Loss of Mystery

[Caedmon]

In the protestant churches that I have attended, I have sensed/noticed a disturbing lack of Mystery. What I mean is that God does not "come alive" in today's protestant churches, well at least the ones I've been to. Is there a reason for this? I believe it is because we have lost the Sacred.

Where is the Sacred in today's protestant churches? Where is the Holy? Where is the process, ceremony, awe, reverence for the power and sheer magnitude of God? Where are the Miracles? Where is the Presence? I believe that most of today's charismatic movements have sprung up in reaction to this lack of Mystery in protestant churches. I have never seen the Miraculous, the Mystical, the Presence of God in protestant churches. Have we protestants lost this in our churches? Did we ever have it at all?

 

[Phoebe]

I think it is due to the fact that many don't reflect God in their lives. (The congregants, that is.)
We have begun to let outside activities rule our lives. Our children are involved in too many secular activities. (mainly sports or other school activities) The adults work too much to provide material things for their families. We get less fulfillment from our jobs/ careers. We all suffer from some burn- out at times. We don't focus on God enough.

And yes, we used to have it. Some still do. I felt it frequently when I went to church as a youth. I don't feel the presence of the Holy Spirit quite as frequently now (in the church building), but it does occur.

 

[Caedmon]

I think a major reason why we don't see mystery and awe in protestant churches is because they don't utilize ceremonies.

In fact, the only kind of ceremony that comes to mind is a marriage ceremony. I think it's strange that a marriage ceremony would pop into head even faster than would the Lord's Supper! I mean, how many times do protestant churches have the Lord's Supper? Four... six times a year?

Is there really anything special about our communions? Do we seek to do anything in preparation for our remembrance of the Lord's sacrifice? I've gone to southern baptist churches all my life, and I'm willing to bet that less than half of the people in those congregations did anything to prepare themselves mentally, emotionally, or spiritually for communion. Half probably didn't even know that the Lord's Supper was going to happen that Sunday!

And the crazy thing is that I've only observed about three Lord's Suppers in as long as I've been saved. THREE!!!!! Now, that's partially because my family went through a dry spell in church attendance for a while, but still... that's kind of ridiculous.

Also, if it is just symbolic, then why do we do it, other than that it's commanded in the Bible? I believe that everything the word of God teaches and commands should have some kind of apparent, practical, applicative use. Where is the apparent and practical use of communion? What does it do for us that we couldn't do at a normal church service? Where is the resulting sanctification?

The only prerequisite for taking the Lord's Supper at all the services I've observed is that you're "saved"... NO repentance, NO renewal of commitment, NO meditation on Christ at home before you come. I can honestly say, that every time I went to the Lord's Supper, I got nothing out of it, even when I was a new Christian and fresh in the faith. Again, I ask... what is the purpose?! Where is our sense of awe, reverence, and mystery in ceremony?

 

[ZooMom]

Hi, Joe.

I know what you mean. I was raised Methodist, and communion was never something that 'spoke' to me. When I look back at it, it wasn't even 'communion'. I mean, it was too...individual...I guess. Your own private little ceremony. Where was the 'community'? I've heard that some Protestant (and by that I mean non-Catholic) churches even have their 'communion' pre-prepared in little plastic covered sterile individual containers that they pass around on a tray. Did Christ, at the last supper, bid everyone drink from their *own* cup? Did He bid everyone eat from their *own* plate? No, He did not. I have never understood what exactly communion means to the Protestant churches. Except that they are doing 'because Christ said to do it'. I'm sure that it means something to them, I'm just not sure what good it does for them. Protestants deny the Sacraments as vehicles of Grace, yet they follow an empty form just for forms sake. They keep the Sacraments of Baptism and Matrimony, rejecting the others, and yet even those they strip of any actual function, claiming that they are only for 'show'. To show others, Christians or not, that they are obedient to God.

Why would God, or Christ, ask us or more accurately command us to do anything that was not for the benefit of our immortal souls? Why would God, or Christ, give us forms to follow that were empty of substance?

 

[SUNSTONE]

I think that this is mostly in America.
Americans are fat with money.
I once joked that I was so fat that for 4 years I didn't feel hunger pain.
We have stores open 24-7 to get food, not much room for a miracle there.
We have spiritual gifts going to waste, because of hospitols and doctors.
Instead of praying and expecting or even needing a miracle we just goto the hospitol. When the doctors can't do anything, then we come to the Lord for help.

Americans depend on money and man more than prayers, and God.

But this is just one of many things that could be the problem, but for me, I feel the Holy Spirit not just in church, but through out the day. My intensity for the Lord is stronger than ever in my 7 years as a Christian.

