love the sinner/hate the sin

[Macrina]

First off, I want to say that this is NOT a thread for debating whether or not homosexuality is a sin!

I am looking for advice on how to welcome gay people into my congregation without seeming to condone their lifestyle.

I am speaking as someone who believes it is a sin, and yet I want my congregation to be a place where LGBT folks can feel loved and hear the gospel. We talk a lot about "loving the sinner and hating the sin," but that is easier said than done. With many sins, it goes without saying that the church and pastor do not approve of those behaviors, but with this issue, I am afraid that being welcoming seems to be condoning sin. On the other hand, I really want to be welcoming, because how else can people hear the gospel unless they are welcome in our churches?

What I'm getting at here is that homosexuality is different from other sins in that many believe it is NOT a sin. Whereas visitors can generally expect that the pastor and church will be against adultery or other agreed-upon sins, it is not always so clear on this issue. So I feel like I need to make my position clear, but I want to do so in a way that communicates that I am not turning away gay people, that I do not consider this to be a worse sin than others.

This is not an idle concern for me; it is an active issue in my ministry. I would welcome any comments or perspectives on this that can shed light on how I can welcome and minister to a gay member (whom I like and care about) without condoning the gay lifestyle.

thank you!

 

[clonenomore]

...I am speaking as someone who believes it is a sin, and yet I want my congregation to be a place where LGBT folks can feel loved and hear the gospel. We talk a lot about "loving the sinner and hating the sin," but that is easier said than done. With many sins, it goes without saying that the church and pastor do not approve of those behaviors, but with this issue, I am afraid that being welcoming seems to be condoning sin. On the other hand, I really want to be welcoming, because how else can people hear the gospel unless they are welcome in our churches?

What I'm getting at here is that homosexuality is different from other sins in that many believe it is NOT a sin. Whereas visitors can generally expect that the pastor and church will be against adultery or other agreed-upon sins, it is not always so clear on this issue. So I feel like I need to make my position clear, but I want to do so in a way that communicates that I am not turning away gay people, that I do not consider this to be a worse sin than others.

This is not an idle concern for me; it is an active issue in my ministry. I would welcome any comments or perspectives on this that can shed light on how I can welcome and minister to a gay member (whom I like and care about) without condoning the gay lifestyle.

thank you!

Macrina, thank you for starting this thread. I wish that I had an answer for you, but I'm like you -- I'm really struggling with this now. I have been called to plant a church, a church that goes out to where the non-believers are to try to bring them in. Therefore, this is a concern for me as well. I want to make sure that I handle this situation with the mind and heart of God.

Because of my own past experiences, I know that sometimes we as Christians can come off as mean-spirited when we confront sin. I'm not saying that we condone sin -- sin is sin, and it is evil. But we do have to be cognizant of the fact that the sinner is still a child of God that we should care about.

I just want you to know that you are not the only one struggling with this issue. I am interested what God will say through others.

 

[Macrina]

Macrina, thank you for starting this thread. I wish that I had an answer for you, but I'm like you -- I'm really struggling with this now. I have been called to plant a church, a church that goes out to where the non-believers are to try to bring them in. Therefore, this is a concern for me as well. I want to make sure that I handle this situation with the mind and heart of God.

Because of my own past experiences, I know that sometimes we as Christians can come off as mean-spirited when we confront sin. I'm not saying that we condone sin -- sin is sin, and it is evil. But we do have to be cognizant of the fact that the sinner is still a child of God that we should care about.

I just want you to know that you are not the only one struggling with this issue. I am interested what God will say through others.

Clonenomore:

Thanks for joining the discussion. You are right when you say that we can come off as mean-spirited. It seems like we are picking on one sin over others, or that we are saying that people are somehow worse people than we are -- which is certainly not the case. We are all sinners.

I notice that you are a Methodist -- is that United Methodist? The reason I ask is that the United Methodist church has much in common with my denomination --PC(USA) -- in that our mainline denominations are split on issues that relate to homosexuality, marriage, and ordination. In my denomination especially, it is not a given that you believe one way or the other... so it is easy for people to make assumptions when one is not speaking in a loud voice.

-- Mac

 

[clonenomore]

I notice that you are a Methodist -- is that United Methodist? The reason I ask is that the United Methodist church has much in common with my denomination --PC(USA) -- in that our mainline denominations are split on issues that relate to homosexuality, marriage, and ordination. In my denomination especially, it is not a given that you believe one way or the other... so it is easy for people to make assumptions when one is not speaking in a loud voice.

