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Loving others by forsaking the use of litmus tests

GandalfTheWise

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In my life, there have been certain epiphanies and transformations that have had a night and day difference in how I love others. One of these things was purposing in my heart not to use litmus tests to determine someone's spiritual standing before God. Each person is a complicated creation of God that cannot be known in any meaningful manner without taking time to get to know them. There is no way to bypass this process by asking a few standard questions on particular issues.

What is a litmus test? It is any question or issue which I might use to determine if someone is "for" me or "against" me or my "groups" or if they are spiritually "safe" to be around. Things such as, do you speak in tongues?, do you believe in eternal security?, what denomination are you?, are you liberal or conservative?, did you vote for Trump?,would you attend a gay wedding?, what is your stand on biblical inerrancy?, what color is your skin? and the like.

It was a thread on Facebook yesterday about Eugene Peterson that reminded me of the bondage that litmus tests bring to all who are touched and corrupted by them. With a single question and a single answer and an attempt to clarify that answer, many honest sincere Christians now reject him. In the same thread spaced only a few entries apart, I saw conservative Christians decrying his liberalism and in essence promoting a boycott of anything he had ever written alongside liberal Christians decrying his having gone back and rejected gays and siding with haters and in essence promoting a boycott of anything he had written. A single litmus test that was broadcast to the world to bolster a meaningless tally of "who is on our side" has resulted in many Christians deciding to reject him as unworthy of any support. It was like the man, his ministry, his feelings, and anything to do with him was little more than a pawn on a giant chessboard. A single litmus test reduced him from a human being with dignity to some object to be discarded because it was too impure to touch anymore.

Here are copies of my two posts on that thread.

It seems like every group has yes/no litmus tests that determine if someone is a "bad" person or not. Answer "incorrectly" or attempt to nuance an answer and you are often assumed to be and treated as the enemy. It seems it used to be that this largely involved shunning or ignoring such a person, having as little to do with them as possible, or even agreeing to disagree. It has now seemed to have turned into hurting and punishing them to the full extent possible to make them examples and force conversions. I see this going both directions. Until we all shout down *everyone* who uses and applies litmus tests on a single issue to determine if people are "good" or "bad", these tests will continue to exist and flourish and amplify differences. But, I'm guessing that will never happen because we all love our litmus tests too much because they make it so easy to determine if someone is on our side or not. Besides, "my" litmus test is reasonable and fits what is right and "yours" is biased and wrong.

After someone basically said, "he brought it on himself." I then put up a second post.

To lay the entirety of someone's spiritual walk and social standing and whether we are going to sue them or boycott them based on a single answer to questions like "would you perform a gay wedding" or "would you bake a cake for a gay wedding" is not good in my opinion. On the one side, it turns spirituality into legalism. On the other side, it turns "we are good loving people" into "cross us and we will destroy you" avengers. I dodge giving my opinions on same-sex issues. Why? Not because I don't have strong opinions. But because the current obsession with litmus tests means that it closes doors for relationships I could build with people. My primary goal is not to stop sin as I understand it to be. My primary goal is to help people grow spiritually. The gospel is basically that spiritual growth is what leads to lack of sin, not setting and enforcing a bunch of rules. Much of what people choose to fight over are symptoms of problems; not the main problems themselves. I choose to choose which battles I will engage in so that I can have a real impact in someone's life; not just a momentary sense of satisfaction of being right. As much as possible, I do not let others choose these battles for me. Try to corner me with litmus test questions and you'll usually get this lecture on litmus tests. If I give my opinion on whether gay marriage is right or not, so what? It won't convince many people one way or the other. But if I say yea, many people would ignore whatever else I say. If I say nay, many people would ignore whatever else I say. I believe that helping people grow spiritually and getting to know me will bring them around to my point of view much more effectively that saying yes or no to some questions. I just think we should all be complaining about the effect of litmus tests rather than saying, "ha.ha. that person fell into it and now we know whether they are a good person or not." A single question, a single answer. Some conservatives will never trust Eugene Peterson again. A single question, some hemming and hawing. Some liberals will never trust Eugene Peterson again. Is the most serious matter here the interpretation of scripture on sexual matters and having the right view of it? Or is the most serious matter how easy it is to damage anyone's ministry to so many people in a few seconds?

