Lordship Salvation

[Servus]

I'm struggling to understand this concept. Basically as I understand it so far, salvation entails commitment, obedience and perseverance. But it has been criticized as teaching works based / performance based salvation.

And it's hard for me to get how one can describe it in a plain concise way that excludes performance. One of it's best known teachers, has said point blank that if his salvation was up to him in any way, he would not have it. So it's basically at this time clear as mud to me.

 

[Sabertooth]

We are Saved as we surrender to/follow Jesus, as the Holy Spirit reveals Him to us.
To the undiscerning, that sounds like "works," but our works, by themselves, are too fallible to save us.

We repent when we need to [1 John 1:9].
We need His grace to take up the slack.

Jesus said that the first greatest commandment was to love the Lord, our God, with all our mind, strength, heart & soul.

Even if our works aren't always consistent, that "bent" toward loving Him will be evident, and THAT is basis for receiving Salvation.

He'll Take Care of the Rest, Keith Green (1977)

 

[d taylor]

I'm struggling to understand this concept. Basically as I understand it so far, salvation entails commitment, obedience and perseverance. But it has been criticized as teaching works based / performance based salvation.

And it's hard for me to get how one can describe it in a plain concise way that excludes performance. One of it's best known teachers, has said point blank that if his salvation was up to him in any way, he would not have it. So it's basically at this time clear as mud to me.

Do not waste your time trying to figure out all these confusing work based salvation's and there are many.

No one from these groups that state a repentance from sin for salvation, can explain exactly what that is. Also usually these people push the losing salvation for sinning or the person was never saved to began with.


The way to receive Eternal Life (salvation) is to believe the Jesus is the promised Messiah from the prophecies of the Tanakh and trust in The Messiah for Gods free gift of Eternal Life.

A clear to the point way to Eternal Life not like the obedience lordship salvation message popular with many who think they can help God in/with their salvation.

 

[com7fy8]

Well, when I see your title, "Lordship Salvation", I think of how Jesus Christ is the Lord of all . . . meaning Jesus is ruling all. But the best way to be ruled by Jesus is to be ruled by His own peace in us. And one of the basics of our Christian calling is that we submit to how our Heavenly Father rules each of us with His own peace >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

Basically as I understand it so far, salvation entails commitment, obedience and perseverance.

I would say Biblical lordship means how God in us has us committed and obedient and persevering; so this is not self-produced, but in personal sharing with our Father in His own love with the harmony of His peace ruling us, and with His creativity for how to love each person. This is not self-produced, then >

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

"Therefore submit to God." (in James 4:7)

So, I would say this is basic for lordship salvation which is Biblical.

"'Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:29)

So, in Biblical lordship salvation, we learn from our Lord Jesus and we have His soul rest. His peace is almighty to take care of our thinking and feeling and emotions > "the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus." (in Philippians 4:6-7)

This is what God is committed to. Salvation is about God's commitment and how He succeeds in us.

And Jesus as our Lord in us has us discovering how to relate with other children of God. Jesus is "gentle and lowly in heart", and this has us relating like Jesus >

"with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love." (Ephesians 4:2)

So, I would understand that correct lordship salvation means our attention is to our Lord Jesus and how His grace in us has us becoming and loving. He in us has us putting away anti-love things, so we relate tenderly and with generous forgiving . . . "even as God in Christ forgave you" >

"Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (Ephesians 4:31-32)

 

[Servus]

We are Saved as we surrender/follow Jesus, as the Holy Spirit reveals Him to us.
To the undiscerning, that sounds like "works," but our works, by themselves, are too fallible to save us.

We repent when we need to [1 John 1:9].
We need His grace to take up the slack.

Jesus said that the first greatest commandment was to love the Lord, our God, with all our mind, strength, heart & soul.

Even if our works aren't always consistent, that "bent" toward loving Him will be evident, and THAT is basis for receiving Salvation.

He'll Take Care of the Rest, Keith Green (1977)

There are Christian theologians like Charles Ryrie of the Ryrie Study Bible who have spoken out against it. So I don't know that having a problem with it can be chalked up to lack of discernment.