-- Mac

Yes, currently I am a United Methodist. However, God has called me to plant a non-denominational church.

I agree about the split. I live in Georgia, and the UMC down here is totally different than the UMC in other regions of the country -- even though the UMC is an ecumenical denomination. The UMC in this area is much more conservative than the other conferences around the country.

 

[issa]

it is a great balancing act but Jesus was able to do it (going to the houses of tax collectors, speaking to samaritans, getting in close contact with a harlot and many other sinners. we can do it too coz Jesus promised that we will do much greater things with the Helper that He promised us.

let the Holy Spirit guide you in this ministry...you are on the right track coz Jesus came for the lost. He never said it would be easy.

how do you tell someone who has just received Jesus to let go of a sin that that person really loves? how were we able to let go of our own sins when we came to Jesus? very slowly...i have to admit myself.

joshua harris in his book, not even a hint, about sexual purity, said that it is when our love for God outweighs our love for the sin can we ever really let go of the sin. and it is a slow ongoing process for us. he illustrates it so beautifully.

how to teach people to love God more than any sin? now that is another question. God bless you and your ministries!

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

I don't think you'd have to do anything special, just treat the sin and love the person. Get them in touch wth someone who overcame even

 

[Echoes Peak]

You ask a really good question, and I'm not sure you will necessarily get an all inclusive answer here. Heck, I'm not sure you'll even get something that will even remotely look like an answer.

But I definitely agree, that I would treat the person like everyone else. Shower them with the love and kindness and honesty that you would who was not gay. I anticipate that as a pastor your first concern is the spiritual lives of your flock, so maybe that should be a starting point.

I suppose there's a balance somewhere. I'm not sure what it is, though.

 

[plmarquette]

I don't think you'd have to do anything special, just treat the sin and love the person. Get them in touch wth someone who overcame even

1. Ministry , outreach , is a calling of God ( ephesians 4.11-12 )
2. accentuating the obvious ( condemning ) a person under conviction by
your body language , words , and countenance does not work
3. Reaching out to them with love and compassion , as one would to a wounded child or an elderly person with dementia will
4. what we criticise they will defend , for they perceive our witness as an
attack upon them / life style
5. try to see the person , controlled by the wrong spirit , and seek to help
with work , car , yard , house as would any other heathen ....

people do not care what you know , till they know you care

 

[firefly106]

This is a rather touchy subject as we all have our own prejudices but it is important to make a clear distinction between genuinely caring for them so they may be saved and condoning their lifestyle because it's too hard to deal with.
In the evangelising of them, it is important to remember that although their lifestyle is sinful, it is no worse than any other sin. We all deserve to go to hell and in the end, it's not their lifestyle choice but their rejection of Jesus that will lead there.
Emphasise that the Spirit of God who raised Jesus from the dead can transform them and enable them to say 'no' to their temptations. 'For I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me' Philippians 4:13
Above all, we should be affectionate and not let our own judgements affect the way we interact with them 'Do not judge, or you too will be judged' Matthew 7:1
For the brothers and sisters in Christ who are struggling with homosexuality, the following are points one should be mindful of:
* openly accept them as the same as us, a sinner who has been made right by in God's sight by Jesus' atoning sacrifice on the cross.
* support them in the endeavor to walk in obedience to God, and not only in prayer but also in encouragement through the use of God's word and being a source of practical help.
*relate to them in a meaningful, interpersonal way which means more than a simple greeting when you see them at church. Christian men should not fear getting 'too close' to the brother who struggles with homosexuality as christian women should not fear it of a sister. God heals that person through the provision of same-sex (non-sexual) relationships within the Body of Christ.

 

[Evee]

I probably should not say this but I do have a hard time forgiving church leaders and people in power that take advantage of children.
I have a hard time with pedophiles.
I can get past anything else but this is very hard for me.
I will just have to try harder.

 

[madison1101]

I would treat them the same way I would treat someone who is in a sexual relationship outside of marriage, as many people today believe sex before marriage is ok.

I have a son who is bisexual, and a son who lived with his girlfriend this past summer, and spends weekends with her. I have shared the scriptures I believe are Truth about sexual sin. I did this privately and in love. Both sons have told me they disagree that it is sin. I also told both of them that while they are in my home, I expect them to respect my beliefs and not sleep with someone. Last week, my son's girlfriend slept in his bed while he slept on my couch. Neat thing is, they both joined me in church on Sunday.

