Loss of Salvation/ John Bevere

[Coptic.Ray]

First off, NOTHING can replace the redemptive work of Jesus Christ on the cross. But this is not the question here.

For 14 centuries the Universal Church (Oriental/Eastern Orthodox or Catholic), from Ethiopia to Ireland, from India to Spain, taught that salvation is a process. We obtain Jesus Salvation the moment we believe and be baptized. We work out - day to day- our salvation with the grace of God. We hope that God will accept us with His right-hand sheep in the judgement day. Thus salvation is begins in baptism, continues as long as we live and finish on judgement day.

Calvin invented "One doesn't lose his/her salvation" doctrine in the 15th century. He did that to counter the Catholic wrong practices which effectively turned Christianity into a point system, where one does good stuff to gain points in order to pass an exam.

The sound doctrine is to believe in Our Lords redemptive power. His blood on the cross creates a new man in us. Every day when we come to Him with our sins as His Children, he takes away our sins, purifies us and saves us from those sins. His grace visits us when we go astray, He deals with us in many ways to bring us back to Him. But it is up to us to continue accepting Him in our live and letting Him save us or to reject Him. it is a constant struggle.

There are many verse that conveys the message that "one can't lose his/her salvation" which are true in the sense of being accepting Christ salvation, believing and getting baptized. that is why we don't rebaptize people, no matter what sin they did. We get born again once and for all. Thus there are many verses telling us that if we don't stay vigilant we may lose our salvation, God forbids. Paul himslef (which many people quote him regarding salvation) was afraid of being disqualified after helping many people. "But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified" (1 Cor 9:27)

I guess the bottom line is "But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?" ( Romans 2: 2-4)
Thus I agree with the original poster.

 

[Jer29]

Water baptism is a work and has nothing to do with a condition to salvation. There have been millions of deathbed conversions in the last 2,000 years or other instances where people have had no opportunity to get dunked. The thief on the cross has no such chance to be dunked. We also see in Acts 10 that believers were first Baptised in the Holy Spirit BEFORE they were dunked.

We also have Paul's testimony in I Cor. 1:13-17 ......

"I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, lest anone should say that I had baptized in my own name. Yes I also baptized the household of Stephanus. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other. For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom and words, lest the cross of Christ be made of no effect."

The Bible must be taken as a whole. It is dangerous ground to base a theology, doctrine, or practice on only a few pet passages. The whole of Scripture tells us plainly that water baptism is not necessary FOR salvation, it is an ordinance administered SUBSEQUENT to salvation. In theological terms this principle is known as the Preponderance of Scripture.

 

[MrBojangles]

If a believer can be lost by sin, then there is no effective difference between the OT and the NT.
Under the OT, you are lost because you sin.
In the NT, you are lost because you sin.
Whether you are lost under law or lost under grace... you are still lost and still because of sin.
There is something wrong here.

 

[Alex-C-L]

I can see your point MrBojangle but under the old covenant believers didnt have the holy spirit living inside of them. God said he would write his laws into our hearts and he has done this through Jesus and the infilling of the holy spirit. Therefore under the new covenent we have the capacity not to sin whereas under the old this was not possible. The bar is therefore much higher under the new because grace enables us to overcome sin. As I see it grace is forgivness and empowerment not to sin, it is not a passive acceptance of it.

 

[Alex-C-L]

As a result to persist in sinful habits under grace crucifies Jesus over again which of course cannot happen. There is no forgivness in this as it is trampling underfoot the redemptive work of Jesus.

 

[pinetree]

Work at sin to keep your salvation?

You couldn't save yourself before, but now that you have been saved by God, you suddenly have the ability to keep yourself saved?

Dangerous works "gospel"!

The Lion is fierce to defend His own, not to devour them.

yes..
They tried it way back when,,and some try it now.

I did not read the book,but wanted to post this verse.

Galatians 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

 

[Alex-C-L]

No we couldnt save ourselves before but upon acceptance of Jesus we have that capacity and liberty if we keep walking with him. Its all about not just having Jesus as saviour but as LORD as well. This is my understanding or at least one view.

 

[MrBojangles]

We take two believers. Both have the Holy Spirit have now have the ability to not sin.
So how could either of them sin?
I still fail to see the difference. You have a believer (with the Holy Spirit) who sins and a believer (with the Holy Spirit) who does not sin. In either case, sin is the deciding factor. Holy Spirit or no, sin is still the only factor that matters in whether a person is lost or not.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

imo the prophets of the OT saw the mountaintops but didn't see the valley between which is Christianity and tended to talk of both as if one. What's not being differentiated between now is the millinium and eternity and both are being spoken of as if it were one, which it isn't. The millinium is the beginning of completion, merely the consumation of the ages past with a lean to further completion.

