Losing the faith

[StTruth]

Hi,

I've read a lot of threads on CF and a lot of people are upset because they're losing their faith or someone they love is losing the faith. What does losing the faith really mean?

From what I have read, a lot of it is about losing the belief that Christianity is true. I can understand that. Since I started reading a great deal especially during my last school hols, I too have been agonising over the truth (or otherwise) of my religion which means so much to me. I was terrified I'd become an atheist not because I fear hell or fear death or desire eternal life but simply because my life and my entire being have been so enmeshed in my religion that it's now a part of my identity and every cell in my body is stamped "Christian".

I was very comforted when I read what the Rev Walton, Chaplain of Harvard University has to say: "It does not matter if Christianity is true, but rather can we, as those informed by the teachings of Jesus, make it true." (See this article in the Harvard Gazette)Wow!!! That made me so happy because there is so much truth in what this priest has to say.

It doesn't matter. You don't have to leave the Church and be an atheist. You can still work and do good deeds for the glory of Christ our Lord.

I hope this is as edifying to you as it is to me.

Cheers,

StTruth

 

[civilwarbuff]

I was very comforted when I read what the Rev Walton, Chaplain of Harvard University has to say: "It does not matter if Christianity is true, but rather can we, as those informed by the teachings of Jesus, make it true." (See this article in the Harvard Gazette)Wow!!! That made me so happy because there is so much truth in what this priest has to say.

It doesn't matter. You don't have to leave the Church and be an atheist. You can still work and do good deeds for the glory of Christ our Lord.

So, you would be content serving a false christ because you are doing good deeds? You don't need a religious belief system to do good deeds, anyone can do that. And remember, good deeds won't win you any favors with Messiah anyways let alone a false messiah.
BTW
Christian Advice Statement of Purpose

Christian Advice is a non-debate area for members to ask and receive Biblically-based, Christian advice for a struggle they are encountering. Christian Advice is a Christians only area, but non-Christians may ask questions if they are seeking advice of a Christian nature. Christian advice is defined as advice which contains basic Christian principles that do not conflict with the site's Statement of Faith. Christian Advice is not a debate forum, nor is it a place to discuss theology. If you wish to debate Christian theology, there are other forums dedicated to that purpose.

Members who post a thread with the intent to give advice, not ask for advice, may either have their thread moved to more appropriate forum, or removed as off topic if there isn't a suitable forum for their thread.

 

[Greg J.]

I was very comforted when I read what the Rev Walton, Chaplain of Harvard University has to say: "It does not matter if Christianity is true, but rather can we, as those informed by the teachings of Jesus, make it true."

Well, it matters a great deal if the claims of Jesus and the inspired words about him are true, regardless of our actions.

See 1 Corinthians 15:12-20. One of the verses is (but read the whole thing):

If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men. (1 Corinthians 15:19, 1984 NIV)

Rev. Walton is making a true statement in the sense that if we genuinely believe in the teachings of Jesus it will result in actions that demonstrate our belief, and if we don't, his words don't mean anything for that unbeliever. However, he is making a statement about what faith is, not Christianity. What he says about "making it true" is something that can be done whether or not someone genuinely believes in the reality of Jesus Christ who died and was raised from the dead, and is alive today as a person in heaven and answers your prayers. I just talked to someone yesterday who believes Christianity is the best way of living, and is trying to live it, but also acknowledges she does not actually believe in Jesus.

Then Jesus said to his disciples, “I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 19:23, 1984 NIV)

The concept Jesus teaches in this passage is not only about money. It is about anyone who has found great comfort in their success/happiness such that they have no reason to seek God. In other words, they have to choose to change their life into one that is less comfortable and happy to find God.