The good news is, when it comes up, and I don't bring it up that often, the media usually does it for me and we get to talking, we dialogue and I listen to them and respect them because I believe that Jesus would respect them. I then tell them I love them, and remind them that the bottom line isn't whether they are right or wrong about their behavioral choices. What matters is what do they do with Christ's death, burial and resurrection. Do they rely on it for salvation and hope, or not? They don't argue with me on that one.

I hope this makes sense.

I guess if your goal is to reform the homosexuals by getting them to change their behavior, think again. I believe the goal should be to love them to the saving knowledge of Christ, and let the Holy Spirit convict them of their sin.

 

[clonenomore]

...I guess if your goal is to reform the homosexuals by getting them to change their behavior, think again. I believe the goal should be to love them to the saving knowledge of Christ, and let the Holy Spirit convict them of their sin.

Amen! This is what I was trying to say, but I didn't say it this way!

BTW, the lesbian couple that I was talking about joined our church. They will not be allowed to hold a leadership position, and they agreed. As I said earlier, these are still children of God, and, because of that, I love them -- whether I agree with their actions or not. I know that I cannot change hearts, only the conviction of the Holy Spirit can do that. What I can do, though, is pray -- both for my own actions and for them.

 

[Macrina]

Thanks everyone for your feedback. Basically, I'm looking at how to approach my ministry to gay people with integrity -- I neither want to shun them, nor to tacitly say that it is not a sin.

My "goal" is not to change any person's sin, no matter what it is -- that would only be treating the symptom. My goal is to help people establish and deepen a relationship with Christ. Lifestyle issues (of all kinds) come into it, but not as the goal itself.

By nature, I am very timid about confronting sin, so I would be a very unlikely person to go and try to "change" them... like I said, most people err on one side or the other, and I err on the side of compassion, even if it means sometimes people don't know where I stand. I'm just looking for a way to fix that without losing the compassion.

 

[Untamed Fire]

I am looking for advice on how to welcome gay people into my congregation without seeming to condone their lifestyle.

I am speaking as someone who believes it is a sin, and yet I want my congregation to be a place where LGBT folks can feel loved and hear the gospel. We talk a lot about "loving the sinner and hating the sin," but that is easier said than done. With many sins, it goes without saying that the church and pastor do not approve of those behaviors, but with this issue, I am afraid that being welcoming seems to be condoning sin. On the other hand, I really want to be welcoming, because how else can people hear the gospel unless they are welcome in our churches?

Macrina, how far are you willing to go in trusting God Himself? I want to challenge you (in a friendly way) on this. Does God have the power to convict the individual, or must some fallen, imperfect, sinful human being get involved in that process to make sure the point of sin is hammered home? Did human agents inspire the Word of God? Do human agents convict the heart of sin? The Bible tells us the Holy Spirit alone inspires the Word and convicts "of sin, righteousness, and judgment."

What harm could possibly come of establishing a church where LGBT people can come and know that, unless they personally request one-on-one from a pastor, counselor, minister, etc. to discuss it, the issue of their sexual orientation will NOT be brought up, preached upon, or thrown in their faces from the pulpit? Wait, don't cut out on me now, hear me out ... imagine the possibilities. A place where they will hear the truth of the gospel, so they can be drawn to Jesus Christ, and let Jesus Christ Himself work with them in determining what is to be done about their sexual orientation.

I think the "key" to this lies in the story of the woman caught in adultery who was dragged out for stoning in the public square. We Christians are sometimes SO EAGER to make it known we don't "condone" some sin that we inadvertently drag people -- as individuals or in groups -- out into the public square for our own version of "stoning". Jesus' response? He wrote with his finger in the dust and whatever he was writing, it made those eager to cast a stone turn away and slink off in a hurry. Then He asks the woman, "where are your accusers now?" and tells her, "Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more." Too often when this story is preached upon we hear so much emphasis placed on the "go and sin no more" that we totally overlook the FIRST statement: Neither do I condemn you. We also completely overlook the fact that Jesus did not stop to point out precisely what it was that she was doing that was sin that He meant by "go and sin no more" -- in essence, He left that up to HER heart and mind to determine. SHE knew what she was doing wrong, and she knew that she would not be condemned. He set her free to do as her heart led in the matter.

