Lost in space

[Mallon]

Had an intersting night last night.
I've recently moved across Canada, from Ottawa to Calgary, to start my grad studies. I left a WELS Lutheran church that I was raised in since my childhood and have been scouting a second WELS church out here that I was interested in joining. I agree largely with their conservative Lutheran theology, and I also have friends and family that attend this curch. I've spent the last week getting the membership transfer papers together and was supposed to be officially welcomed into the church later this morning during the service.
But the pastor came over last night to give me my welcome package and innocently brought up the topic of evolution/creation. He knew I was a palaeontologist and wanted to ask me my thoughts on the matter. I was frank with him and told him that I accepted evolutionary theory as the best scientific explanation was have about the origins of species. We proceeded to talk for the next two hours about the inerrancy of the Bible, the limits of science, the meaning of Scriptural inspiration, etc. By the end, he felt it would be best if I hold off on becoming a member of his church until I sort these questions out in my mind, and suggested that I refuse Communion for the same reason (even though I had been receiving Communion there up until now).
Well, now I'm not even certain I want to become a member of this church, given that I cannot accept a YEC viewpoint in good concience. Problem is, besides the creationism thing, I agree with the church's theological stance. The pastor suggested that I maybe check out some of the more liberal Lutheran churches in the area, but I largely disagree with their stances on such issues as gay marriage. Why should I expect to be any more welcome there? Besides feeling a little rejected, I'm also a little lost in space, not knowing which church I should turn to or where to receive the Lord's Supper.
Anyone else had a similar experience?

 

[jereth]

It is bewildering, not to mention upsetting, that something like this could have happened to you. To be effectively told by a church minister "you're not welcome here because you're an evolutionist" is -- to be quite blunt -- disgraceful.

I pray that you will receive godly wisdom as you decide on your course of action, brother.

 

[Assyrian]

That must be really painful. I'm praying for you brother. May the Lord guide you and give you grace and peace.
Heb 13:12 So Jesus also suffered outside the gate in order to sanctify the people through his own blood. 13 Therefore let us go to him outside the camp and bear the reproach he endured. You are not alone outside the camp. Your Lord and saviour, Jesus Christ has gone ahead of you and is waiting to meet with you there. He has borne your sorrows and longs to share this one with you too.

(Hope this is not to preachy... )

 

[Mallon]

Thanks very much for your prayers, guys. I'm still thinking over this whole situation carefully. Don't think I'll rush into finding a new church too soon.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

The pastor suggested that I maybe check out some of the more liberal Lutheran churches in the area, but I largely disagree with their stances on such issues as gay marriage. Why should I expect to be any more welcome there? Besides feeling a little rejected, I'm also a little lost in space, not knowing which church I should turn to or where to receive the Lord's Supper.
Anyone else had a similar experience?


i've pretty much always been in this kind of position.
i became a Christian in a conservative church and have always joined either that or a close sister denomination. Everyone is political, socially, culturally and theologically conservative, except me. My wife tells me constantly just to keep my big mouth shut, that being part of the community is more important than expressing an opinion, that might very well be wrong.

i dropped out of grad school because i was too religious and went to seminary, but i was too scientific there and was told that i didn't really belong there, either. it's often painful and lonely, but ultimately i've generally followed my conscience and thought about the issues, engaging with the ideas rather than just accepting them on testimony from others.

i would be far worse off in a classic liberal church then quiet in a conservative one. my battle there would be over the essential elements of the faith, at least here the issues are about how to put the faith into action, not over what is true or not.

keep us posted on what happens if you can. i don't really know anyone in this same position IRL, so it is an encouragement to see other people working on the same issues.

By the end, he felt it would be best if I hold off on becoming a member of his church until I sort these questions out in my mind, and suggested that I refuse Communion for the same reason (even though I had been receiving Communion there up until now).

been there, done that. when we started going to our current church, where we are now members, my membership application was put into the pending file for over a year. so we stopped taking communion (the requirements of a close communion are church membership somewhere, not necessarily in this church) for that time period. a bit tough, but conscientiously submitting to the rules. i don't know if this action was considered by the elders when they accepted my application for membership or not, but i would hope that it came up in their deliberations. I think it honors God to struggle with the issues and to take a reasoned stand, even if you later decide it was wrong, you did your best in the process.

this was a big issue a few years back. i think i collected pieces of the discussion at:
http://rmwilliamsjr.livejournal.com/56767.html
perhaps they will help your struggle.

