LOTR is the spawn of satan

Kerouac71 · Aug 15, 2005

intricatic said:
Sounds like someone dosn't understand that Tolkien, and Lewis were devout Christians, and everything in their books were works of imagination. If you took the time to read their nonfiction works, you'd see their theological side so much more clearly.

There we go that's what i am talking about finally!

intricatic · Aug 15, 2005

This thread would be too absurd for me to even merit my comments upon, but I am a devout Tolkien and Lewis reader and the absurdity of the idea that their works of fiction in any way resemble any kind of evil, aside from the evils portrayed in the books obviously, is enough to make me question the original poster's knowledge of theology or the contributions that Lewis and Tolkien made to theological workings everywhere - as it expands into their works of fiction just as much as their theological critiques. Their knowledge of religious symetry and their understanding of human nature is present in all levels of their works.

Kerouac71 · Aug 15, 2005

Well, I have as yet to read much of Lewis but Tolkien I have read a lot of and I couldn't agree with you more. I have enjoyed Tolkien since I first read LotR in the late 70's and have since picked up some of his more obscure writings as well. I even own the original rotoscoped version of the movie.

intricatic · Aug 15, 2005

Kerouac71 said:
Well, I have as yet to read much of Lewis but Tolkien I have read a lot of and I couldn't agree with you more. I have enjoyed Tolkien since I first read LotR in the late 70's and have since picked up some of his more obscure writings as well. I even own the original rotoscoped version of the movie.

You really aught to read Lewis' non-fiction stuff before you pick up the Narnia series, if you've yet to do so. It'll give you so much more insight into the symetry he's presenting than if you just delved into the world of Narnia.

I'd suggest The Great Divorce. It's incredibly symbolic fantasy that has a dirrect implication to life as opposed to an incredibly complex web of implications that take a very long time to fully comprehend.

But Tolkien was an amazing story teller, Lewis was amazing at critique - the two played off of eachothers strengths in their writings, which is why both seem so amazing to us now when we read their works. They're two sides to a single coin.

Nienor · Aug 15, 2005

Kerouac71 said:
I'm just curious does anyone here know that C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien were excellent friends and that they would actually talk about the christian faith and how much Tolkien was inspired by Lewis. I think some of the people posting on this calling LotR evil and such should really examine the movie closer and see the symbolism.

I own two biographies about Tolkien, 2 copies fo the lotr trilogy, fotr and rotk in spanish, Unfinshed Tales, The Silmarillion, Lay of Beleriand, and Sir Gawain all by Tolkien. I also have 4 books written by other people about Lotr and an ELvish dictionary. I think I know plenty about what lotr is saying and Tolkien.
The point in my post is going back to the Creation myth in the Silmarillion. Because we are given a source of the magic in LotR, we can more easily compare the magic used by Melkor, Sauron, and Saruman to Satanism. I don't think LotR is evil, but people will argue about that and HP.
Magic in Fantasy books is fake. The end.

intricatic · Aug 15, 2005

Nienor said:
I own two biographies about Tolkien, 2 copies fo the lotr trilogy, fotr and rotk in spanish, Unfinshed Tales, The Silmarillion, Lay of Beleriand, and Sir Gawain all by Tolkien. I also have 4 books written by other people about Lotr and an ELvish dictionary. I think I know plenty about what lotr is saying and Tolkien.
The point in my post is going back to the Creation myth in the Silmarillion. Because we are given a source of the magic in LotR, we can more easily compare the magic used by Melkor, Sauron, and Saruman to Satanism. I don't think LotR is evil, but people will argue about that and HP.
Magic in Fantasy books is fake. The end.

I agree to a point, but fantasy is like anything in this world, it can either be used for good or for evil - and this is not to say HP is evil, because I greatly enjoy reading them and am silently awaiting the seventh book - and Tolkien had a way of imbuing that theological edge to his works that Rowlings either lacks or dosn't strive for. Comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges.

Kerouac71 · Aug 15, 2005

Nienor said:
I own two biographies about Tolkien, 2 copies fo the lotr trilogy, fotr and rotk in spanish, Unfinshed Tales, The Silmarillion, Lay of Beleriand, and Sir Gawain all by Tolkien. I also have 4 books written by other people about Lotr and an ELvish dictionary. I think I know plenty about what lotr is saying and Tolkien.
The point in my post is going back to the Creation myth in the Silmarillion. Because we are given a source of the magic in LotR, we can more easily compare the magic used by Melkor, Sauron, and Saruman to Satanism. I don't think LotR is evil, but people will argue about that and HP.
Magic in Fantasy books is fake. The end.