End of FB post.

Anyway, this was a paradigm shift I went through quite awhile ago. I used to be a die-hard seeker of Truth meaning that I wanted to understand everything about Christianity perfectly so I'd believe the right things. I then realized that knowing God Himself was much more important than knowing *about* God. I also then realized that seeing God work in my life and other peoples' lives was much more important than how I *explained* what He was doing.

Over the years, I have found that my opinions and words have much more impact on people when they are backed up by actions and love. I cannot do this without building relationships. There are some relationships I cannot build if I apply litmus tests to them or allow litmus tests to be applied to me.

Thoughts? Experiences?
 

Hidden In Him

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In my life, there have been certain epiphanies and transformations that have had a night and day difference in how I love others. One of these things was purposing in my heart not to use litmus tests to determine someone's spiritual standing before God. Each person is a complicated creation of God that cannot be known in any meaningful manner without taking time to get to know them. There is no way to bypass this process by asking a few standard questions on particular issues.

I absolutely agree with this post, and I believe this is yet another witness to the fact that you are smarter than the average bear, Gandalf.

The problem arises because people are often so insecure in their own beliefs that they feel the need to pigeonhole people with litmus tests as you call them so they can conveniently eliminate out anyone who is obviously "spiritually dangerous." I'm not sure when I had my epiphany, but I believe it started back when I began realizing that everyone was teaching untruths and misinterpretations of some sort, so what we needed was more compassion and understanding for one another, not more heresy hunting. Since that time, I no longer close my ears to listening to anyone spiritually as I once did. And I find that now even the dimmest lights in all of Christendom can still come up with a zinger now and then if you keep giving them a chance; even those from denominations I would assume have long since departed from the truth can stun me with surprising insights into certain truths.

I now see things the same way you do. ALL people, even those who might be ugly towards me or vehemently disagree with me on certain issues, can still have great value spiritually if I can look past the resentments and/or the preconceived notions I developed about them based merely on one or two issues.

This is the healthy way to view brothers and sisters in Christ, and it is a way that God blesses (i.e. seeing the best in people, by not judging them quickly and superficially). When you can see the best in others, you are "always hoping, always trusting" (1 Corinthians 13:4-7), and such a heart leads you to ever be working towards the unity of the faith and the building up of the body of Christ, rather than its tearing down.

Thanks for your post. It is very well thought out and presented.
 
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GandalfTheWise

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And I find that now even the dimmest lights in all of Christendom can still come up with a zinger now and then if you keep giving them a chance; even those from denominations I would assume have long since departed from the truth can stun me with surprising insights into certain truths.

I like the way you phrased this. :)
 
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Hidden In Him

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I like the way you phrased this. :)

It's true. :)

There are some preachers I've listened to for almost a decade or more on radio, mostly because there was nothing better to listen to while working. Every time I'd hear one come on, it'd be like, "Oh, God. Here comes brother So-and-So. Lord give me strength."

And then once in a blue moon, LO AND BEHOLD! The guy would come across with this amazing thing that was not only accurate but ministered to my life at the time. I'd sit there thinking, "Dear Heavens. Record the date! Brother So-and-So just rang the bell!" Ha ha!

Praise God for brother So-and-So. :oldthumbsup:
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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[QUOTE="GandalfTheWise, post: 71510905, member: 308685”] My primary goal is not to stop sin as I understand it to be. My primary goal is to help people grow spiritually. The gospel is basically that spiritual growth is what leads to lack of sin, not setting and enforcing a bunch of rules. Much of what people choose to fight over are symptoms of problems; not the main problems themselves. [/QUOTE]

5 yrs later and not much has changed.
 
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SeventhFisherofMen

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In my life, there have been certain epiphanies and transformations that have had a night and day difference in how I love others. One of these things was purposing in my heart not to use litmus tests to determine someone's spiritual standing before God. Each person is a complicated creation of God that cannot be known in any meaningful manner without taking time to get to know them. There is no way to bypass this process by asking a few standard questions on particular issues.

