Looking Forward to Celestial Glory!

[happyinhisgrace]

Most people that I come into contact with. Which (admittedly) is a rather small sample.



Oh, I agree. There's much to be said for Atheistic Humanism. I have two very good friends in this category. His favourite saying is:

I don't drink or smoke. So I could be a good Mormon if I didn't drink tea and coffee.
I believe in being kind and helpful to others. So I could be a good Christian if only I believed in Christ!

But that is the whole point...it is not whether or not we drink coffee or a glass of wine or whether we get upset with others at times that determines if we are Christian, it is our trust in Jesus and Him ALONE to save us to Heaven to live with God forever. Christ is the basis of Christianity, not our habits.

Grace

 

[chaindog]

Hadya going there, didn't I?


The Mormons sure hate to admit what they actually believe:
After men have got their exaltation and their crowns---have become Gods, even the sons of God---are made Kings of kings and Lords of lords, they have power then of propagating their species in spirit; and that is the first of their operations with regard to organizing a world. Power is then given to them to organize the elements, and then commence the organization of tabernacles. (Brigham Young, JD 6:275.)

Mormons are not alone in believing that humans who follow Christ will ascend. Here is a quote from the Gospel of Thomas (Nag Hammadi library):

13 Jesus said to his disciples, "Compare me to something and tell me what I am like."

Simon Peter said to him, "You are like a just messenger."

Matthew said to him, "You are like a wise philosopher."

Thomas said to him, "Teacher, my mouth is utterly unable to say what you are like."

Jesus said, "I am not your teacher. Because you have drunk, you have become intoxicated from the bubbling spring that I have tended."

And he took him, and withdrew, and spoke three sayings to him. When Thomas came back to his friends they asked him, "What did Jesus say to you?"

Thomas said to them, "If I tell you one of the sayings he spoke to me, you will pick up rocks and stone me, and fire will come from the rocks and devour you."

This was written the during the same time period as much of the new testament, including John. Many Christians believed this before Constantine's thugs started persecuting heretics and burning heretical scripture. If the idea seems wacky, which I assume is why you brought it up, it is because the founders of your church did their best to cover up what was once widely accepted.

Chaindog

 

[Tawhano]

Swart said:
This is probably one of the best definitions I have heard. I would like to see it backed up by scripture, if that is possible.

Not sure what you want here seeing that I did post two verses to backup my view. Here is some more in case that is what you were asking for.

When the Holy Spirit fell on the gentiles Peter knew that it was of God and that Jesus prophesied that this would take place after he left.

Acts 11:14-17 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved. And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as [he did] unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

John 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The Holy Spirit is given as a seal by God to those who believe and receive the new covenant herald in by Christ.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 76:51 - 53)
51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—
52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;
53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.

The Holy Spirit of Promise. What promise was that?

Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, [that] I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

Acts 2:16-17 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

After Christ ascended into heaven 120 people waited as commanded until this promise was first manifested; The Baptism of the Holy Spirit. It was then and then only that these people cease to be believers only and became partakers, Christians. Christians means ‘of Christ’. Christ means ‘the anointed’. The anointing comes God by the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

In which Christians likewise shall be anointed.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, [is] God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

And who, not having this anointing is none of his.

Romans 8:8-9 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Swart said:
I would still find it difficult to accuse someone of not being a Christian. I think that would put me on very shaky ground.

I also find the logic of saying "X church is not Christian, therefore everyone who goes to church X is not a Christian" is ver dubious to say the least.

The problem I see in your belief is that it doesn’t follow what your church’s doctrine teaches. Careful examination of your scriptures show that in order to be a Christian one has to have priesthood authority to become such, to wit; a holder of the priesthood lays hands on you.

I agree about the shaky ground.

 

[Breetai]

Although I don't know Hebrew, I've read in the footnotes in my Bible that ancient Hebrew did not have tenses. There would be no difference between saying I ran, I run, I will run. That is why there is some debate as to whether some passages are prophecy, description of current events, or references to past events.

I have not verified that this is true from any other source. Perhaps there are some Hebrew scholars lurking around?

That is true, it does not have tenses. But it does have inflected forms such as perfect/imperfect, complete/imcomplete. Usually you can tell if something is in the past or not from this.

My Hebrew is very shaky, but I do know some basics. I'm better at greek.

