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Lord's supper

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Mary of Bethany

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Joykins said:
I don't think the early church precisely taught transubstantiation. Even the Orthodox today don't believe precisely that.

Correct. We definitely believe in the Real Presence, but we don't try to define the "how". We leave it at Mystery. We even call the sacrament the "Holy Mysteries".

I think some people think that belief in the Real Presence = transubstantiation, but it doesn't. :wave:

Mary
 
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Schroeder

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i am quaker and we do not teach either communion or water baptism. for one neither are commanded by Christ or the apostles. Both were done for a time for one reason or another. water baptism was used because it was common to do such in ther day to show association with a group or teaching of a person. 1 Cor. 1:10-17 shows this. communion was done most likely but is never really shown in scripture. the closest is in 1 cor 10, 11. in chapter 100 he is speaking of how we are to live. the Cup is the lords sacrifice. it is when we believed in his sacrifice and received the Spirit. the bread is our being within the Church or body of christ. If you read in verse 21-22 it shows this sympolism well. The cup(our salvation) can not be shared with our passed life in sin. we cant be saved and act like we are not. as is the same with the bread. Christ is the bread and is our body. so we can not be partakers of the cup( chrsit blood for our salvation) and the bread (his spirit and our being in the Church) and also still be who we was before our salvation. it is sympolism. in 1 cor 11:20 shows they did not understand this sympolism mentioned in chapter 10. verse 27 says any who eats the bread and drinks the cup in a unworthy manner will bring judgement unto himself. but have you seen anyone get hysically sick when they do this. no BUT you will see someone get ill mentally and physical if he tries to say he is saved and received the blessings of the cup and bread(his blood and spirit, our salvaion) and still live in the old self of sin. And in verse 33 does it say how to do this ordanance proberly, no. he doesnt even make it sound like it is a command or ever was one. Also read john 6:25-59 it shows this sympolism as well. COmmunion is how you spen time with christ how you live your life for him. it is not a ordanance at all in the since it has turned into. Read these verses then read john 6:60-63. "The words i have spoken to you are Spirit and they are life. then read the account of the passover meal. you might get why Christ spoke about the bread and wine. It wasnt new he spoke of it here and explains what they mean, And why he would bring it up again right before his sacrifice and ressurection. So they would understand his death and ressurrection and belief and the Spirit baptism. i might add i do not teach against them being used. just that it is not done or explained correctly most of the time.
 
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mlqurgw

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Mary of Bethany said:
Correct. We definitely believe in the Real Presence, but we don't try to define the "how". We leave it at Mystery. We even call the sacrament the "Holy Mysteries".

I think some people think that belief in the Real Presence = transubstantiation, but it doesn't. :wave:

Mary
Transubstantiation and transmutation are different htings. I actually believe in neither.
 
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mlqurgw

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Danfrey said:
I may have this wrong because I haven't actually studied it in years so...
Transubstantiation, I believe, is the view that Christ is in the elements and transmutation is that the elements actually become the body and blood. I believe the Roman Catholics hold to transmutation and the Presbyterians transubstantiation. They both, IIRC, hold that it is a sacrament by which grace is imparted. I believe the elements are just bread and wine and are symbols of Christ's death. I do not believe grace is imparted in the ordinance. I also think this has been the historical Baptist view.
 
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DeaconDean

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"Transubstantiation (from Latin transsubstantiatio) is the change of the substance of bread and wine into that of the body and blood of Christ, the change that according to the belief of the Roman Catholic Church occurs in the Eucharist."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transubstantiation

Lutheranism

Lutherans believe that within the Eucharistic celebration the body and blood of Jesus Christ are objectively present "in, with, and under the forms" of bread and wine (cf. Book of Concord). They place great stress on Jesus' instructions to "take and eat", and "take and drink", holding that this is the proper, divinely ordained use of the sacrament, and, while giving it due reverence, scrupulously avoid any actions that might indicate or lead to superstition or unworthy fear of the sacrament. However, Luther explicitly rejected transsubstantiation, believing that the bread and wine remained fully bread and fully wine while also being fully the body and blood of Jesus Christ. Luther instead emphasized the Real Presence. This is sometimes mischaracterized as consubstantiation, which Luther also rejected.
[edit]
http://www.christianforums.com/
Other Protestants