What is a litmus test? It is any question or issue which I might use to determine if someone is "for" me or "against" me or my "groups" or if they are spiritually "safe" to be around. Things such as, do you speak in tongues?, do you believe in eternal security?, what denomination are you?, are you liberal or conservative?, did you vote for Trump?,would you attend a gay wedding?, what is your stand on biblical inerrancy?, what color is your skin? and the like.

It was a thread on Facebook yesterday about Eugene Peterson that reminded me of the bondage that litmus tests bring to all who are touched and corrupted by them. With a single question and a single answer and an attempt to clarify that answer, many honest sincere Christians now reject him. In the same thread spaced only a few entries apart, I saw conservative Christians decrying his liberalism and in essence promoting a boycott of anything he had ever written alongside liberal Christians decrying his having gone back and rejected gays and siding with haters and in essence promoting a boycott of anything he had written. A single litmus test that was broadcast to the world to bolster a meaningless tally of "who is on our side" has resulted in many Christians deciding to reject him as unworthy of any support. It was like the man, his ministry, his feelings, and anything to do with him was little more than a pawn on a giant chessboard. A single litmus test reduced him from a human being with dignity to some object to be discarded because it was too impure to touch anymore.

Here are copies of my two posts on that thread.

It seems like every group has yes/no litmus tests that determine if someone is a "bad" person or not. Answer "incorrectly" or attempt to nuance an answer and you are often assumed to be and treated as the enemy. It seems it used to be that this largely involved shunning or ignoring such a person, having as little to do with them as possible, or even agreeing to disagree. It has now seemed to have turned into hurting and punishing them to the full extent possible to make them examples and force conversions. I see this going both directions. Until we all shout down *everyone* who uses and applies litmus tests on a single issue to determine if people are "good" or "bad", these tests will continue to exist and flourish and amplify differences. But, I'm guessing that will never happen because we all love our litmus tests too much because they make it so easy to determine if someone is on our side or not. Besides, "my" litmus test is reasonable and fits what is right and "yours" is biased and wrong.

After someone basically said, "he brought it on himself." I then put up a second post.

To lay the entirety of someone's spiritual walk and social standing and whether we are going to sue them or boycott them based on a single answer to questions like "would you perform a gay wedding" or "would you bake a cake for a gay wedding" is not good in my opinion. On the one side, it turns spirituality into legalism. On the other side, it turns "we are good loving people" into "cross us and we will destroy you" avengers. I dodge giving my opinions on same-sex issues. Why? Not because I don't have strong opinions. But because the current obsession with litmus tests means that it closes doors for relationships I could build with people. My primary goal is not to stop sin as I understand it to be. My primary goal is to help people grow spiritually. The gospel is basically that spiritual growth is what leads to lack of sin, not setting and enforcing a bunch of rules. Much of what people choose to fight over are symptoms of problems; not the main problems themselves. I choose to choose which battles I will engage in so that I can have a real impact in someone's life; not just a momentary sense of satisfaction of being right. As much as possible, I do not let others choose these battles for me. Try to corner me with litmus test questions and you'll usually get this lecture on litmus tests. If I give my opinion on whether gay marriage is right or not, so what? It won't convince many people one way or the other. But if I say yea, many people would ignore whatever else I say. If I say nay, many people would ignore whatever else I say. I believe that helping people grow spiritually and getting to know me will bring them around to my point of view much more effectively that saying yes or no to some questions. I just think we should all be complaining about the effect of litmus tests rather than saying, "ha.ha. that person fell into it and now we know whether they are a good person or not." A single question, a single answer. Some conservatives will never trust Eugene Peterson again. A single question, some hemming and hawing. Some liberals will never trust Eugene Peterson again. Is the most serious matter here the interpretation of scripture on sexual matters and having the right view of it? Or is the most serious matter how easy it is to damage anyone's ministry to so many people in a few seconds?

End of FB post.

Anyway, this was a paradigm shift I went through quite awhile ago. I used to be a die-hard seeker of Truth meaning that I wanted to understand everything about Christianity perfectly so I'd believe the right things. I then realized that knowing God Himself was much more important than knowing *about* God. I also then realized that seeing God work in my life and other peoples' lives was much more important than how I *explained* what He was doing.

Over the years, I have found that my opinions and words have much more impact on people when they are backed up by actions and love. I cannot do this without building relationships. There are some relationships I cannot build if I apply litmus tests to them or allow litmus tests to be applied to me.