 

[Der Alte]

Mormons are not alone in believing that humans who follow Christ will ascend. Here is a quote from the Gospel of Thomas (Nag Hammadi library):

13 Jesus said to his disciples, "Compare me to something and tell me what I am like."

Simon Peter said to him, "You are like a just messenger."

Matthew said to him, "You are like a wise philosopher."

Thomas said to him, "Teacher, my mouth is utterly unable to say what you are like."

Jesus said, "I am not your teacher. Because you have drunk, you have become intoxicated from the bubbling spring that I have tended."

And he took him, and withdrew, and spoke three sayings to him. When Thomas came back to his friends they asked him, "What did Jesus say to you?"

Thomas said to them, "If I tell you one of the sayings he spoke to me, you will pick up rocks and stone me, and fire will come from the rocks and devour you."

This was written the during the same time period as much of the new testament, including John. Many Christians believed this before Constantine's thugs started persecuting heretics and burning heretical scripture. If the idea seems wacky, which I assume is why you brought it up, it is because the founders of your church did their best to cover up what was once widely accepted.

Chaindog

Garbage! Total rotting garbage! First, you know diddly about Constantine. Have you ever read anything written by the historians Lactantius or Eusebius, who lived at the time of Constantine? Have you ever read any histories written within 1-2 generations of Constantine? No, you have not! You have been reading and listening to the lies and garbage of uninformed revisionists.

How do you know when the so-called gospel of Thomas was written? And, how do you know it is not the psychotic ramblings of some mentally deficient mad man? Just because some writings were found buried in the sand does not make them authentic. Even the LDS claim their primary scriptures were found buried in the ground after hundreds of years.

Evidently your god is weak and powerless, he can’t even preserve his word. It appears all your god could do was bury one copy of Thomas in the sand for almost 2000 years. My God said in Isaiah 55:11

So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it.​

My God said He would build His church on The Rock and the gates of hell would not prevail against it. According to what you are trying to sell, the gates of hell prevailed against your god for 2000 years.

A lot of people around here are just like the Greek philosophers Paul preached to, they spend their time wanting to hear some new thing.

 

[Der Alte]

More on the so-called gospel of Thomas. Here is the conclusion of an article at the Christian Think Tank, with a link to the complete article and a similar article at Tektonics.

Conclusions:

The GTh is late (150-200ad), not early (50-75ad). It dates from AFTER the completion and collation of the FourFold gospel.

The GTh may contain an authentic extra-biblical tradition or two (a subject we did NOT discuss here--for discussion, see JUF:217ff, Hofius in GAG:336-360), but by and large is dependent on ALL the canonical gospels in their finished form.

Since it appears in history 100-150 years later than the alleged Sayings Document called "Q", its value to demonstrate the existence of such a genre as "Sayings Document" is negligible. As a late document, is looks more like popular theme books of today--"The Parables of Jesus" or "The Gaililean Miracles"--subsets of the Gospel data for specific purposes, as opposed to a comprehensive statement of the "gospel". (The use of "gospel" at the end of the document carries precious little weight in this regard, since by this time the gospel genre had been so stretched by the flood of apocryphal gospels as to be meaningless.)

The fact that this single document can witness to the general availability of the Fourfold gospel in the mid-late 2nd century has implications for canonical studies. It demonstrates that the Fourfold gospel was accepted as the ONLY authoritative source for teaching--by the very fact that its citations were predominantly from those gospels! And the fact that the four gospels were available to a single redactor at that time confirms the rather rapid and frequent distribution and exchange of Christian literature in the period (cf. BREC:82ff).

To the Christian, this bare-bones gnostic "How to work your way to heaven" document should remind us vividly of the completeness of God's provision for our salvation in Christ. He broke into history, joined our "matter" in solidarity, and MADE a way--not just SHOWED a way! He "shrank not back from death" and did MORE than just reveal truth; He also unleashed grace (John 1!).

Glenn Miller, 8/24/96

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/gthomas.html

http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_04_01_02.html
​

​

 

[Breetai]

My advice...
listen to Der Alter on this stuff.

 

[Rescued One]

I also find the logic of saying "X church is not Christian, therefore everyone who goes to church X is not a Christian" is ver dubious to say the least.

If you are Christian, are you going to continue following a false prophet or is the Holy Spirit going to guide you into all truth? So, yes, a Christian can be in a cult, but, no, a Christian will not stay there.

