teachings, lokt, as well as Revelation. You are referring to passages of scripture that can only be taken as symbolic, unless one believes in some kind of bazzaar parallel universe where, like gnomes and fairies roam or something.

Consider the non-prophetic references, such as when Peter opposed Jesus and Jesus called him Satan. Was this Peter he was still talking to? Or did Peter need an exorcism that Jesus never did? He was pointing out that his attitude and mental position of resisting what Jesus said was "adverse" to Him. He was not attacking a ghost or demon that took him over. He was pointing out that his thinking was wrong. His state of mind was wrong.

Darceri,

I cannot think of anywhere in The book of Acts that any angels or messengers assisted apostles. Be more specific.

BethelArsonist said:

Darceri,

I cannot think of anywhere in The book of Acts that any angels or messengers assisted apostles. Be more specific.

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Well the night before Peter was to be killed by Herod. Its Act 12:6-11

6And when Herod would have brought him forth, the same night Peter was sleeping between two soldiers, bound with two chains: and the keepers before the door kept the prison.

7And, behold, the angel of the Lord came upon him, and a light shined in the prison: and he smote Peter on the side, and raised him up, saying, Arise up quickly. And his chains fell off from his hands.
8And the angel said unto him, Gird thyself, and bind on thy sandals. And so he did. And he saith unto him, Cast thy garment about thee, and follow me.
9And he went out, and followed him; and wist not that it was true which was done by the angel; but thought he saw a vision.
10When they were past the first and the second ward, they came unto the iron gate that leadeth unto the city; which opened to them of his own accord: and they went out, and passed on through one street; and forthwith the angel departed from him. 11And when Peter was come to himself, he said, Now I know of a surety, that the LORD hath sent his angel, and hath delivered me out of the hand of Herod, and from all the expectation of the people of the Jews.

This is quite funny I think what happens here in Acts 5:17:

17Then the high priest rose up, and all they that were with him, (which is the sect of the Sadducees,) and were filled with indignation,

18And laid their hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison.
19But the angel of the Lord by night opened the prison doors, and brought them forth, and said,
20Go, stand and speak in the temple to the people all the words of this life.
21And when they heard that, they entered into the temple early in the morning, and taught. But the high priest came, and they that were with him, and called the council together, and all the senate of the children of Israel, and sent to the prison to have them brought.
22But when the officers came, and found them not in the prison, they returned and told,
23Saying, The prison truly found we shut with all safety, and the keepers standing without before the doors: but when we had opened, we found no man within.
24Now when the high priest and the captain of the temple and the chief priests heard these things, they doubted of them whereunto this would grow. 25Then came one and told them, saying, Behold, the men whom ye put in prison are standing in the temple, and teaching the people.

Okay, I assume you are thinking this messenger (the definition of the term, angel) may have been some kind of super-man like creature , rather than human. Am I following you?

If he were all powerful, though, why does he tell Peter to get up quickly? They might get caught?

No matter what a person makes of his passage, it does not change the definition of the term, angel. And I agree that it may be easy to associate this scenario with some sort of mythical-like all powerful creature, and all the more so if someone has had some exposure to medieval concepts and imagery of Christian mythology.

Personally, I have always left such things to the imagination of others.

This really is important in that many of God’s people believe that somehow Satan has enough power or what ever you want to call it to deceive God. I believe he is the great deceiver of men; but Satan was a liar and a murderer from the beginning. (beginning means beginning of source.)

It is only the KJV that uses the word Lucifer.

Bethelarsonist said, "Almost all prophetic scriptures are symbolic teachings"

By symbolic, do you mean these events don't actually occur? If so, which are symbolic, which are not, and what is your criteria for making the determination.

Peter's "state of mind" did not come out of the clear blue. Satan had beguiled Peter.