 

[Willtor]

I really appreciate these discussions. I've never applied for membership in a Church because I never stay in any particular geographical area for very long. But I've often wondered what would be required if I were to do so. As I said in another thread, somewhere, I've been approached by an elder and a pastor explicitly because I am not YEC/OEC. I know exactly what you (plural) are saying about feeling rejected, and how one cannot simply think otherwise, being persuaded of a certain thing.

But I think I would leave the Church if I were asked to refrain from Communion. I take Biblical hermeneutics and science very seriously. But the Eucharist makes them pale in comparison. It isn't a game where someone is told that he can't play because of some [comparatively] trivial matter.

Not that this is advice, Mallon. But as empathy, anyway, there is grokage.

 

[Mallon]

Thanks again for all your encouragement, fellas.

To update, the Pastor of this church recently sent me a 7-page response to a David Snoke article I had lent him to read. I plan a detailed response at some point after the new year, when I have the time. In the meantime, I was wondering if others here might like to add their two cents to the matter, given that my knowledge on some of the subjects he touches on (such as the Hebrew language) is depauperate. If so, PM me your address and I'll send you the response (minus names, of course).

 

[gluadys]

Had an intersting night last night.
I've recently moved across Canada, from Ottawa to Calgary, to start my grad studies. I left a WELS Lutheran church that I was raised in since my childhood and have been scouting a second WELS church out here that I was interested in joining. I agree largely with their conservative Lutheran theology, and I also have friends and family that attend this curch. I've spent the last week getting the membership transfer papers together and was supposed to be officially welcomed into the church later this morning during the service.
But the pastor came over last night to give me my welcome package and innocently brought up the topic of evolution/creation. He knew I was a palaeontologist and wanted to ask me my thoughts on the matter. I was frank with him and told him that I accepted evolutionary theory as the best scientific explanation was have about the origins of species. We proceeded to talk for the next two hours about the inerrancy of the Bible, the limits of science, the meaning of Scriptural inspiration, etc. By the end, he felt it would be best if I hold off on becoming a member of his church until I sort these questions out in my mind, and suggested that I refuse Communion for the same reason (even though I had been receiving Communion there up until now).
Well, now I'm not even certain I want to become a member of this church, given that I cannot accept a YEC viewpoint in good concience. Problem is, besides the creationism thing, I agree with the church's theological stance. The pastor suggested that I maybe check out some of the more liberal Lutheran churches in the area, but I largely disagree with their stances on such issues as gay marriage. Why should I expect to be any more welcome there? Besides feeling a little rejected, I'm also a little lost in space, not knowing which church I should turn to or where to receive the Lord's Supper.
Anyone else had a similar experience?

A friend of mine had a similar experience in, believe it or not, the United Church of Canada. Like most "liberal" churches, the UCC has a significant contingent of conservative members and clergy.

I don't know that YECism was involved, but social and theological conservatism certainly was. She had been a member of the UCC all her life and very devoted to progressive social causes as part of her Christian witness. When she was widowed, she moved to a another town to be with her daughter.

To her dismay, she found the local pastor was socially conservative in the extreme. When she had a long talk with him, his suggestion was that she find another congregation.

I don't know what she eventually did, but she was certainly deeply hurt by his attitude.

 

[vossler]

I don't recall ever, to my recollection, posting here in the TE subforum, shoot I rarely come stop by. This is new territory for me. I was prompted to look by the fact that I saw gluadys had posted and wanted to see what was going on with her. Anyway, I digress.

I must say Mallon I'm quite shocked at the approach and attitude of your church. Even as an ardent YEC I don't believe I could even entertain some of the thoughts he was projecting, much less encourage you to find another church, quite interesting and truly sad. Still, how often does the creation account get mentioned these days anyway? Why should that be such a divisive issue for him to keep you as a member. He must see you as a heretic or something. The only thing I could see as legitimate point on their part would be to not allow you to teach.