 

[Phoebe]

I am a Lutheran. We have communion at least twice a month. (just dropped back from every Sunday)
We have corporate confession at the beginning of our service. This helps prepare us to receive communion. Communion is the assurance that all of our sins are forgiven for the asking. The ELCA has what is called open communion. You don't have to be a member of that congregation/ denomination to take communion. We welcome all to the Lord's Table who believe in Jesus as their Savior, and who recognize that they are a sinner.
I feel the Holy Spirit away from church, too. I also hear "him."
Joe, have you ever visited a Lutheran church? (Catholic Light, as some refer to it.)

 

[Caedmon]

Originally posted by Phoebe
I am a Lutheran. We have communion at least twice a month. (just dropped back from every Sunday)
We have corporate confession at the beginning of our service. This helps prepare us to receive communion. Communion is the assurance that all of our sins are forgiven for the asking. The ELCA has what is called open communion. You don't have to be a member of that congregation/ denomination to take communion. We welcome all to the Lord's Table who believe in Jesus as their Savior, and who recognize that they are a sinner.
I feel the Holy Spirit away from church, too. I also hear "him."
Joe, have you ever visited a Lutheran church? (Catholic Light, as some refer to it.)

No, I've never visited one. I think that southern baptist churches usually have communion only 2-4 times a year! What is "corporate confession"? Is it a corporate recitation of a Creed or a statement of contrition?

 

[Andrew]

quote: "Where are the Miracles? Where is the Presence? I believe that most of today's charismatic movements have sprung up in reaction to this lack of Mystery in protestant churches. I have never seen the Miraculous, the Mystical, the Presence of God in protestant churches. Have we protestants lost this in our churches? Did we ever have it at all?"

I think that's prob becos they reject the Holy Spirit -- in terms of rejecting the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (with tongues as the sign) and the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

The main difference diff betw the protestant churches you described and the charismatic churches is simply these 2 things.

Granted there are traditional protestant churches that accept these 2 things but they only acknowledge it and are not 'into' it.

The presence of God has much to do with his Spirit -- or the moving of his Spirit. but if a church keeps out the moves of the Spirit (eg someone speaking in tongues or just describing a vision he saw and they are ostracised or thrown out) then you wont see much happening, except routine church worship processes.

 

[Phoebe]

Corporate confession is just everyone asking forgiveness at the same time.
Private confession with the minister is available in the Lutheran church, but people rarely make use of it. (usually only when the person can't let it go)

Most merciful Father
We confess that we are in bondage to sin, and cannot free ourselves.
We have sinned against you in thought, word, and deed.
By things we have done, and by things we have left undone.
We have not loved you with our whole hearts.
We have not loved our neighbors as ourselves.
For the sake of your Son, Jesus Christ,
Have mercy on us.
Forgive, renew us, and lead us,
so that we may delight in your will, and walk in your ways,
To the glory of your Holy Name, Amen
(this is prefaced by a period of silence for reflection and self examination)
Then forgiveness is declared to us in the name of Jesus and Almighty God.
It is not the pastor doing the forgiving. He is speaking on God's behalf because he is ordained and called of God, and speaking by His authority.

 

[Patmosman_sga]

Protestantism in general lacks an adequate understanding of the Church. It sees the Church not as a living organism deriving its identity from its covenant relationship with God, but as a static political entity defined by what it believes about God. Doctrine becomes an end in itself, rather than an expression of the Church's living faith to the end that God's eternal purpose for his creation be realized on earth as it is in heaven.

The fact that there is no "mystery" in Protestant worship is by design. Worship is supposed to be an expression of the Church's covenant relationship with God, a relationship bound up in "mystery." But, in most Protestant churches, it is nothing but a head trip centered around the preacher's finely honed homiletical dissertation.

 

[SnuP]

I would have to agree with Andrew, but would add that the problem starts with a lack of fellowship with God in general.  People who have a burning desire to touch God, always experience Him as long as they don't hinder Him with their own doctrine.

I would have to say that the real problem with most prodestant churches is that they lost their first love.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by SnuP
I would have to agree with Andrew, but would add that the problem starts with a lack of fellowship with God in general.  People who have a burning desire to touch God, always experience Him as long as they don't hinder Him with their own doctrine.

I would have to say that the real problem with most prodestant churches is that they lost their first love.

And I agree with both of these brothers.

Fellowship with God goes beyond a 5 minute devo where we read a scripture that makes us feel good we say a quickie prayer and then we're off for the day.

Fellowship is to be that time where we sit down before God and ask Him to change us. Change our thought, our ways, our acts. It's that time where we allow Him Him to dig deep into our souls and show us who we are and who He wants to mold us into . . .Himself. It's that time where we love on Him and allow Him to love on us.

Fellowship with God . . .that's the main missing link.

