Loving, Caring, Giving, Sharing

[JohnR7]

To be a Christian, means to follow the teaching of Christ. To be His disciple. The one thing He taught was non violence. That we are not only to love one another, but even we are to love our enemy in the hope that we can bring them to repentance.

John 15:12 "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.

John 13:35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

Now we need to look into the research that science has done on this. For one, there is the study that shows that people who are giving people, live longer.

http://www.seniors.gov/articles/1102/generosity.htm

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2002-11/uom-pwg111202.php

Also, there have been studies to show that prayer is effective.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/prayer.html


 


 

 

[Late_Cretaceous]

Didn't Jesus also say that he came "not to bring peace, but to bring an sword"?

 

[JohnR7]

Originally posted by Late_Cretaceous
Didn't Jesus also say that he came "not to bring peace, but to bring an sword"?

Matthew 10:34-39
    "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. [35] For I have come to 'set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law'; [36] and 'a man's enemies will be those of his own household.' [37] He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.

What are you suggesting that as a Christian I am to use a sword to kill my my mother and father? No of course not. Jesus said to put Him first. You can not allow your family to hold you back or hinder you from following Him & being His disciple.

Of course at the time these words were spoken, to follow Jesus could mean to be thrown out of the temple. It could mean your family would have nothing to do with you.


 

 

[Jerry Smith]

To be a Buddhist, means to follow the teaching of Buddha. To be His disciple. The one thing He taught was compassion. That we are not only to love one another, but even we are to love our enemy in the hope that they can know the dhamma.

A family is a place where a mind lives with other minds. If these minds love each other the home will be as beautiful as a flower garden. - teachings and sayings of Buddha

On the journey of life faith is nourishment, virtuous deeds are a shelter, wisdom is its light by day and right mindfulness is its protection by night. If a man lives a pure life nothing can destroy him: if he has conquered greed nothing can limit his freedom. - teachings and sayings of Buddha

The Way of Bodhisattva

May I be a medicine for the sick and weary, nursing them until their afflictions are gone forever. I would be a protector of the helpless, a guide for travelers and their means for crossing a stream, a lamp for those who need a lamp, a bed for those who need a bed, a slave for those who need a slave. May all find happiness through my actions and let no one suffer because of me. Whether they love or hate me, may those feelings be the source of their fulfillment. Those who mock, accuse or wrong me; may they all attain enlightenment.

Now we need to look into the research that science has done on this. For one, there is the study that shows that people who are giving people, live longer.

http://www.seniors.gov/articles/1102/generosity.htm

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_relea...m-pwg111202.php

Also, there have been studies to show that prayer is effective.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/prayer.html

 

[Chuck_Darwin]

If I recall the bible also says to pray in a closet.... I wish more of the ministers would do that instead of grandstanding.

 

[lucaspa]

Originally posted by JohnR7
Also, there have been studies to show that prayer is effective.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/prayer.html  

Yes, studies show intercessory prayer is effective. But your site claims:

"What scientific evidence do we have that God exists? A crucial doctrine of Christianity is that God listens to and answers prayers. So why not test this doctrine scientifically, using a double-blind, clinical trial? This is the exact premise that two groups of cardiac doctors used in double-blind "drug" studies of the efficacy of Christian prayer on healing. Both papers are available online."

Now, what your site has done is try to bring "God" in by the backdoor.  It ties the testable statement "does intercessory prayer have an effect" to the untested and untestable statement "God answers prayers".  If the guys who put up the site would have actually read the papers, they would have come acrosss this in the Harris et al. paper.  Kind of falsifies the claim for "scientific evidence on the existence of God" doesn't it?

"Neither this study nor that of Byrd provided any mechanistic explanation for the possible benefits of intercessory prayer. However, others have speculated as to what they might be10; they generally fall into 2 broad categories: natural or supernatural explanations. The former explanation would attribute the beneficial effects of intercessory prayer to "real" but currently unknown physical forces that are "generated" by the intercessors and "received" by the patients; the latter explanation would be, by definition, beyond the ken of science. However, this trial was designed to explore not a mechanism but a phenomenon. Clearly, proof of the latter must precede exploration of the former. By analogy, when James Lind, by clinical trial, determined that lemons and limes cured scurvy aboard the HMS Salisbury in 1753, he not only did not know about ascorbic acid, he did not even understand the concept of a "nutrient." There was a natural explanation for his findings that would be clarified centuries later, but his inability to articulate it did not invalidate his observations.

Although we cannot know why we obtained the results we did, we can comment on what our data do not show. For example, we have not proven that God answers prayer or that God even exists. It was intercessory prayer, not the existence of God, that was tested here."

 

[lucaspa]

Originally posted by JohnR7
For one, there is the study that shows that people who are giving people, live longer.

http://www.seniors.gov/articles/1102/generosity.htm

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2002-11/uom-pwg111202.php 

 

I have to wonder if you actually read the sites you post.  For instance, the second site has this in it that doesn't back your theological hypothesis.  In fact, it explains the results not on theology but by the theory of evolution.

"Receiving help from others was not linked to a reduced risk of mortality, however. "If giving, rather than receiving, promotes longevity, then interventions that are designed to help people feel supported may need to be redesigned so the emphasis is on what people can do to help others," said Brown. "In other words, these findings suggest that it isn't what we get from relationships that makes contact with others so beneficial; it's what we give."

The results, she notes, are consistent with the possibility that the benefits of social contact are shaped, in part, by the evolutionary advantages of helping others. "Older adults may still be able to increase their fitness (defined as the reproductive success of individuals who share their genes) by becoming motivated to stay alive and prolonging the amount of time they can contribute to family members," she noted. "Of course, this possibility relies on the assumption that a motivation for self-preservation can influence mortality. And in fact, there is evidence to suggest that individuals with a 'fighting spirit' survive longer with cancer than individuals who feel helpless or less optimistic about their chances for survival. Now it seems that the same may be true of a 'giving spirit.'"