 

[Swart]

Thanks for the scriptural quotes. I will study them later.

The problem I see in your belief is that it doesn?t follow what your church?s doctrine teaches. Careful examination of your scriptures show that in order to be a Christian one has to have priesthood authority to become such, to wit; a holder of the priesthood lays hands on you.

I agree about the shaky ground.

Rule 1: Don't tell someone what they believe. You will usually be wrong.

LDS do not claim to be the only Christians. A cursory examination of statements from church leaders and LDS scripture will clearly show this.

Yes. Priesthood authourity is required for Baptism and other ordinances. Baptism is the ordinance required for entry into the Kingdom of God on earth (the Church). The Church has a mission to assist in the fulfillment of the work of Christ. LDS draw a distinction between the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven. We fully recognise that not all who are members of the Kingdom of God will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, and not all that enter the Kingdom of Heaven will are members of the Kingdom of God.

The HG is above Law and can work with whosever it pleases. The are many, many of God's people in other churches and denominations, so that God can work his purposes here on Earth. Quite simply, he puts his people where they can be of most use. I have maintained for a long time that many people are not brought to us because we are not ready for them.

In our branch we tried hard to bring our lives as in tune with the HG as we could. It worked like magic! People came to us out of the woodwork, saying, "I just had a feeling we should come here for some reason."

I believe this is true for any church. If you stick close the the teachings of the saviour and try to bring your lives as close as possible to the saviour's example - he will send his people to you. If you stray from the teachings - he will remove them.

This is the crux of the matter. The great challenge to Christianity is not in the different beliefs, but in the lack of belief. We have more agnostics and atheists now than at any other time in history. The more people are focused on debate and argument over who is right, the more that Christianity will become a minority religion in the world that can be neglected, abused and persecuted.

Then we will feel the power of Satan as our jobs, our homes, our families and our freedom are taken from us because we will not deny Christ. I believe that there will come a time in the not to distant future where the persecutions we receive will mirror that experienced in the 1st Century. In that time when we are lined up to receive our Earthly judgements we will learn to call each other brothers in Christ.

 

[Swart]

If you are Christian, are you going to continue following a false prophet or is the Holy Spirit going to guide you into all truth? So, yes, a Christian can be in a cult, but, no, a Christian will not stay there.

This has to be the most circular argument I have ever seen!

It's worse than what one COTMC once said to me "The great danger of your religion is that it is so similar to Christianity that you can't tell the difference."

The Holy Spirit DOES guide me into all truth. That Jesus is the Christ. That he has restored his church again to the Earth in these last days. That we have a living Prophet and 12 apostles on the earth as special witnesses of Jesus Christ. That we have another testament of Jesus Christ in the Book of Mormon.

I know these things of no man. The Holy Spirit of God has born witness of these things to me.

 

[happyinhisgrace]

If you are Christian, are you going to continue following a false prophet or is the Holy Spirit going to guide you into all truth? So, yes, a Christian can be in a cult, but, no, a Christian will not stay there.

Gwit, I agree with this 100% and the reason I agree with it is because once you have the true Jesus and have been indwelled with the Holy Spirit, you can not continue to embrace false teachings for very long because the Holy Spirit will convict you of the falsehoods and lead you away from them. Some people are very stubborn (like I was) and have a really hard time letting go of that "god complex" so they will continue in a false belief for awhile hoping to somehow, some way find a loop hole that justifies them remaining in darkness, however, the Holy Spirit will continue to convict a believer of truth until they realize that it not only is unbenificial to be involved in false teaching but it is against God to do so. That person who has become a believer will sooner or later leave the false docterines and darkness of false prophets and denounce them. Usually it happens sooner than later but like I said, some of us are stubborn so it took us longer to "let go and let God".

Grace

 

[Tawhano]

Swart said:
Rule 1: Don't tell someone what they believe. You will usually be wrong.

I agree, however I didn’t tell you what you believed. Read my statement again and you will see that after you told me what you believed I said your church’s doctrine teaches otherwise. I know this because I have read it myself. To be a Christian, as I have shown in scripture, you have to have the sealing of the Holy Spirit. According to your doctrine this can only happen with the laying on of hands by someone in authority to do so, to wit; a priesthood holder. Is this not correct?