Many Protestant denominations hold that Holy Communion merely symbolically commemorates or memorializes Jesus' Last Supper with the disciples; this belief is known as "symbolism", "commemoration", or "transignification". Some fundamentalist Protestants see any doctrine of the real presence as idolatry, worshipping mere bread and wine as if it were God.
Others, such as some Presbyterian denominations, profess belief in the Real Presence, but offer explanations other than transubstantiation. Classical Presbyterianism held the Calvinist view of "pneumatic" presence or "spiritual feeding." However, when the Presbyterian Church (USA) signed the Formula of Agreement with the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, both affirmed belief in the Real Presence."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transubstantiation

"An overview of The Lord's Supper - Charles Hodge

In the Lord's Supper we are said to receive Christ and the benefits of His redemption to our spiritual nourishment and growth in grace. As our natural food imparts life and strength to our bodies, so this sacrament is one of the divinely appointed means to strengthen the principle of life in the soul of the believer and to confirm his faith in the promises of the gospel. By partaking of the bread and wine, the symbols of Christ's body and blood given for us, we are united to Him as our head, our life. He then works in us to will and to do of His own good pleasure. He works in us according to the laws of our nature in the production of everything that is good, so that it is from Him that all holy desires, all good counsels, and all just works proceed. It is not, therefore, we that live, but Christ that liveth in us.

What our Lord said to the apostles He says in the most impressive manner in this ordinance to every believing communicant: "This is my body, broken for you... this is my blood shed for you." These words when received by faith fill the heart with joy, confidence, gratitude, love, and devotion, so that the believer rises from the Lord's table refreshed by the infusion of a new life.

The efficacy of this sacrament, according to the Reformed doctrine, is not to be referred to any virtue in the ordinance itself, whether in its elements or actions; much less to any virtue in the administrator; nor to the mere power of the truths which it signifies; nor to the inherent divine power in the word or promise by which it is attended; nor to the real presence of the material body and blood of Christ (i.e., of the body born of the Virgin), whether by the way of transubstatination, consubstantiaition. or impanation; but only to the blessing of Christ and the working of His Spirit in them that receive the sacrament of His body and blood.

To summarize the Reformed position: The Lord's Supper is a holy ordinance instituted by Christ as a memorial of His death wherein, under the symbols of bread and wine, His body as broken and His blood as shed for the remission of sins are signified and, by the power of the Holy Ghost. sealed and applied to believers. Thereby their union with Christ and their mutual fellowship are set forth and confirmed, their faith strengthened, and their souls nourished unto eternal life.

In this sacrament Christ is present not bodily, but spiritually - not in the sense of local nearness, but of efficacious operation. His people receive Him not with the mouth, but by faith; they do not receive His flesh and blood as material particles, but His body as broken and His blood as shed. The union thus signified and effected is not a corporeal union, not a mixture of substances, but a spiritual and mystical union due to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The efficacy of this sacrament as a means of grace is not in the signs, nor in the service, nor in the minister, nor in the word, but in the attending influence of the Holy Ghost."

http://www.glenwoodhills.org/etc/printer-friendly.asp?ID=367
 
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Schroeder

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Schroeder said:
i am quaker and we do not teach either communion or water baptism. for one neither are commanded by Christ or the apostles. Both were done for a time for one reason or another. water baptism was used because it was common to do such in ther day to show association with a group or teaching of a person. 1 Cor. 1:10-17 shows this. communion was done most likely but is never really shown in scripture. the closest is in 1 cor 10, 11. in chapter 100 he is speaking of how we are to live. the Cup is the lords sacrifice. it is when we believed in his sacrifice and received the Spirit. the bread is our being within the Church or body of christ. If you read in verse 21-22 it shows this sympolism well. The cup(our salvation) can not be shared with our passed life in sin. we cant be saved and act like we are not. as is the same with the bread. Christ is the bread and is our body. so we can not be partakers of the cup( chrsit blood for our salvation) and the bread (his spirit and our being in the Church) and also still be who we was before our salvation. it is sympolism. in 1 cor 11:20 shows they did not understand this sympolism mentioned in chapter 10. verse 27 says any who eats the bread and drinks the cup in a unworthy manner will bring judgement unto himself. but have you seen anyone get hysically sick when they do this. no BUT you will see someone get ill mentally and physical if he tries to say he is saved and received the blessings of the cup and bread(his blood and spirit, our salvaion) and still live in the old self of sin. And in verse 33 does it say how to do this ordanance proberly, no. he doesnt even make it sound like it is a command or ever was one. Also read john 6:25-59 it shows this sympolism as well. COmmunion is how you spen time with christ how you live your life for him. it is not a ordanance at all in the since it has turned into. Read these verses then read john 6:60-63. "The words i have spoken to you are Spirit and they are life. then read the account of the passover meal. you might get why Christ spoke about the bread and wine. It wasnt new he spoke of it here and explains what they mean, And why he would bring it up again right before his sacrifice and ressurection. So they would understand his death and ressurrection and belief and the Spirit baptism. i might add i do not teach against them being used. just that it is not done or explained correctly most of the time.
SO AM I WRONG IN MY VIEW. I CANT SEEM TO GET ANYONE TO RESPOND TO THIS VIEWPOINT.
 