 

[Hank]

I do pray myself. Do they work? Well, they work for me.

I read some comments and am putting in my two cents here. If one prays to God, and those prayers are somewhat effective and show statistical results, it should be noted that those prayers are addressed to God. It is not a stand alone act of humans; it is not meditation or pretends telepathic acts. Something seems to be happening though. Somehow those who believe and pray have an affect on people.

I would hand out lemons to my sailors knowing they keep them healthy, I don't need to understand the entire metabolic pathway to know they work. I don't need to understand how prayers work to make them work for me. If science does not have an answer, which is nothing new to me, I won't wait for them to come up with one. I don't think they will ever seriously pursue possibilities of this subject anyhow. - Perhaps science will one day solve the riddle, but until then ...

Before someone critics me on my naïveté, let me jump ahead saying, yes I am. I am not trying to convince anyone on how effective prayers are.

 

[JohnR7]

Originally posted by lucaspa
In fact, it explains the results not on theology but by the theory of evolution.

Oh, I see. If the theory of evolution and the Bible just happen to agree on something. That proves evolution is true, but it does nothing to prove that the Bible is true.  It sounds like my wife when she says: What is mine is mine and what is yours is mine.

What we have here is a double standard. That is why we need double blind or even triple blind studies, to get past this sort of bias.

 

[JohnR7]

Originally posted by lucaspa
Yes, studies show intercessory prayer is effective. But 

But what? You already admit that prayer works, even if the people getting prayed for, do not know that anyone is praying for them.

It could be, that this is not absolute proof for God. Before I became a Christian I believed in a universal consciousness. So I am sure people can come up with alternative explainations.

But it was Christianity that showed these people how to pray. Using the scientific methoid, it has been proven that prayer works. While this may not be evidence for God. It is evidence that Christianity can be benifical and produce good results.  

I am sure endless studies can be done to establish without any doubt that Christianty can be a good influence for people. They may not prove God, but they prove the system and the teaching works.

Just by virture of the fact that for the most part, Christians do not drink, smoke, involve themselves in high risk life styles and so forth. There are a lot of benifits to being a christian.

If you introduce the Christian lifestyle to South Africa, the rate of aids is going to drop. It is a more healthy life style, then the non christian life style, and people will live longer on the average.

 

[lithium.]

Which scientific studies show prayer works?

 

[JohnR7]

Originally posted by Chuck_Darwin
If I recall the bible also says to pray in a closet.... I wish more of the ministers would do that instead of grandstanding.

Yes, that is a part of the teaching on prayer. But we are to preach in the open and even from the rooftop.

Matthew 10:27 "What I tell you in the darkness, speak in the light; and what you hear whispered in your ear, proclaim upon the housetops.

When Paul went to Athens, first he preached in the synagogue. Then he preached in the market place. Finally the Epicurean & Stolic Philosophers took him to a place called "mars hill". Where people would actually stand on a box and preach their message to whoever was there to listen.

The people were impressed, because his teaching was new. Something they had never heard before.

But when they heard about the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, "We will hear thee again of this matter".


 


 

 

[JohnR7]

Originally posted by seesaw
Which scientific studies show prayer works?

The link is in the first post of this thread.

www.godandscience.org/apologetics/prayer.html

 

[lithium.]

Originally posted by JohnR7
The link is in the first post of this thread.

www.godandscience.org/apologetics/prayer.html

Do you have any studies from places that do lots of credible studies maybe from mit, some place that I have heard before.

 

[Hank]

Originally posted by seesaw
Do you have any studies from places that do lots of credible studies maybe from mit, some place that I have heard before.

If you never heard of SF, here is a link

http://www.ucsfhealth.org/

British Medical Journal

http://bmj.com/cgi/reprint/323/7327/1450.pdf

What would you accept a credible?

 

[lithium.]

Originally posted by Hank
If you never heard of SF, here is a link

http://www.ucsfhealth.org/

British Medical Journal

http://bmj.com/cgi/reprint/323/7327/1450.pdf

What would you accept a credible?

I guess they are credible I have heard of BMJ. I still don't believe it helps people. I guess I'm hard headed.

 

[LadyShea]

Most mainstream scientists agree the studies on the effectiveness of intercessory prayer are flawed. They did not do double blind studies, so placebo effect cannot be ruled out.

To prove that prayer really works, we need a properly-conducted double-blind study (i.e., neither the subjects nor the test administrators know who's getting the treatment and who's getting a placebo), just as it would be for any other claimed treatment. Otherwise, if the sick person believes the prayer will help, it may, just as a sugar pill may help if a doctor tells a patient it contains powerful medicine.

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/msciprayer.html 

I feel they should run the experiment using the same methods used for all other treatments if they really wish to prove their viewpoint.

 

[JohnR7]

Originally posted by seesaw
Do you have any studies from places that do lots of credible studies maybe from mit, some place that I have heard before.

You get rid of your demons and I will see what I can do to help you. Otherwise what good is it, if your going to let them influence you?

 

[LadyShea]

What demons?

 

[JohnR7]

Originally posted by LadyShea
Most mainstream scientists agree the studies on the effectiveness of intercessory prayer are flawed. They did not do double blind studies, so placebo effect cannot be ruled out. 

That is nonsense, the studies were double blind. The doctors did not know who was being prayed for, and who was not being prayed for. The people who received the prayer did not even know anyone was praying for them.

There was nothing "flawed" about the studies.