 

[Caedmon]

I think that we have lost the art of meditation. Meditation not only focuses a person on God, but also cleanses the mind, heart, and soul, letting us more efficiently serve God. We need to be able to shut out the world totally for an hour a day and flow into a holy meditative trance state where the world ceases to exist for a while, being nourished by and bathed in the wonder and mystery of God. I do not agree with being "slain in the spirit", but I do believe in the reasoning behind it. I believe it is beneficial, but that it also requires some structure to give it prolonged efficacy. We should feel comfortable with participating in structured meditative communion. We need to be able to let go of life for a little while and melt into the strong, gentle, ever-compassionate arms of God.

 

[SnuP]

Has such meditation ever comepletely released you from a stronghold, set you free from sin or brought about the miraculous.

 

[Jenna]

Hello everyone,

Well, I go to an LCMS Lutheran Church, and have for most of my life. When I was young, there was a great deal of cerimony to our worship services, but things have changed as I have grown. We still have processionals and we still utilize all parts of service, but the polish is missing compared to what I had known.

When members of the church questioned our Pastor as to why all of this was being let go, along with his robes and such, he was very honest. As it were, Pastor was afraid that the trappings and the cerimony was beginning to come between the Church and any visitors that we had. He never wanted anyone to view his as unapproachable or to worry that they wouldn't fit in and therefore would not want to worship with us. With the thought that none of us would ever want our traditions to stand in the way of another's salvation, the changes took place. Of course, that doesn't mean that a number of us don't miss it fiercely. Whenever I feel a deep need for more cerimony and time for quiet relfection, I go to a Catholic Church. All in all though, each has it's time and place. I don't think that my Church Body has lost any of it's connection with God or is irreverant, just that they worship in a different way. I mean, if you ever wanted to just sing out praises with all your heart and lift your hands in prayer, my Church is a great place to go. For those who can manage it, they have deeply touching prayer services on wednesdays that really help those who need that quieter time to contemplate, pray, and seek God's face. I, however, cannot go due to transportation matters.

I don't think that protestant Churches on a whole are lacking in their relationships with God, but that they are not as well-rounded as we sometimes expect. But, all in all, if a person's expectations are not being met, then they have all of the power to make the appropriate changes.

 

[Caedmon]

Originally posted by SnuP
Has such meditation ever comepletely released you from a stronghold, set you free from sin or brought about the miraculous.

Yes it has. It has pulled me through depression, it has helped me to resist sin, it has helped me to maintain a prayerful state throughout the entire day, and it has helped me to understand that God is always around us, and that lots of miracles happen all the time... it's just that sometimes we can't see them because we're not looking for them.

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by humblejoe
Yes it has. It has pulled me through depression, it has helped me to resist sin, it has helped me to maintain a prayerful state throughout the entire day, and it has helped me to understand that God is always around us, and that lots of miracles happen all the time... it's just that sometimes we can't see them because we're not looking for them.

Tell us about some of the awsome miracles that you have seen.  Also could you explain in more detail what this meditation that you are speaking of is like.

 

[isshinwhat]

I posted this in another thread, but I feel it has revelance here, too.  Meditation is being still and contemplating the mysteries of God, wherever they are seen; in the birth of a Child, in Christ's Incarnation, or in His beautiful Creation which was created through His Word.  When we begin to do this, "...every creature will be to you a mirror of God and a book of holy teaching."  Someone once said that a beautiful sunset or the birth of a child could make a mystic out of the most hardened of souls.  I believe that at the very least they are a good start.
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A Christian mystic is one who tries through contemplation, Scripture reading, and prayer to discern the will of God and to live that will. Father Benedict Groeschel explains it like this:

God calls us in a thousand different ways in the course of a short space of time. This is an aspect of His grace - or the free, unmerited love he has for His children. One of the secrets of the interior journey is to be sensitive and responsive to the different ways He calls us. The Imitation of Christ gives us this wise insight: "If your heart is pure, every creature will be to you a mirror of God and a book of holy teaching." The real secret of the saints is to listen more attentively and respond ever more faithfully to the invitations of God in everday life.

It would be impossible to give even the most succint list of ways in which Christ summons the Christian soul in what is called the sacrament of the present moment. We have included some of the most obvious ways: the created world, the Bible, the words of great spiritual writers... the experience of the faithful soul, and, finally, marriage.

(The Journey Toward God: In the Footsteps of the Great Spiritual Writers- Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox, Chapter 11)

A Christian mystic is not one who desires visions. One of the great Christian mystics, St. John of the Cross, wrote in The Ascent of Mount Carmel, Book 2, Chapter 22:

Any person questioning God or desiring some vision or revelation would not only be guilty of foolish behavior but also of offending Him, by not fixing his eyes entirely upon Christ and by living with the desire for some other novelty

God could respond as follows: If I have already told you all things in My Word, My Son, and if I have no other word, what answer or revelation can I now make that would surpass this? Fasten your eyes on Him alone, because in Him I have spoken and revealed all, and in Him you shall discover even more than you ask for and desire.