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Danfrey

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Schroeder said:
SO AM I WRONG IN MY VIEW. I CANT SEEM TO GET ANYONE TO RESPOND TO THIS VIEWPOINT.

I love the Peace stand of the Quaker Church, but I am afraid that the Early Christians would have disagreed with the Quaker view of Baptism and Communion.
 
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tulc

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that is a pretty thick paragrah there, lets see if I can spread it out a little:
Schroeder said:
I am Quaker and we do not teach either communion or water baptism.
for one neither are commanded by Christ or the apostles.
Both were done for a time for one reason or another.
water baptism was used because it was common to do such in their day to show association with a group or teaching of a person.
1 Cor. 1:10-17 shows this.
communion was done most likely but is never really shown in scripture.
the closest is in 1 cor 10, 11. in chapter 10 he is speaking of how we are to live.
the Cup is the lords sacrifice.
it is when we believed in his sacrifice and received the Spirit. the bread is our being within the Church or body of Christ.
If you read in verse 21-22 it shows this symbolism well.
The cup (our salvation) can not be shared with our passed life in sin.
we cant be saved and act like we are not.
as is the same with the bread.
Christ is the bread and is our body.
so we can not be partakers of the cup (Christ blood for our salvation) and the bread (his spirit and our being in the Church) and also still be who we was before our salvation.
it is symbolism.
in 1 cor 11:20 shows they did not understand this symbolism mentioned in chapter 10. verse 27 says any who eats the bread and drinks the cup in a unworthy manner will bring judgment unto himself.
but have you seen anyone get physically sick when they do this?
no BUT you will see someone get ill mentally and physical if he tries to say he is saved and received the blessings of the cup and bread (his blood and spirit, our salvation) and still live in the old self of sin.
And in verse 33 does it say how to do this ordinance properly?
no.
he doesn't even make it sound like it is a command or ever was one.
Also read john 6:25-59 it shows this symbolism as well.
Communion is how you spend time with Christ how you live your life for him.
it is not a ordinance at all in the since it has turned into.
Read these verses then read john 6:60-63.
"The words I have spoken to you are Spirit and they are life.
then read the account of the Passover meal.
you might get why Christ spoke about the bread and wine.
It wasn't new he spoke of it here and explains what they mean, And why he would bring it up again right before his sacrifice and resurrection.
So they would understand his death and resurrection and belief and the Spirit baptism.
I might add I do not teach against them being used.
just that it is not done or explained correctly most of the time.
is this right?
tulc(just wondering) :)
 
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tulc

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I don't understand why you say it's not supposed to be done now? Why shouldn't we practice baptism or communion? I have no problem with you forgoing it but why should we?
tulc(who's been baptised at least 6 different ways and taken lots of communion!) ;)
 