Thoughts? Experiences?
Its interesting I was talking to my wife about this the other day. Among litmus tests you mentioned the question of "what denomination are you" and Ive been asked that by so many believers all throughout my life and it always set me aback and I never knew why until now: they're seeing how they feel about me as a believer, if I am 'on their side' as you put it. It did always annoy me and now I know why. Sad.

Thank you for sharing this it was very introspective.
 
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bluegot

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Wonderful and thoughtful post! What a refreshing way to look at this issue. It is so true, we are conditioned to judge people by litmus tests. It is something I have been guilty of in my life and something that just recently, I realized about myself and have been trying to work on.
 
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aiki

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One of these things was purposing in my heart not to use litmus tests to determine someone's spiritual standing before God. Each person is a complicated creation of God that cannot be known in any meaningful manner without taking time to get to know them. There is no way to bypass this process by asking a few standard questions on particular issues.

Don't we see what you would call "litmus tests" in Scripture? Here are some examples:

Galatians 1:6-9
6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!


1 Timothy 6:3-5
3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof comes envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw yourself.


Romans 16:17
17 Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them.


What is a litmus test? It is any question or issue which I might use to determine if someone is "for" me or "against" me or my "groups" or if they are spiritually "safe" to be around.

What about the truth? Do you have "litmus tests" for who is a person of the truth and who isn't - especially if they claim to be speaking/teaching it?

Paul seemed to think it was damaging to be around certain people. See above. Also:

2 Corinthians 6:14-18
14 Be not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship has righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion has light with darkness?
15 And what concord has Christ with Belial? or what part has he who believes with an infidel?
16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? for you are the temple of the living God; as God has said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be separate, says the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18 And will be a Father unto you, and you shall be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty.


Things such as, do you speak in tongues?, do you believe in eternal security?, what denomination are you?, are you liberal or conservative?, did you vote for Trump?,would you attend a gay wedding?, what is your stand on biblical inerrancy?, what color is your skin? and the like.

It seems to me you've mixed in the trivial with things that are not. A denominational affiliation is fairly inconsequential, I think. Certainly not as significant as whether or not one would give tacit approval to homosexuality by attending a homosexual wedding. God's word says nothing on the matter of denominations, but about homosexuality it is clear and repeated in its condemnation. (Leviticus 18:22; Leviticus 20:13; Romans 1:18-28; 1 Corinthians 6:9; Jude 1:7)

There are certainly illegitimate "litmus tests" which you list above, but this doesn't mean all such tests are illegitimate. Scripture appears to command them, in fact.

It was a thread on Facebook yesterday about Eugene Peterson that reminded me of the bondage that litmus tests bring to all who are touched and corrupted by them. With a single question and a single answer and an attempt to clarify that answer, many honest sincere Christians now reject him. In the same thread spaced only a few entries apart, I saw conservative Christians decrying his liberalism and in essence promoting a boycott of anything he had ever written alongside liberal Christians decrying his having gone back and rejected gays and siding with haters and in essence promoting a boycott of anything he had written. A single litmus test that was broadcast to the world to bolster a meaningless tally of "who is on our side" has resulted in many Christians deciding to reject him as unworthy of any support. It was like the man, his ministry, his feelings, and anything to do with him was little more than a pawn on a giant chessboard. A single litmus test reduced him from a human being with dignity to some object to be discarded because it was too impure to touch anymore.

Don't you stand in a third group, condemning the liberal and conservative "litmus-centric" camps, applying a standard of your own to both, which is the avoidance of "litmus tests"?

Until we all shout down *everyone* who uses and applies litmus tests on a single issue to determine if people are "good" or "bad", these tests will continue to exist and flourish and amplify differences. But, I'm guessing that will never happen because we all love our litmus tests too much because they make it so easy to determine if someone is on our side or not.

You would actually "shout down" those with whom you disagree, if you could? Yikes. How are you different, then, at bottom, from those who are equally as determined to force their own view on others through "litmus tests"?

Sometimes the difference between good and bad, right and wrong, is a simple "yes" or "no" answer.