In this particular instance, "it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven" is true about people who have riches of intelligence and have intellectual satisfaction in their understanding of the Bible and Christianity. The most deceptive layer of false reality that Satan has is basically that the Word is all true, except he keeps the person from genuinely believing it. Instead a person has an intellectual recognition that it is all right and logical and results in a kind of belief in the meaning, without belief in the fact that what was written about Jesus is true and actually happened. This is usually referred to as "intellectual assent" as opposed to genuine faith and trust. (One good passage for a self-test would be the transfiguration in Mark 9:2-8 [also in other gospels].).

The Rev. Walton is making a statement from the perspective of an intellectualized version of Christianity, but not real Christianity. His statement doesn't really have its roots in genuinely believing that God is real and Jesus is (presently) who he claimed to be. It's hard to rewrite his statement from the perspective of a believer, but here's one version: "Christ is of no value to you if your faith is such that it does not result in living to please him." (living to please him taken from 2 Corinthians 5:9)

To have genuine "faith" in God means that you trust God—a word in English that is harder to misunderstand, since you can't actually trust something you don't believe exists. ("Faith" has that meaning, but also has others.)

Anyone that is uncertain whether they have genuine saving faith or not needs to ask and keep asking God to grant you to genuinely believe in him, and then live in obedience, which he will use to purify and open your heart. Obedience is hard, but gets easier over the long-term. Be sure one of the things you are obedient in is studying all that he said. It's impossible for the average person to grow in obedience if he isn't able or willing to commit all of himself to God and keep seeking Him for help.

“Therefore come out from them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you.” “I will be a Father to you, and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty.” (2 Corinthians 6:17-18, 1984 NIV)

 

[PapaZoom]

Truth is relative meh

 

[DiscipleHeLovesToo]

Hi,

I've read a lot of threads on CF and a lot of people are upset because they're losing their faith or someone they love is losing the faith. What does losing the faith really mean?

From what I have read, a lot of it is about losing the belief that Christianity is true. I can understand that. Since I started reading a great deal especially during my last school hols, I too have been agonising over the truth (or otherwise) of my religion which means so much to me. I was terrified I'd become an atheist not because I fear hell or fear death or desire eternal life but simply because my life and my entire being have been so enmeshed in my religion that it's now a part of my identity and every cell in my body is stamped "Christian".

I was very comforted when I read what the Rev Walton, Chaplain of Harvard University has to say: "It does not matter if Christianity is true, but rather can we, as those informed by the teachings of Jesus, make it true." (See this article in the Harvard Gazette)Wow!!! That made me so happy because there is so much truth in what this priest has to say.

It doesn't matter. You don't have to leave the Church and be an atheist. You can still work and do good deeds for the glory of Christ our Lord.

I hope this is as edifying to you as it is to me.

Cheers,

StTruth

contrary to popular tradition, God does not want you to do good deeds; He wants to do good deeds through you

what you do for God is to believe Him and be thankful that all He has is yours as a free gift; this will lead to you 'hearing' His still, small voice and following His direction, which will produce more good works and more powerful good works than you can ever do for Him on your own

 

[redleghunter]

Hi,

I've read a lot of threads on CF and a lot of people are upset because they're losing their faith or someone they love is losing the faith. What does losing the faith really mean?

From what I have read, a lot of it is about losing the belief that Christianity is true. I can understand that. Since I started reading a great deal especially during my last school hols, I too have been agonising over the truth (or otherwise) of my religion which means so much to me. I was terrified I'd become an atheist not because I fear hell or fear death or desire eternal life but simply because my life and my entire being have been so enmeshed in my religion that it's now a part of my identity and every cell in my body is stamped "Christian".

I was very comforted when I read what the Rev Walton, Chaplain of Harvard University has to say: "It does not matter if Christianity is true, but rather can we, as those informed by the teachings of Jesus, make it true." (See this article in the Harvard Gazette)Wow!!! That made me so happy because there is so much truth in what this priest has to say.

It doesn't matter. You don't have to leave the Church and be an atheist. You can still work and do good deeds for the glory of Christ our Lord.

I hope this is as edifying to you as it is to me.