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Schroeder

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tulc said:
I don't understand why you say it's not supposed to be done now? Why shouldn't we practice baptism or communion? I have no problem with you forgoing it but why should we?
tulc(who's been baptised at least 6 different ways and taken lots of communion!) ;)
i didnt say it shouldnt i said that it is taught incorrectly. it is not commanded to be done especially as a sacrament or ordanance. the fact that you have been baptised that many timnes should explain why. the only reason it was used in scripture was to show your commitment or association with this group or teaching. had nothing to do with salvation or sins or joining the Church or representing his sacrifice. in a since it may have turned into that but i dont think it was at the begging. there is no reference or describtion of its use or purpose in any of the letters to the Churches. Seeing how important it is seems to be now why nor much then. and the very idea of PAul saying he was not sent to do such a thing. he wrote most of the new testement. And he ONLY spoke of it as a association process. 1cor 1:12-15, you see he is saying they did it to associate themselves with the teacher NOT who they were teaching about. They were to be water baptised to show they associated with CHRIST not the teacher. it is the same idea in chpt. 10-11 with communion, they didnt get the idea right at all. being what i explained in the above post. Read 1 cor 10-11 and then Rom 14:13-18. compare them and post me back on what you think.
 
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DeaconDean said:
I hate to be the first to post but since this is your first communion here goes. Being as since you posted and asked in the Baptist/Anabaptist area, I'll attempt to show what we believe. The Baptist/Anabaptist believe that the communion, or Lord's Supper if you will, is a memorial service we do in accordance to Jesus' commandmant.

"And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me." -Lk. 22:19

Further weight is added by Paul's testimony to the Corinthian church when he was trying to show why there should be disharmony at the Lord's Supper:

"And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come." -1 Cor. 11:24-26

Did you see that? We observe this ordinance to show the Lord's death until He returns. And as for who should participate? The Baptist, I'm not 100% sure about the Anabaptist, practice a "closed communion." And by that I mean that anyone of the Baptist faith who believes in the same thing as we do are free to partake of the cup and the bread. It is closed to other denominations for the simple reason that their beliefs in communion is vastly different than ours. For example: the Baptist believe that communion is just like a memorial service (for lack of better words), while, (do not bash me for my opinions people) the Catholic church believe that after the priest says prayer over the cup and the bread, it is changed to the cup actually containing the blood of Christ and the bread actually becomes the body of Christ. Now the reason I said that is purely for illustration sake, I'm not putting down anybody of the Catholic faith, so don't bash me or say I'm bashing them, because I'm not. That is why we call it a "closed communion." I would not go to a Catholic church and partake simply because our beliefs are so different. Likewise, they probably feel the same way. Here is the "official" position of the Southern Baptist Convention on Baptism and the Lord's Supper:

VII. Baptism and the Lord's Supper
Christian baptism is the immersion of a believer in water in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is an act of obedience symbolizing the believer's faith in a crucified, buried, and risen Saviour, the believer's death to sin, the burial of the old life, and the resurrection to walk in newness of life in Christ Jesus. It is a testimony to his faith in the final resurrection of the dead. Being a church ordinance, it is prerequisite to the privileges of church membership and to the Lord's Supper.
The Lord's Supper is a symbolic act of obedience whereby members of the church, through partaking of the bread and the fruit of the vine, memorialize the death of the Redeemer and anticipate His second coming.
Matthew 3:13-17; 26:26-30; 28:19-20; Mark 1:9-11; 14:22-26; Luke 3:21-22; 22:19-20; John 3:23; Acts 2:41-42; 8:35-39; 16:30-33; 20:7; Romans 6:3-5; 1 Corinthians 10:16,21; 11:23-29; Colossians 2:12.
http://www.sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asphttp://www.sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp

Awesome post and explains well Biblically about communion. :)

My church has an open communion to all believers. My pastor does use 1 Corinthians while reminding and giving members time to pray and reflect to see if their life is right spiritually at that moment and if not to repent of any unrepented sins BEFORE taking communion if they choose to do so. It is a quiet respectful time that we have once a month on Sunday nights. We have a time of songs, prayers and sometimes testimonies. :)
 
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Mysterium_Fidei

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Wow! This is such a sensitive issue for so many Christians, it's great to see everyone has kept a level head. What a wonderful example of kindness! I don't agree exactly with several of the positions posted about, but they were all posted in charity and respect.
 
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constance

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Hi Mike,

Anyone who is "Right with God" and their brethren should participate.
1 Corinthians 11 26-33
For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.

Our church has communion every week - it makes it a lot easier to "think about it".

In addition, my husband's seminary has dinner every Monday, and we usually end up having communion there too!

Constance
 
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