 

[Swart]

I agree, however I didn?t tell you what you believed. Read my statement again and you will see that after you told me what you believed I said your church?s doctrine teaches otherwise. I know this because I have read it myself. To be a Christian, as I have shown in scripture, you have to have the sealing of the Holy Spirit. According to your doctrine this can only happen with the laying on of hands by someone in authority to do so, to wit; a priesthood holder. Is this not correct?

As was practiced int NT times, the Gift of the Holy Ghost is given by the laying on of hands. Once someone has received this "baptism of fire", they can have the HG as a constant companion. They are also entitled to the blessing of spiritual gifts, either singularly or multiply as the HG sees fit. Some may receive the gift of prophecy, others the gift of discernment, another the gift of healing, the gift of tongues and interpretation of tongues etc. These gifts are a manifestation of the HG.

To say we believe someone can only have the HG by receiving it by the laying on of hands is not what we believe. In fact, you only have to look at one of the requirements of baptism, one must receive an answer to their prayers through the Holy Ghost before baptism. Although we use a different terminology, what this effectively means is one must become a Christian BEFORE they are baptised.

John 3:3 states:

"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

This is the initial state of receiving the HG. Only the HG can show someone where the "Kingdom of God" (the church) is. Once a person recognises the Kingdom of God, they then enter it through Baptism and the laying on of hands for the Gift of the Holy Ghost in verse 5:

"Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

born again = Sealed by the HG (what LDS call "gaining a testimony")
born of water = Baptism
born of the spirit = Gift of the HG

In short, we see a difference in being sealed by the HG and receiving the Gift of th HG. There is nothing in our theology that claims we only consider ourselves Christian and i would hope that is amply born out bot the LDS posters to this board.

I am also fairly sure I understand what our church teaches on this and many other matters - particularly our basic doctrines.

 

[Tawhano]

Swart said:
I am also fairly sure I understand what our church teaches on this and many other matters - particularly our basic doctrines.

To say we believe someone can only have the HG by receiving it by the laying on of hands is not what we believe.

Thank you for clearing that up for me. Once again I have been foiled by the double meaning words. Let me explain to you why I thought the way I did so you can see I am not just repeating anti-mormon accusations.

(Book of Mormon | Moroni 2:3)
3 Now Christ spake these words unto them at the time of his first appearing; and the multitude heard it not, but the disciples heard it; and on as many as they laid their hands, fell the Holy Ghost.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 20:41)
41 And to confirm those who are baptized into the church, by the laying on of hands for the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, according to the scriptures;

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 76:52)
52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;

From the above I read it to mean that the gift (not to be confused with the gifts) of the Holy Spirit (The Baptism of the Holy Spirit) was given by the laying on of hands.

 

[Swart]

From the above I read it to mean that the gift (not to be confused with the gifts) of the Holy Spirit (The Baptism of the Holy Spirit) was given by the laying on of hands.

We have a terminology issue here. Yes, we receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands. This is the Baptism of fire. This entitles someone to the constant companionship of the HG.

However, the HG is not bound by any Law, except to testify of Christ wherever the truth of Christ is spoken. So whenever two or three are gathered in the name of Christ, he will be among them. Wherever truth is spoken about JC, the HG will be there to testify of it. Where the HG is present, so will the fruits of the HG be present, namely, love, joy, peace, happiness.

Thus those who confess Christ (LDSism = testify), will have that testimony sealed by the HG and is recorded in heaven.

LDS have always maintained that the most important thing a person can do in this life is to gain a knowledge through the power of the HG that Jesus is the Christ the son of the living God, and that he atoned for our sins, and died that we might live.

 

[happyinhisgrace]

Thus those who confess Christ (LDSism = testify), will have that testimony sealed by the HG and is recorded in heaven.

Are you saying that only the LDS testimony of jesus equels "confessing christ" ?

Grace

 

[Ran77]

We are to judge righteously. Living a Christian life involves believing in right doctrine as well as having outward evidence of that belief.

How does that apply to the personal comments you add to many of your posts? Is that an outward appearance of your Christian belief?

 

[Swart]

Are you saying that only the LDS testimony of jesus equels "confessing christ" ?

The term "testimony" as used by LDS is probably a broader term than the commonly used term "confessing Christ" by Evangelical Christians.