1 John 4:1-6
1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;
3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.
4 You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world.
5 They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them.
6 We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.


Did the apostle John not understand the great evil of litmus tests like these? Or are you maybe going too far, throwing out the baby with bathwater, by deriding all standards of association?

My primary goal is not to stop sin as I understand it to be. My primary goal is to help people grow spiritually. The gospel is basically that spiritual growth is what leads to lack of sin, not setting and enforcing a bunch of rules.

Why, then, is the Bible rife with rules? Why does every contributor to the NT issue commands of some sort to their readers?

Much of what people choose to fight over are symptoms of problems; not the main problems themselves.

Sometimes, yes, but not always.

I choose to choose which battles I will engage in so that I can have a real impact in someone's life; not just a momentary sense of satisfaction of being right.

Is this what you think motivated Paul and John in writing what they did in the passages above? Were they just wanting a momentary sense of being right? Do all those who say, "This far and no farther," morally and in defense of the truth simply want nothing more than to win an argument? Or could there actually be people who use "litmus tests" for legitimate reasons and from God-honoring motives?

If I give my opinion on whether gay marriage is right or not, so what? It won't convince many people one way or the other.

This isn't the reason one should defend what they know is true and right - as you are attempting to do in your post.

Is the most serious matter here the interpretation of scripture on sexual matters and having the right view of it? Or is the most serious matter how easy it is to damage anyone's ministry to so many people in a few seconds?

Does it have to be one or the other? Can't both things be equally serious? This looks like a false dichotomy to me...

Anyway, this was a paradigm shift I went through quite awhile ago. I used to be a die-hard seeker of Truth meaning that I wanted to understand everything about Christianity perfectly so I'd believe the right things. I then realized that knowing God Himself was much more important than knowing *about* God.

These two ways of knowing God aren't mutually-exclusive things. They haven't been in my experience, anyway. How does one even know there is a God with whom one can relate but for the knowledge about Him we encounter in Scripture? I don't think you can get to a direct, personal knowledge of God apart from the knowledge about Him found in the Bible. In fact, I think many believers have conjured up their own God, one made in their own image, essentially, precisely because they have little to no knowledge of the facts concerning God laid out in His word.

Over the years, I have found that my opinions and words have much more impact on people when they are backed up by actions and love. I cannot do this without building relationships. There are some relationships I cannot build if I apply litmus tests to them or allow litmus tests to be applied to me.

You do know that God doesn't need you to build relationships with folks in order to accomplish His will in their lives, right? It is Him, His power, that is crucial, not our willingness and capacity for relationship-building. When we start thinking we must build relationships, we can get to thinking we are what is important. But if you and I disappeared in the next instant, all that God intends to accomplish in the lives of those with whom we've built relationships He will still accomplish. We need Him but He doesn't need us. So, I'd be very careful about sidelining standards for relating for the sake of connecting relationally to others. As the Scripture I offered indicates, such standards were important and common within the Early Church. Those standards haven't been dissolved by the mere passage of time and evolution of culture.
 
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bèlla

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Fanaticism is an angry cesspool and best avoided. You can't be swayed by the trappings from unless something within testifies to their rhetoric. I make no distinction between Christian, political, or other fanatics. They're all loopy.

~bella
 
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aiki

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Fanaticism is an angry cesspool and best avoided. You can't be swayed by the trappings from unless something within testifies to their rhetoric. I make no distinction between Christian, political, or other fanatics. They're all loopy.

Are you fanatical about this perspective? What is a "fanatic" in your view? "Angry cesspool," "trappings," "rhetoric" and "loopy" seem to indicate a serious antagonism toward fanatics on your part that is akin to the very characteristics in them you've condemned. You've used unpleasant rhetoric here to condemn fanatics; your terms of description are hardly irenic and gracious but seem to me to be rather angry; you set yourself in contrast to fanatics, indicating your superiority to them in doing so. Aren't these all things that are typical of the fanatic?
 
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bèlla

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Are you fanatical about this perspective? What is a "fanatic" in your view?

Fanatical. Wasting precious moments sparring with someone who'll never listen. Didn't ask your opinion. And will never change their mind based on your feedback. They couldn't care one whit and you know it. But you love being heard.

To each his own.

~bella
 
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