Well in a previous post you directly said that LotR is more evil. So whish is it I am not trying to be difficult but you should really post what you mean. I simply couldn't see why anyone would consider that series evil at all given all the circumstances. However, as you said people will argue that for eternity.

Nanee5 · Aug 15, 2005

I have never read Harry Potter, and have no desire to do so. I believe the movies are probably very good also, but I have no desire to see them. I do not condemn those who do though. The problem I think that most Christians have with HP is that it promotes getting involved with witchcraft, not just using it as catalyst in the HP stories. (and if you don't believe that, you should be at the bookstores when those books are released and see all the kids dressed like Sorcerers)
LOTR and The Chronicles of Narnia are fictional tales that have witchcraft going on, but not overshadowing the true story. And yes, both Tolkein and Lewis were devout Christians, and the LOTR triligy has alot of Christian symbolism (not so much allegory). The Chronicles of Narnia are blatently allegorical, especially The Lion, (which represents Christ), The Witch (who represents satan), and The Wardrobe, and The Last Battle (which is an allegory of the end times).

Nienor · Aug 15, 2005

Kerouac71 said:
Well in a previous post you directly said that LotR is more evil. So whish is it I am not trying to be difficult but you should really post what you mean. I simply couldn't see why anyone would consider that series evil at all given all the circumstances. However, as you said people will argue that for eternity.

I'm sorry if it was confusing. My arguement was supposed to show that LotR is more easily compared to witchcraft then HP, though I think neither are close to the occult.

Purified · Aug 15, 2005

WizardBoy01 said:
LOTR says that this ring will destroy the world so thats liek tha anti-christ, and than wizards who openly practice witch craft go to destroy it. there are demons and creatures from hell and the heros are all possesed buy the ring(anti-christ) so if you don't like harry potter because of witchcraft this is worse guys.

You are the first person I've ever encountered to pivot LOTR against Christianity.

I find it rather... laughable.

Why does it bother you if people won't read Harry Potter? Just let these things lie. You're letting it get to you for nothing. Just be cool man, be cool. You can't change what people say and think.

WBC · Aug 15, 2005

The problem I think that most Christians have with HP is that it promotes getting involved with witchcraft, not just using it as catalyst in the HP stories. (and if you don't believe that, you should be at the bookstores when those books are released and see all the kids dressed like Sorcerers)

I was captivated by the above comment because it raises a valid point... not because it is incorrect... in all probability is likely IS the reason why 'many' (I can't honestly agree with 'most) Christians have a problem with these books. Unfortunately I tend to think those who oppose these books and movies are over-reacting... so what if kids dress up like sorcerors and witches and such... kids have great imaginations, and to stifle those imginations with dogma and unjustified fear is just short of a crime. IMO of course. Fantasy is a wonderful outlet, and with proper parental guidance, children can grow from it. Only when it overshadows reality can it be a problem... and I tend to see 'fantasy' overshadowing' reality' more in the minds of these 'adults' who see an irrational danger in a work of literature when there simply isn't one there. 'Witchcraft' in it's historical sense never existed outside the minds of those who believed in it... it was an irrational fear. During the middle ages when this fear was at it's peak, thousands upon thousands of people met their deaths because of this irrational fear driven by greed and a thirst for power on the parts of magistrates and witch-hunters, a clever lot who abused a sanction by the church that 'witches', since they derived their power from 'satan' were heretics and should be put to death.. MOST of those killed mind you, were Christians, not 'witches' of any sort. Today we have a resurgence of 'witchcraft' by modern neo-pagans and new-agers who often say they are 're-claiming' an ancient art... which IMO is impossible since this 'art' was a product of paranoia and not a real practise of any sort. Not to say there were not the 'weirdos of the day' who did strange things which could be perceived as 'witchcraft'... we still have them now. Read the documentation of how it was believed witches would 'fly on their brooms' and 'blight cattle'... it is obvious people's imaginations were running wild, many of whom were uneducated and superstitious. Today, aside from the harmless practises of modern day Wiccans and the often more devious practises of 'sick individuals' who have claimed this label and like to call themselves 'witches'... witchcraft simply does not exist outside the realms of fantasy. We should not allow the same irrational fears to manifest now that existed so many years ago by allowing ourselves to be drawn in to the ridiculous idea that somehow Harry Potter promotes 'witchcraft' as it was understood to be in the historical sense. We aren't living in the dark ages anymore. Harry Potter's witchcraft in no way resembles the descriptions offered in historical documents such as the Maleus Malificarum (Witch's hammer) that were used to as a guide to identify, find guilty, torture and execute accused 'witches'. there is NO comparison. All I would like to see is people educate themselves before jumping to conclusions. It COULD have saved a lot of trouble in the middle ages... and it can save a lot of trouble now.