Strictly, a testimony is a description of what an individual has witnessed and therefore knows to be true. A person may have a testimony of many things, but the most important thing is to gain a testimony of Jesus. All other things are secondary to that. Once a person has a testimony, they must exercise it. How they exercise that testimony is dependent upon what they gain a testimony of.

Before a person can be baptised. They must have a testimony of the following things:
- Jesus Christ is the saviour and the son of God.
- Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God.
- The Bible and the Book of Mormon are the word of God.
- The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true and living church upon the face of the Earth.

In addition, certain commitments must be made before baptism in line with these testimonies:
- To take upon themselves the name of Christ, and accept him as your personal redeemer and saviour.
- To live the Law of Chastity.
- To live the Word of Wisdom.
- To pay tithes and offerings.
- To give service to others.
- To live a Christ-like life.

Of course, not all LDS are perfect Many struggle with their testimonies. Some don't read the scriptures or pray as often as they should (I put myself in this category). Concentration on things of the world at the expense of the things of God can lead to a dmininishment of the ability of the HG to work with an individual, leading to a decline in testimony.

I spoke with a former LDS friend turned atheist, who smugly said that after he had studied the sciences, he concluded there could be no God. I asked him when the last time he had read any scripture and he laughed and said "Why I haven't read any scripture in at least 10 years!" So it was no surprise to me that the HG had ceased a long time ago to work with him.

I know another lady who is "less-active" in the church. In her youth she had many amazing spiritual experiences, but has forgotten them. When I remind her of them she says "Thats right! I had forgotten that!", just about every time. I believe when the HG removes itself from our presence, it often takes away the memories of spiritual experiences, so the person concludes they never had any experiences. This happened to me. I regained my testimony at age 15 by reading the Bible the hard way (Genesis->Revelations). After three months of reading I gained a testimony of the Bible, and at the same time I remembered my testimony of the BoM that I gained as a 12YO.

Now some LDS don't fully understand what a testimony is. You only have to come to a Fast & Testimony meeting (1st Sunday of each Month) to see what I mean. The idea is to Fast and Pray for 24 hours prior to the meeting so that you can be filled with the spirit and the spirit will guide you in what to say - which is primarily to testify of Christ.

In any F&T meeting you will get a few of these really good testimonies, where there are few dry eyes in the chapel. You will also get a few "thanktimonies" (my term) where people say "I am thankful for..." etc. Not that a thanktimony is a bad thing, but a person really needs to progress from there to a real testimony. You will also get a few travelogues, dialogues, biographies and personal opinions. YMMV.

SO. That's rather a long answer to a short question, dont you think?

 

[RufustheRed]

...
The Holy Spirit DOES guide me into all truth.

He did the same for me. That's why I'm no longer LDS.

That Jesus is the Christ.

The Holy Ghost (Spirit) revealed that Jesus of Nazareth, born in Bethlehem is the Messiah. Not the one born in Jeresalem. (Alma 7:10)

That he has restored his church again to the Earth in these last days.

I disagree. One cannot restore something that God protected.

That we have a living Prophet and 12 apostles on the earth as special witnesses of Jesus Christ.

One who has attempted to take the place of the Son of God. (Hebrews 1:1-2). When was the last time Mr. Hinckley prophesied, forteold or revealed anything to his people? An if he portends to have a revelation, don't you have to vote on it to determine if it from God? I didn't see any of the Old Testament prophets requiring a vote.

Also, when I was duped into the LDS organization, I was told that it restored the Biblical church. Nowhere do I see that there were "General Authorities", Presidents and his counselors (also called Apostles) which would make at least fourteen apostles and if one considers that you president came from the ranks of your apostles, that would make the number fifteen, unless of course the president of the LDS church sheds his title of "apostle." That, in of itself, is not a restoration, it is an attempt at re-invention.

That we have another testament of Jesus Christ in the Book of Mormon.

That you have a testament of another Jesus Christ in the Book of Mormon.

I know these things of no man. The Holy Spirit of God has born witness of these things to me.

Ditto. I couldn't have said it better myself.

Sven

 

[Rescued One]

How does that apply to the personal comments you add to many of your posts? Is that an outward appearance of your Christian belief?

If you are referring to your disagreement with me and your accusations on "Whose eyes are made to see by God?" thread, say so. I perceive that you enjoy singling me out for criticism. I'm sorry. Ces't la vie.