Cheers,

StTruth

What does not matter?

 

[redleghunter]

So, you would be content serving a false christ because you are doing good deeds? You don't need a religious belief system to do good deeds, anyone can do that. And remember, good deeds won't win you any favors with Messiah anyways let alone a false messiah.
BTW
Christian Advice Statement of Purpose

Christian Advice is a non-debate area for members to ask and receive Biblically-based, Christian advice for a struggle they are encountering. Christian Advice is a Christians only area, but non-Christians may ask questions if they are seeking advice of a Christian nature. Christian advice is defined as advice which contains basic Christian principles that do not conflict with the site's Statement of Faith. Christian Advice is not a debate forum, nor is it a place to discuss theology. If you wish to debate Christian theology, there are other forums dedicated to that purpose.

Members who post a thread with the intent to give advice, not ask for advice, may either have their thread moved to more appropriate forum, or removed as off topic if there isn't a suitable forum for their thread.

Yes I'm sure the statement of purpose discourages advice on "how to leave the church and be a good apostate."

 

[StTruth]

So, you would be content serving a false christ because you are doing good deeds? You don't need a religious belief system to do good deeds, anyone can do that. And remember, good deeds won't win you any favors with Messiah anyways let alone a false messiah.
BTW
Christian Advice Statement of Purpose

Christian Advice is a non-debate area for members to ask and receive Biblically-based, Christian advice for a struggle they are encountering. Christian Advice is a Christians only area, but non-Christians may ask questions if they are seeking advice of a Christian nature. Christian advice is defined as advice which contains basic Christian principles that do not conflict with the site's Statement of Faith. Christian Advice is not a debate forum, nor is it a place to discuss theology. If you wish to debate Christian theology, there are other forums dedicated to that purpose.

Members who post a thread with the intent to give advice, not ask for advice, may either have their thread moved to more appropriate forum, or removed as off topic if there isn't a suitable forum for their thread.

Hi civilwarbuff

I'm sorry if I have posted in the wrong thread. My intention is to give advice to people after having read a lot of the threads. But in a sense, I need advice too because I am aware that I'm not very experienced in many things and I may be wrong. So I thought posting here has a dual purpose - to give advice to those who are in despair about themselves or loved ones losing the faith AND to gain advice from the many older and wiser Christians in the Forum.

Naturally this seems like the best place to post this. I'm giving advice and I'm seeking the advice, confirmation or correction of other Christians.

Cheers,

StTruth

 

[StTruth]

Well, it matters a great deal if the claims of Jesus and the inspired words about him are true, regardless of our actions.

See 1 Corinthians 15:12-20. One of the verses is (but read the whole thing):

If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men. (1 Corinthians 15:19, 1984 NIV)

Rev. Walton is making a true statement in the sense that if we genuinely believe in the teachings of Jesus it will result in actions that demonstrate our belief, and if we don't, his words don't mean anything for that unbeliever. However, he is making a statement about what faith is, not Christianity. What he says about "making it true" is something that can be done whether or not someone genuinely believes in the reality of Jesus Christ who died and was raised from the dead, and is alive today as a person in heaven and answers your prayers. I just talked to someone yesterday who believes Christianity is the best way of living, and is trying to live it, but also acknowledges she does not actually believe in Jesus.

Then Jesus said to his disciples, “I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 19:23, 1984 NIV)

The concept Jesus teaches in this passage is not only about money. It is about anyone who has found great comfort in their success/happiness such that they have no reason to seek God. In other words, they have to choose to change their life into one that is less comfortable and happy to find God.

In this particular instance, "it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven" is true about people who have riches of intelligence and have intellectual satisfaction in their understanding of the Bible and Christianity. The most deceptive layer of false reality that Satan has is basically that the Word is all true, except he keeps the person from genuinely believing it. Instead a person has an intellectual recognition that it is all right and logical and results in a kind of belief in the meaning, without belief in the fact that what was written about Jesus is true and actually happened. This is usually referred to as "intellectual assent" as opposed to genuine faith and trust. (One good passage for a self-test would be the transfiguration in Mark 9:2-8 [also in other gospels].).