And so must we, no matter how personally affronted we feel by someone else's life -- which is none of our business really. I mean it's none of our biz to try to control someone else to please ourselves.

What I'm getting at here is that homosexuality is different from other sins in that many believe it is NOT a sin. Whereas visitors can generally expect that the pastor and church will be against adultery or other agreed-upon sins, it is not always so clear on this issue.

My dear Sis, I could not disagree with you more strongly than I do on this one point. Gays know all too keenly how Christians feel about their lifestyle -- and supposedly feel about them I might add -- already. My suggestion is this -- establish a church where they are accepted like any other sinner, as a sinner in need of a Saviour, and let the Saviour deal with specific issues in their lives on HIS time.

So I feel like I need to make my position clear, but I want to do so in a way that communicates that I am not turning away gay people, that I do not consider this to be a worse sin than others.

Then I would say, act like it's just another sin like any other sin (all sin hurts the heart of God our Maker) and don't emphasize it any more than any other sin. By the way, I don't go for the whole deal of someone's notion of "good Bible preaching" being to pick some sin and expound upon what's wrong with it. I'd rather find a church where the Word of God is used properly (redemptively) and the mission of Christ is taken up (to free the captives -- one is not freed by lengthy expositions upon the color and weight of one's chains ...) Just my views -- I don't claim to know everything of course. Pray about it, let His Spirit guide you. It sounds better coming from Him anyway! And that's kinda my whole point ... LOL ...

 

[window_wax]

God is not a respecter of persons. Where salvation is the message, hearts will be changed. When a person becomes saved, their behavior is to reflect that change. In the New Testament they would kick people out of the church for sexual sins... Church members that is, Christians... I think Rick Warren stated it well when he said that unbelievers can not be expected to act like believers, until they are believers...

 

[clonenomore]

I think the "key" to this lies in the story of the woman caught in adultery who was dragged out for stoning in the public square. We Christians are sometimes SO EAGER to make it known we don't "condone" some sin that we inadvertently drag people -- as individuals or in groups -- out into the public square for our own version of "stoning". Jesus' response? He wrote with his finger in the dust and whatever he was writing, it made those eager to cast a stone turn away and slink off in a hurry. Then He asks the woman, "where are your accusers now?" and tells her, "Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more." Too often when this story is preached upon we hear so much emphasis placed on the "go and sin no more" that we totally overlook the FIRST statement: Neither do I condemn you. We also completely overlook the fact that Jesus did not stop to point out precisely what it was that she was doing that was sin that He meant by "go and sin no more" -- in essence, He left that up to HER heart and mind to determine. SHE knew what she was doing wrong, and she knew that she would not be condemned. He set her free to do as her heart led in the matter...

...act like it's just another sin like any other sin (all sin hurts the heart of God our Maker) and don't emphasize it any more than any other sin. By the way, I don't go for the whole deal of someone's notion of "good Bible preaching" being to pick some sin and expound upon what's wrong with it. I'd rather find a church where the Word of God is used properly (redemptively) and the mission of Christ is taken up (to free the captives -- one is not freed by lengthy expositions upon the color and weight of one's chains ...) Just my views -- I don't claim to know everything of course. Pray about it, let His Spirit guide you. It sounds better coming from Him anyway! And that's kinda my whole point ... LOL ...

This is what I was trying to say, but I did not say it near as well as this. The gay lifestyle is a sin, but it is no worse than the sins that I committed. As I said in another post, I heard a message one time where the preacher said that too often we try to scare people out of hell, when we should spend more time trying to love people into Heaven.

Special Note to Untamed Fire: I read your Biogrpahy on your Profile page. Read the book Friendly Fire by Mike Warnke. The subtitle of the book is A Recovery Guide for Believers Battered by Religion. It is an excellent book.

 

[desi]

This is what I was trying to say, but I did not say it near as well as this. The gay lifestyle is a sin, but it is no worse than the sins that I committed. As I said in another post, I heard a message one time where the preacher said that too often we try to scare people out of hell, when we should spend more time trying to love people into Heaven.

Special Note to Untamed Fire: I read your Biogrpahy on your Profile page. Read the book Friendly Fire by Mike Warnke. The subtitle of the book is A Recovery Guide for Believers Battered by Religion. It is an excellent book.

Think you can't love people into hell?