I attend a very conservative baptist church that has a national broadcast on Daystar television. My pastor's name is Robert Jeffress and if you were to read any of his best selling books you would find him to be extremely conservative. Yet as conservative as we are, I know there are no checklists for issues such as creation in order to be a member, as far as I know they don't even have a stand on it for those who teach. I realize that your Lutheran, but I don't believe us baptists are all that much different, at least not in the core issues, that might be a worthwhile avenue to check it out and look into.

As you've already been advised, I too would make sure that leaving is exactly what the Lord would have you to do. However, the part about refraining from communion though is very disturbing and reason enough to leave.

I pray that God gives you peace in this matter.

 

[Melethiel]

Have you looked into any LCMS/LCC churches? They're also theologically conservative, and while officially YEC, are not as stringent as the WELS tends to be on such issues.

 

[Servant222]

Would your pastor be willing to follow a forum discussion on evolution vs creation, YE, OE just so that he realizes that committed Christians can have a variety of viewpoints? Send him an email link to "Origins" and then check later to see if he at least looked at it.

Sometimes, it is the fear of the unknown that makes someone retreat into an unnecessarily conservative position- it is always more comfortable.

Could you find a more compatible church- one that is both spiritually what you need, but more understanding of different points of view?

 

[laptoppop]

As you guys all know - I'm a staunch YEC -- but it saddens me too to think someone would put this issue on the level of something that would affect receiving communion. Sin/fallen nature/redemption -- sure. How God created the world? sheesh. As long as the core principles are solid - we can have good passionate discussion and even disagreements -- right before we kneel before our common Lord in prayer together, one heart in terms of being yielded to Him. I'm praying here too, for all the parties involved.

 

[Servant222]

Very well said.

I also like your reference to Proverbs- sage advice.

 

[Mallon]

Thanks again to all those Christian brothers and sisters here, creationist or TE, for your prayers. Seems word as to my conversation with 'my' Pastor is spreading -- my mother tells me that many in my old congregation sympathize with me, while I just got a letter in the mail this evening from my fundamentalist grandmother-in-law reminding me to keep the words of Genesis in mind (as though I was not already familiar with them). I suspect I may start shopping for a new church in the New Year, after I reply in kind to the Pastor here. This sort of thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth, though it's amazing what alienation can do to push one closer to God.

 

[Servant222]

This Sunday, I'm going to ask my pastor what he would do.

I'd hate to think of this as being a "test" of tolerance, but on the other hand, would be disappointed if the Church did not accept different points of view that I don't believe detract from one's faith.

 

[LewisWildermuth]

I have only been a “member” of a few churches since I tend to move around a lot. I have been told that I should not attend a few churches after private conversations with the pastors, but I have never been refused or asked not to take communion if I did attend.

The thought of refusing or encouraging someone not to participate in communion somehow disturbs me more than being asked not to attend at all.

I will have you in my prayers on this subject.

 

[shernren]

I honestly can't imagine not being able to participate in communion in church. My church (EFC) practices open communion where any professing Christian, even a visitor, can participate. (On an aside, I slightly dislike how it's done, with cute little plastic cups being passed around so that we do it stuck in the comfort of our seats. Kneeling somehow feels better.)

When the pastor/leader tells non-Christians not to participate, he tells them to simply pass it on because "the elements will have no meaning for you". Come to think of it, if I was not allowed to partake in communion (and I'm baptized so it wouldn't be on those grounds) I would take it that the church doesn't think that the elements will have meaning for me. And that would really hurt.

Stay strong!

 

[Servant222]

I asked our Pastor (conservative Baptist church) about this today and he indicated that he would not take the same position as your Pastor would, and that restricting communion as you described wouldn't likely happen. He did say that for important church appointments, a candidate would be asked whether he/she accepts the principle of a God-created Universe, but that is as far as it would likely go.

 

[Willtor]

I asked our Pastor (conservative Baptist church) about this today and he indicated that he would not take the same position as your Pastor would, and that restricting communion as you described wouldn't likely happen. He did say that for important church appointments, a candidate would be asked whether he/she accepts the principle of a God-created Universe, but that is as far as it would likely go.

Yeah, traditional doctrines of creation make sense as requirements for leadership. Even the new YEC doctrines might make sense in the context of a Fundamentalist Church that wishes to remain so. But I'm certainly glad for this response.