The Rev. Walton is making a statement from the perspective of an intellectualized version of Christianity, but not real Christianity. His statement doesn't really have its roots in genuinely believing that God is real and Jesus is (presently) who he claimed to be. It's hard to rewrite his statement from the perspective of a believer, but here's one version: "Christ is of no value to you if your faith is such that it does not result in living to please him." (living to please him taken from 2 Corinthians 5:9)

To have genuine "faith" in God means that you trust God—a word in English that is harder to misunderstand, since you can't actually trust something you don't believe exists. ("Faith" has that meaning, but also has others.)

Anyone that is uncertain whether they have genuine saving faith or not needs to ask and keep asking God to grant you to genuinely believe in him, and then live in obedience, which he will use to purify and open your heart. Obedience is hard, but gets easier over the long-term. Be sure one of the things you are obedient in is studying all that he said. It's impossible for the average person to grow in obedience if he isn't able or willing to commit all of himself to God and keep seeking Him for help.

“Therefore come out from them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you.” “I will be a Father to you, and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty.” (2 Corinthians 6:17-18, 1984 NIV)

Hi Greg J,

Thanks for your very well-written post. I really appreciate it but I will need time to digest what you've said and read the biblical references contained in it. Like I've said, I do try to read up what the scholars say. My vicar discourages me from reading books 'not meant for someone my age' but I think books should be open to everyone. But I still need the guidance of people who have lived life much longer and experienced things more fully.

Thanks again.

Cheers,

StTruth

 

[StTruth]

contrary to popular tradition, God does not want you to do good deeds; He wants to do good deeds through you

what you do for God is to believe Him and be thankful that all He has is yours as a free gift; this will lead to you 'hearing' His still, small voice and following His direction, which will produce more good works and more powerful good works than you can ever do for Him on your own

Hi DiscipleHeLovesToo

Thanks for your post. I understand what you say and I agree with a lot of it. But I think good deeds are required of us by our Lord. What Jesus says of the sheep and the goats tells me that it's important to do all the social things he says - visit the prisoners, feed the poor, etc. Not doing these things would make us the 'goats' that he says he will cast out. Hence the importance of doing good deeds.

Cheers,

StTruth

 

[StTruth]

Yes I'm sure the statement of purpose discourages advice on "how to leave the church and be a good apostate."

That is false. I am not telling people to leave the church and be an apostate. I'm telling people to stay in the church and listen to the chaplain of Harvard. I gave in the OP a link to the Harvard Gazette and people can read for himself what the good priest says.

 

[Greg J.]

I don't think I would say what your vicar said exactly, but I can suggest a good reason for why he might say that. Being presented with Truth that requires significantly more faith to believe than one has can result in unbelief in Truth that persists even though the person's faith may grow. The kind of unbelief an atheist has at hearing the gospel is that same kind of unbelief, and it has negative consequences. The normal growth of faith requires experiences, which one just can't handle too much of at once. (If you aren't getting enough, then do Philippians 2:3-7 and Mark 9:35).

God always meets those you are trying to follow him at their point of need perfectly, something we need help from the Holy Spirit to do well for another person. If you have accepted a certain pastor as someone God has put over you to help you, then he is responsible to God to some degree regarding your spiritual health (Hebrews 13:17).

With an Internet forum, people of all degrees of faith and understanding write posts that are read by people of all degrees of faith and understanding. (One of the sources of conflict in Internet forums.) It is one of the reasons why having a local (good) church to attend with people with faith to talk to is essential. It is much easier to tell how trustworthy a person's words are in person, in part because you can also talk to people who know you both (and those that know the other person better than you).