"The time came for the Messiah Yahushua to show (deiknuo - to expose by providing evidence and proof to) His disciples that it was necessary and beneficial (dei) to go to Hierosoluma (a Greek transliteration of the city now called Jerusalem) to suffer much and often from the Presbyteros (Elders who were politicized religious leaders), the Archiereus (High Priests who were rabbis at the top of a hierarchal religious system), and the Grammateus (writers and public servants [read journalists, judges, and politicians]), and to be killed and then arise on the third day. Petros took Him by the hand to lead Him aside (proslambano) and began to rule over Him (archo), chiding, rebuking, and censuring Him (epitimao - admonishing Him sharply, denouncing Him and expressing his strong disapproval), saying to thine own self be merciful, cheerful and happy (hileos soi) sir. This must never, never (ou me) happen (eimi - come to be). But He turned around and said to Petros, ‘Withdraw your presence (hypago) and get behind Me Satanas/Adversary. You are an impediment and a trap (skandalon - a snare which serves as a trigger for a ambush; a rock which causes someone to stumble and fall; an obstacle in opposition and an offense) to Me because you don’t understand, don’t regard, and haven’t the right attitude toward (phroneo - you’re not directing your mind to contemplate) the things of TS (placeholder for ‘Elohiym). On the contrary (allah - in opposition in a transition to the antithesis) you regard the things of man (anthropos).’" (Matthew 16:21-23).

Peter had not beguiled himself. Peter was impetuous and prone to error. This gave Satan a foothold.
There is nothing in scrip that indicated Peter needed to be exorcised or that he was possessed. Although he was apparently influenced, at least at that moment, as well as when he denied 3 times and tried to murder the high priest's servant.
Peter was influenced/beguiled by a very real extant being/spirit.
Again as I mentioned, a "state of mind" will not be incarcerated in the Abyss. A very real extant being will be incarcerated in the abyss.

BethelArsonist said:

Okay, I assume you are thinking this messenger (the definition of the term, angel) may have been some kind of super-man like creature , rather than human. Am I following you?

If he were all powerful, though, why does he tell Peter to get up quickly? They might get caught?

No matter what a person makes of his passage, it does not change the definition of the term, angel. And I agree that it may be easy to associate this scenario with some sort of mythical-like all powerful creature, and all the more so if someone has had some exposure to medieval concepts and imagery of Christian mythology.

Personally, I have always left such things to the imagination of others.

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Hmmm.... I really haven't seen a rebuttal to suggest that this isn't an angel. Your response is pretty feeble and leaves me to believe that you are pretty close minded to anything that can be spiritual.

Darceri, I have defined exactly what I mean by use of the terms, spirit and angel. The definition of spirit I am using also explains my understanding of the term, spiritual - as being of a general type of character or function. This contrasts with things physical as relating to things of a specific being or form. So to be "spiritual," at least to me, with regards to the use of scripture, means being able to translate from the literal to the general (as it would be of the same character in a different paradigm or application) Please re-read what I have posted if you wish and allow me to refrain from being redundant here.

Lokt, I appreciate your thorough posting, but I do not follow your conclusion. read it again. There are only two people standing there. Where do you get a third one?

GOD is a SPIRIT
And CREATOR OF EVERYTHING ELSE.
The hightest form is the spirit being.
All angels are spirits.They have different bodies to dwell in
All demons are spirits
All mankind is spirits.we are dwelling in flesh ,a short time
A spirit has no form we can see.WE do not see our spirit.But,it is the main part of us!
We battle spirits.fallen angels ,called demons led by satan
1/3 of them came from heaven .kicked out because of sin
GOD has 2/3 of the angels left in heavven who obeyed the LORD.They are now used as messagers and to help us in this life!
I met two in my life time!
one bought me $10.00 once after I prayed.Another waned me or was telling me about death . Before I was overdosed in the hospital.
Angels are our brothers .They love us and watch our lifes and the things we do.They rejoice when a person is BORN AGAIN.
Many spirits fallen angels and GOD BLESSED Angels are walking around us all the time.We do not see them normally.
When we feel fear?demons are about.
now dogs and little kids i believe see these spirits.Ever see a baby looking up and smiling and talking .I think they talk with angels.I have watch my kids many times whem babies have a great time with someone i could not see!
we have power over demons and they know it!
Our power is in the name of JESUS CHRIST.HIS name which we are allowed to use.brings healing and life and even death .
We use it to cast our demons also.
demons put thoughts in our minds as does the LORd.we decide which thoughts we will live,
We can ?tell the evil spirit to get out and take you dumb thought with you in the name of JESUS CHRIST .they MUST GO.

Ben12 said:

This really is important in that many of God’s people believe that somehow Satan has enough power or what ever you want to call it to deceive God. I believe he is the great deceiver of men; but Satan was a liar and a murderer from the beginning. (beginning means beginning of source.)

It is only the KJV that uses the word Lucifer.

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I believe the word "Satan" is just an adversary.

For example in revelation it shows the Adversary/Satan being loosed in verse 7 but it is the "Devil" being thrown into the fire.