That is true Christian mysticism.

God Bless,

Neal

 

[Caedmon]

Originally posted by SnuP
Tell us about some of the awsome miracles that you have seen.  Also could you explain in more detail what this meditation that you are speaking of is like.

Gladly ... I'll start with the second part.

For me, meditation takes many forms, some more formal than others. The most formal I can think of is the Rosary. It allows me to meditate on the mysteries of God in a very structured, methodical way. There are also less formal, impromptu methods. Sometimes I read Scripture for meditation. My favorite passages for this use are the Psalms. I particularly enjoy meditating Psalm 119, because it is very long, and does a lot of beneficial reiteration. I've also experienced a sort of meditation in reading poetry in general. Wordsworth is good for this purpose.

Now, I'll discuss the miracles. You may not agree with my miracles, but I think that perhaps you are looking for more explicit "signs" from God, such as miraculous healing. I, on the other hand, have found that many things, even small, in this world, and in fact the universe itself, are miracles. As issh stated, anything from a set method of prayer to observing a sunset or a newborn child can inspire the mystic.

When I was younger, I had an astounding meditation experience. It's ironic that it was an impromptu meditation, and not structured. I didn't even consider meditation as worship at that time. Well, I was riding in the car with my family, and I began to think(meditate) on Heaven. I just began to think of what it would be like, and then I had such a profound experience, that I have never had such a moment like it since. Now don't get freaked out by this, lol. For a split second, it was as if the gates of Heaven opened, and, well, I didn't see it, but I knew it, I guess is the right word. I knew Heaven, where there is no pain, no death, no suffering. I have never experienced that sensation since.

I have also, during times of great trial, received cues from God, whether it be in the form of a bird, butterfly, ladybug, anything ordinary presented in a profound, unusual, or consistent way. Rain has especially been a source of solace. I remember once when I was trying desperately to decide my field of study, I was reading William Wordsworth's "Few Lines Composed over Tintern Abbey"(which I highly recommend ) It is a rather lengthy poem, about 4 pages long. Well, as I approached the final line of the poem, and as I read the last few words... it began to rain. I took that as a cue, that God wanted me to go into literature. Since then, I've taken a detour into science, but now I am returning again to literature... amazing. God had shown me my life's study.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by humblejoe
I think that we have lost the art of meditation. Meditation not only focuses a person on God, but also cleanses the mind, heart, and soul, letting us more efficiently serve God. We need to be able to shut out the world totally for an hour a day and flow into a holy meditative trance state where the world ceases to exist for a while, being nourished by and bathed in the wonder and mystery of God. I do not agree with being "slain in the spirit", but I do believe in the reasoning behind it. I believe it is beneficial, but that it also requires some structure to give it prolonged efficacy. We should feel comfortable with participating in structured meditative communion. We need to be able to let go of life for a little while and melt into the strong, gentle, ever-compassionate arms of God.

 

Hey humblejoe,

Wow this is pretty thought provoking stuff.  I believe we have lost the art of meditation too.  Scripture tells us meditate on Him and His Word but I think that very few of us actually do it.  I think the main reason could be that those who know how to do it are not teaching the younger and enexperienced how. 

I have been surprised at how often I have heard another Christian, whose known the Lord for some time, say, they don't know what to say to God when they pray. 

The "slain in the Spirit" thing can be a hot topic.  However, like you said there is good reasoning behind it.  But even that has lost it's mystery.

When I was a child, growing up in the penticostal church, I use to see people lay on the floor for hours.  Now, they fall down, they immediately get back up.  And, there seems to be very little change, although we can't see their heart.

As a child of course, I did what I saw the adults doing and never did "see" any changes.  However, a few years ago, I basically got "zapped" by the Holy Ghost and my personality changed dramatically.  People told me I glowed.  Coworkers started asking me if I was in love.  I'd say, yes, I fell in love with Jesus.

Now I'd known the Lord the majority of my life.  I was saved, and I had a very close relationship with God.  But I'd never had that happen before.

Meditating, for me, goes way beyond just thinking about God and what He's done.  It involves my whole being.  My body, my soul, and my mind. 

It's during those times that God is able to reach down and poke at areas that He needs to change.  It's during those times that I'm able to tell Him my heart.  It's during those times He's able to tell me His heart.

Wow, Joe, thanks for bringing this subject up.  I just love talking about Jesus. 

Later brother . . .