 

[Albion]

I'm struggling to understand this concept. Basically as I understand it so far, salvation entails commitment, obedience and perseverance. But it has been criticized as teaching works based / performance based salvation.

And it's hard for me to get how one can describe it in a plain concise way that excludes performance. One of it's best known teachers, has said point blank that if his salvation was up to him in any way, he would not have it. So it's basically at this time clear as mud to me.

How about this? A true follower will naturally be committed to doing his best to adhere to the teachings of his leader. If he doesn't try, then he's not much of a disciple, right? But in this case, no one can keep the standards of God (which are nothing less than perfection) no matter how hard they try.

God knows this and so bases our salvation upon our commitment to Him, through Jesus Christ who did the ultimate with works.

It's not our own works that save, therefore, although we are expected to do our best in that arena, but our fidelity.

 

[Servus]

"Lordship Salvation" is a very specific laid out theological viewpoint. I'm hoping to talk with those already familiar with it. Anyone who's unfamiliar with it, I'd say to look it up. There's many articles about it on the internet, but I don't know the best one to post. In my opinion it can't really be properly spoken about without being familiar with it.

 

[Servus]

How about this? A true follower will naturally be committed to doing his best to adhere to the teachings of his leader. If he doesn't try, then he's not much of a disciple, right? But in this case, no one can keep the standards of God (which are nothing less than perfection) no matter how hard they try.

God knows this and so bases our salvation upon our commitment to Him, through Jesus Christ who did the ultimate with works.

It's not our own works that save, therefore, although we are expected to do our best in that arena, but our fidelity.

I understand and agree with most of that, except is salvation dependant on our commitment to Christ or our faith in Christ as our only hope? Because to me it can sound like commitment equals performance. As in how well we do at being committed determines if we receive salvation / justification. As for doing our best, do any of us actually do our litteral best? Or are we only able to desire and strive to do our best?

 

[Albion]

"Lordship Salvation" is a very specific laid out theological viewpoint. I'm hoping to talk with those already familiar with it. Anyone who's unfamiliar with it, I'd say to look it up. There's many articles about it on the internet, but I don't know the best one to post. In my opinion it can't really be properly spoken about without being familiar with it.

Hi. I'm not sure to whom you are responding with that post, but I was replying to this which you wrote:

And it's hard for me to get how one can describe it in a plain concise way that excludes performance. One of it's best known teachers, has said point blank that if his salvation was up to him in any way, he would not have it. So it's basically at this time clear as mud to me.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I'm struggling to understand this concept. Basically as I understand it so far, salvation entails commitment, obedience and perseverance. But it has been criticized as teaching works based / performance based salvation.

And it's hard for me to get how one can describe it in a plain concise way that excludes performance. One of it's best known teachers, has said point blank that if his salvation was up to him in any way, he would not have it. So it's basically at this time clear as mud to me.

The apostle James put some clarity on this. " But someone will say , you have faith and I have deeds, show me your faith without deeds and I will show you my faith by my deeds. " Be blessed.

 

[Servus]

Hi. I'm not sure to whom you are responding with that post, but I was replying to this which you wrote:

I wasn't responding to anyone in this thread.

 

[Albion]

I understand and agree with most of that, except is salvation dependant on our commitment to Christ or our faith in Christ as our only hope?

It's an open question that different people answer in opposite ways. The particular answer depends on what it is that they look to for the answer.

If it's the Bible, then the answer appears definitely to be Faith in Christ as one's Lord and Savior, not to one's own works. But that doesn't mean that DOING good is optional.

Because to me it can sound like commitment equals performance.

It does.

As in how well we do at being committed determines if we receive salvation / justification.

No. None of us can live a lifetime of perfection, but that doesn't mean we are free to disregard Our Lord's call to do good.

...o any of us actually do our litteral best? Or are we only able to desire and strive to do our best?

We cannot answer that with precision. At the judgment we will find out how much we fell short.

But we know that not one of us can do enough or often enough or do the works that are of the highest value. It is, therefore, the merit of Christ's work that we are allowed, by Faith, to appropriate. If it were not so, we would have no hope.