Our religion is to know about, know, and love the living God. Strive to do a good job taking care of your side of the child-God relationship. In return you get everything God has in the long-run (all of which is better than we can ask or imagine). He will guide you in your life and take care of all your needs and some of your desires as well (Matthew 6:33, John 15:4-5, Psalms 37:4, and others). Anything that wants to redirect you from that path should be questioned. From a practical perspective, what we are to be about is using the resources to which we have access to work toward Him ("seek" him, "seek his face", obey him, understand him, know him, please him, etc.). All this is possible (and amazing) because God is love (and loves you very much).

 

[StTruth]

I don't think I would say what your vicar said exactly, but I can suggest a good reason for why he might say that. Being presented with Truth that requires significantly more faith to believe than one has can result in unbelief in Truth that persists even though the person's faith may grow. The kind of unbelief an atheist has at hearing the gospel is that same kind of unbelief, and it has negative consequences. The normal growth of faith requires experiences, which one just can't handle too much of at once. (If you aren't getting enough, then do Philippians 2:3-7 and Mark 9:35).

God always meets those you are trying to follow him at their point of need perfectly, something we need help from the Holy Spirit to do well for another person. If you have accepted a certain pastor as someone God has put over you to help you, then he is responsible to God to some degree regarding your spiritual health (Hebrews 13:17).

With an Internet forum, people of all degrees of faith and understanding write posts that are read by people of all degrees of faith and understanding. (One of the sources of conflict in Internet forums.) It is one of the reasons why having a local (good) church to attend with people with faith to talk to is essential. It is much easier to tell how trustworthy a person's words are in person, in part because you can also talk to people who know you both (and those that know the other person better than you).

Our religion is to know about, know, and love the living God. Strive to do a good job taking care of your side of the child-God relationship. In return you get everything God has in the long-run (all of which is better than we can ask or imagine). He will guide you in your life and take care of all your needs and some of your desires as well (Matthew 6:33, John 15:4-5, Psalms 37:4, and others). Anything that wants to redirect you from that path should be questioned. From a practical perspective, what we are to be about is using the resources to which we have access to work toward Him ("seek" him, "seek his face", obey him, understand him, know him, please him, etc.). All this is possible (and amazing) because God is love (and loves you very much).

Thanks. You are very helpful and gracious.

 

[aiki]

From what I have read, a lot of it is about losing the belief that Christianity is true. I can understand that. Since I started reading a great deal especially during my last school hols, I too have been agonising over the truth (or otherwise) of my religion which means so much to me. I was terrified I'd become an atheist not because I fear hell or fear death or desire eternal life but simply because my life and my entire being have been so enmeshed in my religion that it's now a part of my identity and every cell in my body is stamped "Christian".

This may be so, but it by no means guarantees you're actually a true disciple of Christ or child of God. All that you've written here suggests that you don't really know Christ personally as your Saviour and God as your Heavenly Father. Being a Christian, you see, is not merely strongly identifying with a Judeo-Christian religious culture and having a sense of comfort in its rituals and doctrines. To be a Christian is to be indwelt by God's Spirit, the Spirit of Christ (Ro. 8:9-11), who through illumination, conviction, strengthening, comforting, and providence interacts with us daily. To be a Christian is to be an "all-in" follower of Christ, a "living sacrifice" (Ro. 12:1) to God to do with as He will. Is this you? It is hard to imagine that someone who has this experience, this daily fellowship with God, and who has God's Spirit dwelling within them could come to fear apostasizing. Genuine fellowship with God is too rich, too joyful, too deep and real to simply abandon like one would an old pair of shoes that have gone out of fashion.

I was very comforted when I read what the Rev Walton, Chaplain of Harvard University has to say: "It does not matter if Christianity is true, but rather can we, as those informed by the teachings of Jesus, make it true." (See this article in the Harvard Gazette)Wow!!! That made me so happy because there is so much truth in what this priest has to say.