FLANDIDLYANDERS · Aug 16, 2005

The trouble with people, is that we tend to cling to ideas and imagery so quickly in a hope to give meaning or validation to our own beliefs or lifestyles.
Anything read or experienced in this way will prove negative to a person.
The key is to be in search of better knowing what is right and wrong and letting your discernment flag up that which is harmful and that which is good. Isn't this what Paul talked about when he asked us to see the good in all things... and that God is slowly revealing Godself in ALL things, we just have to recognise God!?
And so the issue is not is such and such right or wrong, but how can I better relate to people in order to share their world and discover God with them - recognising that we are all learning new ways to recognise God and challenge our own sin.

Bit of a rant. Damn out.

(personally I think HP sucks - bores me silly. LOTR is a bit wordy, but I get what the author was doing... good man.)

intricatic · Aug 16, 2005

HP is not evil. It has the same elements of good and evil that LOTR or Narnia does, but without the theological insights. It's merely a good work of fantasy as Rowling is an amazing story teller.

LOTRbeatspotteranyday · Aug 17, 2005

has anybody noticed that this guy is talking down on the witch-craft and wizardry of LOTR, potter and narnia yet his name is WIZARDboy?

Nienor · Aug 17, 2005

LOTRbeatspotteranyday said:
has anybody noticed that this guy is talking down on the witch-craft and wizardry of LOTR, potter and narnia yet his name is WIZARDboy?

shhhh...It's a secret

VickiY · Aug 17, 2005

Any work of fiction can still influence people for good or for evil. Merely stating that something is ficticious does not mean that it is devoid of the ability to influence people.

I will point out, however, to those who are convinced that Harry Potter will lead children to want to be witches if they read it, that that is impossible. You see, unlike the people who have NOT read the books, the children who HAVE read the books will know that being a witch or wizard is GENETIC. You have Muggle-born wizards and witches, but you also have wizard-born Squibs. Genetics alone influences whether one is a witch or wizard. Therefore, reading these books is the LAST thing that will make kids scan their college catalogues for schools of witchcraft if they are basing things solely on thses books. Just like the magic with LOTR...the magic is something that people are BORN with. That is why no one after LOTR decided to go to Gandalf's School of Witchcraft and Wizardry!

The movies, OTOH, like all movies, leave out the best of what is in the books, and a lot of the ideology/backstory with it.

If either series presented the idea that a person who WAS NOT BORN that way could go and study magic and cast spells, I admit I would not regard them as harmless, as that can influence people who have no brains (like those who think the DaVinci Code is true). However, most of the world over the age of 10 is capable of understanding what FICTION means.

How that FICTION affects them, is another matter, but let no one deny that fiction can influence someone!

Eruliel · Aug 17, 2005

If this is the worst Satan has he had better start quaking in his boots, because frankly, it's a really lame attempt to get at God. God isn't concerned with Satan anymore. He's concerned with correcting his church, getting it to grow up, and mature in him. Satan is just awaiting his trial and he can't do squat

And by the way, The ring...if it's going to represent anything in our mind, is addictive sin. Or power which corrupts up the wazoo. There is nothing to fear from LOTR. Or Harry Potter.
Slainte!
Eruliel

FLANDIDLYANDERS · Aug 18, 2005

And what kind of witchcraft is it promoting, if any?
I have Pagan friends who would consider themselves witches, and they don't do any of the things listed in these books - except maybe wear a cloak. If it's Satanic witchcraft, this is usually called satanism, not witchcraft - although I have yet to find anyone who calls themselves a practicing Satanist, except a few who follow the Anti-Bible, but they're nothing like anything described in these books either.
I would be more concerned with kids who don't read... but then, I'm a teacher!

Flan out.

Linnis · Aug 18, 2005

WizardBoy01 said:
LOTR says that this ring will destroy the world so thats liek tha anti-christ, and than wizards who openly practice witch craft go to destroy it. there are demons and creatures from hell and the heros are all possesed buy the ring(anti-christ) so if you don't like harry potter because of witchcraft this is worse guys.

LOTRs might be the spawn of Satan BUT I have a monster under my bed that lives on odd socks so there!

(Where is the roll eyes smilie when you need it?)

Bevlina · Aug 18, 2005

I'm a fan of LOTR and cannot see any witchcraft in it. Indeed Tolkein was a Christian and a good friend of C.E. Lewis. I cannot see anything untoward in the film at all.

LOTR is the spawn of satan

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