 

[Servus]

The apostle James put some clarity on this. " But someone will say , you have faith and I have deeds, show me your faith without deeds and I will show you my faith by my deeds. " Be blessed.

I've seen James 2:14-26 used regarding this. Which is pitted against Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God" (NKJV).

 

[Albion]

There isn't a conflict between those two passages. Note that James is responding to those who "SAY" they have Faith. It--merely claiming to be a believer--cannot save anyone, says James.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I've seen James 2:14-26 used regarding this. Which is pitted against Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God" (NKJV).

There is no pitting against each other. It is merely taking verses out of context to fit a paradigm or theological view. These two verses speak of the same thing. Salvation through grace, the gift, with works as evidence of that salvation. It works perfectly together when one is regenerated with the power of the Holy Spirit.The new man will display works of righteousness.

 

[Servus]

It's an open question that different people answer in opposite ways. The particular answer depends on what it is that they look to for the answer.

If it's the Bible, then the answer appears definitely to be Faith in Christ as one's Lord and Savior, not to one's own works. But that doesn't mean that DOING good is optional.

Okay, but is doing good a requirement of salvation? That's the question being asked regarding the concept of Lordship Salvation. And so far the answer to me that I've muddled out so far is both yes and no. I don't mean the answer I received from you, I mean in what I have tried to understand before I started this thread. I actually corresponded with a teacher who hosts a call-in bible answer radio program who teaches Lordship Salvation and it's his lengthy answers that were unclear to me.

The history of this is "Lordship Salvation" theology vs "Free Grace" theology. The Free Grace camp calls Lordship Salvation "works based salvation", while the Lordship Salvation camp calls Free Grace "cheap grace" or "easy believism".

 

[Albion]

Okay, but is doing good a requirement of salvation? That's the question being asked regarding the concept of Lordship Salvation. And so far the answer to me that I've muddled out so far is both yes and no.

I don't mean the answer I received from you, I mean in what I have tried to understand before I started this thread. I actually corresponded with a teacher who hosts a call-in bible answer radio program who teaches Lordship Salvation and it's his lengthy answers that were unclear to me.

Okay. I cannot speak for any "Lordship Salvation" people, but I can only try to explain the conventional position. To your question here, my answer has to be
"yes."

Doing good is a requirement, but only because it verifies one's saving Faith and, as we'd both agree, goodness is right in itself. However, the works do not pile up merit for the person doing them which in turn count towards that person making the grade with God or, instead, falling short.

 

[Servus]

There is no pitting against each other. It is merely taking verses out of context to fit a paradigm or theological view. These two verses speak of the same thing. Salvation through grace, the gift, with works as evidence of that salvation. It works perfectly together when one is regenerated with the power of the Holy Spirit.The new man will display works of righteousness.

But what are those works? And to what level and what amount and what length?

I'm not trying to argue against this, but trying to get it settled in my mind.

 

[Servus]

Okay. I cannot speak for any "Lordship Salvation" people, but I can only try to explain the conventional position. To your question here, my answer has to be
"yes."

Doing good is a requirement, but only because it verifies one's saving Faith and, as we'd both agree, goodness is right in itself. However, the works do not pile up merit for the person doing them which in turn count towards that person making the grade with God or, instead, falling short.

Sorry, not meaning at all to be obstinate, but that still doesn't register. It still sounds like whether a person is saved or not depends on how good they do. As for works piling up as merit, I've been taught that's exactly what works do and are the basis of what heavenly rewards we receive as described in 1 Corinthians 3:12-15

"Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."

That seems to me to indicate that one can be saved without producing acceptable works, but at great loss.

For me personally the loss of reward wouldn't be as bad as having disappointed my Lord.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

But what are those works? And to what level and what amount and what length?

You are missing the point. A regenerated Christian does not keep track of works. It is part of the new man . We walk with His Holy Spirit daily. Have you ever experienced a deed that seems somewhat out of character ? It can be enigmatic at times yet perfect when we know it is His power that works through us.