Ugh. What a silly - and false - statement to make. We don't make the teachings of Jesus true; they are already true and it is because this is so that we choose to believe them and live in conformity to them. It is a great fool who tries to make true teachings he has no grounds to think are true. If a teaching is true, one does not have to make it so. It is only if the teaching is not true - false, in other words - that one must do as Reverend Walton suggests. It most certainly does matter, then, if Christianity is true; for if it is not, we ought to abandon it. Only an idiot or a deluded person holds to a belief for which he has no good justification.

It doesn't matter. You don't have to leave the Church and be an atheist. You can still work and do good deeds for the glory of Christ our Lord.

As an atheist, you mean? I certainly hope not! What sort of an atheist would do good deeds for a God in whom he does not believe? That would be enormously inconsistent - and even a bit irrational.

Selah.

 

[ShaulHaTarsi]

While it's good that so many people are fervent in their faith and certainty of the universality of God and His Son, I'm sure that many of you have had your doubts as well. Please note that the perspective here is to encourage those that doubt not to forsake the faith; but rather to know that at the end of the day it is we who are the arbiters of our truth.

Rather than become an atheist, which while "Rationally" equivalent to religion is encouraged by the devil, Truth and its fruits are connected. Having faith bears fruits of faith, and faith can be re-sown and nurtured by performing those works and making an effort.

The point is that our knowledge and understanding of any actual truth is never truly passive. It is indeed the case that He is not limited by our minds and is truly universal, but our attempt at activating this faith and coming to that realization may at times need to be performed. The Holy Spirit works in more than one way.

 

[Rayne49]

Hi,

I've read a lot of threads on CF and a lot of people are upset because they're losing their faith or someone they love is losing the faith. What does losing the faith really mean?

From what I have read, a lot of it is about losing the belief that Christianity is true. I can understand that. Since I started reading a great deal especially during my last school hols, I too have been agonising over the truth (or otherwise) of my religion which means so much to me. I was terrified I'd become an atheist not because I fear hell or fear death or desire eternal life but simply because my life and my entire being have been so enmeshed in my religion that it's now a part of my identity and every cell in my body is stamped "Christian".

I was very comforted when I read what the Rev Walton, Chaplain of Harvard University has to say: "It does not matter if Christianity is true, but rather can we, as those informed by the teachings of Jesus, make it true." (See this article in the Harvard Gazette)Wow!!! That made me so happy because there is so much truth in what this priest has to say.

It doesn't matter. You don't have to leave the Church and be an atheist. You can still work and do good deeds for the glory of Christ our Lord.

I hope this is as edifying to you as it is to me.

Cheers,

StTruth

Hi. I found your post interesting because I too have seen some posts about weakening faith in the short time I've been here. But I wanted to tell you something that someone told me that helped me. It was that we need to stay vigilant in our studies, like we would encourage a new person to do. Kind of like how even a very full glass of water will still succumb to the laws of evaporation, we need to keep filling up on his word lest we allow room for other things to find their way in.

 

[shelley1952]

But I think good deeds are required of us by our Lord. What Jesus says of the sheep and the goats tells me that it's important to do all the social things he says - visit the prisoners, feed the poor, etc. Not doing these things would make us the 'goats' that he says he will cast out. Hence the importance of doing good deeds.

Good deeds has to do with rewards in heaven, it has nothing to do with your salvation. Yes if we love the Lord we should want to please Him. Its like a good marriage, if you love your spouse you want to do things to make them happy, you will do what your spouse wants as long as its not anything against Gods commandments. As far as salvation goes only through the blood of Jesus can you get salvation.

In the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats, we are looking at man redeemed and saved, and man condemned and lost. A casual reading seems to suggest that salvation is the result of good works. The “sheep” acted charitably, giving food, drink, and clothing to the needy. The “goats” showed no charity. This seems to result in salvation for the sheep and damnation for the goats.