In my humble view, The Devil is representative of of those that persecute the Saints in Christ, who would also be an "Adverary" to the Devil. Thoughts?

Reve 20:7 And whenever should be being finished the thousand years, shall be being loosed The/o <3588> Adversary/Satan/satanaV <4567> out of the prison of him....................

10 And The/o <3588> Devil/Thru-Caster/dia-boloV <1228>, the one deceiving them was cast into the lake of the fire and of sulfur, the where also the wild beast and the false prophet and they shall be being tormented of day and of night into the ages of the ages.

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober!, be vigilant!, because your opponent/anti-dikoV <476>, [a] Devil/dia-boloV <1228>, as a roaring lion, doth walk about, seeking whom he may swallow up,

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satan was once a great and mighty angel of GOD!
He has changed into a vile evil creature!
he is smart,but evil smart.
he puts evil thougts in men and controls many.some people are taken over by demons,where they no longer have any control over themself.others are tortured night and day.with evil thought after evil thought.the demon hoping they will give way.they want to destory all of mankind
They cannot hurt GOD,so they attack those GOD LOVES,mankind.
some willingly follow these vile creatures!
not understanding they hate them and use them and mock them .these people without a miracle go to hel;l and burn and suffer greatly!
even christain are under attack always.they do everything to keep us from the truth.The truth sets us free .it also will give us the knowledge to live a more than conquerors life .To make us true overcomers and allow GOD to live though us!
We see?what just 12 men born of GOD could do.in the begining of the church.Now the church claims millions.yet we cannot conqueror even our cities.Many not there own household?
The problem is not the church .it is perfect and spotless!
The problem is us?We have litened to men or women who were either not BORN OF GOD.Or were babies in the there spirits!
We lack the UNDERSTANDING of the LIVING WORD!
Other wise?
We would be seeing the signs and wonders in our lifes and in those around us!
The KINGDOM of GOD is POWER.Not failure or weakness!
We are part of the KINGDOM ,now !If born of GOD !
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

1Co 4:20 For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.

Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

This seemed interesting:

Lucifer
(Hebrew helel; Septuagint heosphoros, Vulgate lucifer)
The name Lucifer originally denotes the planet Venus, emphasizing its brilliance. The Vulgate employs the word also for "the light of the morning" (Job 11:17), "the signs of the zodiac" (Job 38:32), and "the aurora" (Psalm 109:3). Metaphorically, the word is applied to the King of Babylon (Isaiah 14:12) as preeminent among the princes of his time; to the high priest Simon son of Onias (Ecclesiasticus 50:6), for his surpassing virtue, to the glory of heaven (Apocalypse 2:28), by reason of its excellency; finally to Jesus Christ himself (2 Peter 1:19; Apocalypse 22:16; the "Exultet" of Holy Saturday) the true light of our spiritual life.
The Syriac version and the version of Aquila derive the Hebrew noun helel from the verb yalal, "to lament"; St. Jerome agrees with them (In Isaiah 1:14), and makes Lucifer the name of the principal fallen angel who must lament the loss of his original glory bright as the morning star. In Christian tradition this meaning of Lucifer has prevailed; the Fathers maintain that Lucifer is not the proper name of the devil, but denotes only the state from which he has fallen (Petavius, De Angelis, III, iii, 4).

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found here: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09410a.htm
tulc(loves New Advent!)

Any views on my post # 36? Thanks.

I agree, the opponent(s) of the "Devil" (and any and all of a state of mind adverse to them) would be the apostles, and "a Satan" to them, just as Peter was at one point to Jesus.

Your last quote even describes Peter's adversar(ies) as a roaring lion. If we are to assume Satan or the Devil is a living ghost of some kind, we might just as well jump off this verse and think of him as a lion.

But both ideas transfer the accountability of a man for his own actions - in denying his own carnal, adversarial nature - to some imaginary entity instead. This is what this immature traditional doctrine does, it allows people to say "The Devil made me do it." This has always proved to be a profitable point of doctrine for the church, however, because people want some "ghost" to blame, and they want preachers to help them do that.

Moreover, without such an imaginary entity to blame , preachers would have to look around at the real world and explain with truth about why and how evil work it's way out of the hearts of men through the operations of society and into positions of political power. No preacher in recent times has been able to make a living telling people things like that. Lies are a much more profitable business, and nobody gets fingered for their abuses of power in the world. The preachers, thereby, become confederate with the very "Devil" himself. They sell them their own soul for a cheap thrill of authority and prestige and power over the ignorant faithful.

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