 

[Alex-C-L]

They could sin because we still have free will. Thats why we have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Grace and the power of the holy spirit gives us the oppertunity for heaven, something that before Jesus wasnt possible.

 

[MrBojangles]

They could sin because we still have free will. Thats why we have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Grace and the power of the holy spirit gives us the oppertunity for heaven, something that before Jesus wasnt possible.

That is a very good approach.
The works requirement is still troublesome. It still seems like works is the deciding factor. There will be two classes of peope in hell. One class being those who sinned with Christ and the other who sinned without Christ. Either way... it was sin that ruled the day. It is people (with or without Christ) using their free will to sin.

 

[obsolete]

More like motives is the deciding factor. It's pretty hard to have bad motives when your working on changing yourself away from idols and turning to God.

 

[Alex-C-L]

Yes it troubles me as well. Since studying this book in light of scripture Ive felt very discouraged. The thing is though Jesus wants a strong people who overcome[ and through the blood of the new covenant we have been given the means to achieve this] Jesus is really not kidding when he talks about taking up your own cross. To me its a terrifying concept and very alien.He really will spew out the lukewarm.

Yes there are different levels of punishment in the lake of fire, just as there is a class system in the Kingdom of Jesus according to our works in accordance with his grace and will.

 

[MrBojangles]

I suppose the bottom line question I would ask a room full of Christians is this:
Have you sinned since you were born again?
All would raise their hands.
If sinlessness is the standard for salvation.. who then is saved?

 

[KleinerApfel]

I suppose the bottom line question I would ask a room full of Christians is this:
Have you sinned since you were born again?
All would raise their hands.
If sinlessness is the standard for salvation.. who then is saved?

Makes no sense at all does it?

When you're born again you receive eternal life. What does eternal mean? Forever!
Not until you for get to repent of one sin or until your sin gets to some particular but undefined level known only to God!

None shall snatch us from God's hand. Is sin too powerful for God to keep hold of us? Will He lose His grip and allow sin to steal away His blood-bought child?

No way!

 

[Joy]

Romans 6 says we have died with Christ and raised with Him to newness of life, but Romans 6:12 talks about choosing not letting sin control the way we live. And as we choose God's way the Holy Spirit gives us power to live without sin controlling our lives.
Yes we are justified totally by Jesus but there are many passages in the New Testament which clearly say we have to choose to say no to sin.

 

[mercyreigns]

Salvation is free, there's nothing we can do to earn it. I believe that salvation can be lost, but I don't think it's by accident or by not trying hard enough. I believe salvation can be lost by a deliberate act of walking away from the Lord. I can't imagine ever doing that, and some might argue that if you can walk away, you were never truly saved in the first place. A very convincing argument!

Rom 14:4 Who are you that judges another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. But he will stand, for God is able to make him stand.

There is where my trust lies. God is able to make me stand.

 

[MrBojangles]

I do not want to say anything to harm anyone's faith... nor do I want to say anything to even suggest sin is "acceptable" in any context.
I hope you understand this.

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

I can see your point MrBojangle but under the old covenant believers didnt have the holy spirit living inside of them. God said he would write his laws into our hearts and he has done this through Jesus and the infilling of the holy spirit. Therefore under the new covenent we have the capacity not to sin whereas under the old this was not possible. The bar is therefore much higher under the new because grace enables us to overcome sin. As I see it grace is forgivness and empowerment not to sin, it is not a passive acceptance of it.

You got your covenants wrong...the Covenant of Grace began in Genesis chapter 3.
GOD=Holy Spirit. People of the OT DID have God living inside of them, don't tell me the PROPHETS didn't have the Holy Spirit!
...sorry you're premise is not correct.
GOD didn't just add the 3rd person of the Godhead/Trinity on the fly for the New Testament age did he? erm NOPE!
The Holy Spirit is HIM, the I AM! GOD raised the bar for the New Testament??? What have you been taught?????
Don't state things about capacity not to sin, blah blah blah. Humanity is a fallen creation since the day Adam ate of the fruit period!
You do injustice to the OT saints.

 

[Alex-C-L]

The OT saints were guided by the holy spirit but were not filled as we are under the new covenant. I am not doing injustice to OT prophets.
Why do you think that fleeces were acceptable under the old covenant but not in the new. We have a better way, an internal way of being guided.
Under the law people were put to death for the physical act of murder, under the new to hate your brother is murder.

Yes humanity is still a fallen creation but Jesus gives us the spiritual keys to overcome if we yield to his spirit.Im not talking about the cessastion of sin but a life no longer characteurised by sin because of Jesus.