However, Scripture does not contradict itself, and the Bible clearly and repeatedly teaches that salvation is by faith through the grace of God and not by our good works (see John 1:12; Acts 15:11; Romans 3:22-24;Romans 4:4-8; Romans 7:24-25; Romans 8:12; Galatians 3:6-9; and Ephesians 2:8-10). In fact, Jesus Himself makes it clear in the parable that the salvation of the “sheep” is not based on their works—their inheritance was theirs “since the creation of the world” (Matthew 25:34), long before they could ever do any good works!

The good works mentioned in the parable are not the cause of salvation but the effect of salvation. As Christians we become like Christ (see Romans 8:29; 2 Corinthians 3:18; and Colossians 2:6-7). Galatians 5:22 tells us that the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, and self-control. Good works in a Christian’s life are the direct overflow of these traits, and are only acceptable to God because of the relationship that exists between servant and Master, the saved and their Savior, the sheep and their Shepherd (see Ephesians 2:10).

The core message of the Parable of the Sheep and Goats is that God’s people will love others. Good works will result from our relationship to the Shepherd. Followers of Christ will treat others with kindness, serving them as if they were serving Christ Himself. The unregenerate live in the opposite manner. While “goats” can indeed perform acts of kindness and charity, their hearts are not right with God, and their actions are not for the right purpose – to honor and worship God.
(parts taken from gotquestions.org)

 

[FutureAndAHope]

"It does not matter if Christianity is true, but rather can we, as those informed by the teachings of Jesus, make it true." (See this article in the Harvard Gazette)Wow!!! That made me so happy because there is so much truth in what this priest has to say.

Hmmm ...read the article. But I don't warm well to the statement, "It does not matter if Christianity is true" ... really it matters a lot.

1Co 15:17-19 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins ... If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

Some Christians give their physical lives, are persecuted to the point of death, to them it certainly matters if Christ was real, and Christianity is true.

But the fact is Christianity is true, I have seen people instantly healed through prayer, one of our family (on my wife's side) who was declared clinically dead, was raised back to life through prayer in Jesus name.

Only a sinful, prayer-less gospel would declare "It does not matter" ...

Sure we are to help the needy, and that is vitally important, but we are also to make Jesus real in our lives. Don't fall for the lie that it does not matter, you must believe in a literal Jesus to be saved.

 

[DiscipleHeLovesToo]

Hi DiscipleHeLovesToo

Thanks for your post. I understand what you say and I agree with a lot of it. But I think good deeds are required of us by our Lord. What Jesus says of the sheep and the goats tells me that it's important to do all the social things he says - visit the prisoners, feed the poor, etc. Not doing these things would make us the 'goats' that he says he will cast out. Hence the importance of doing good deeds.

Cheers,

StTruth

what God wants from you is a relationship; you were a goat, but then received spiritual rebirth - now you're a sheep because of Jesus' good deed at the cross that you received as a free gift. it's not what you do plus what He did that causes God to be pleased with you; it's what you believe about what He did (faith) that pleases Him - your good deeds that endure are those that you do as a result of being in fellowship with Him; the good deeds that you do on your own to please Him are temporary. it isn't your performance that makes you a sheep or a goat - it's what you believe.

Mat 7:21-23 KJV
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[StTruth]

what God wants from you is a relationship; you were a goat, but then received spiritual rebirth - now you're a sheep because of Jesus' good deed at the cross that you received as a free gift. it's not what you do plus what He did that causes God to be pleased with you; it's what you believe about what He did (faith) that pleases Him - your good deeds that endure are those that you do as a result of being in fellowship with Him; the good deeds that you do on your own to please Him are temporary. it isn't your performance that makes you a sheep or a goat - it's what you believe.

Mat 7:21-23 KJV
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Hi DiscipleHeLovesToo

How can you read Mt 7:21-23, quote it and still say "it's not what you do" and insist that "it's what you believe..."? Do you understand verse 21 which you quoted?