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Looking Forward to Celestial Glory!

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Rescued One

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Hadya going there, didn't I? :D


The Mormons sure hate to admit what they actually believe:
After men have got their exaltation and their crowns---have become Gods, even the sons of God---are made Kings of kings and Lords of lords, they have power then of propagating their species in spirit; and that is the first of their operations with regard to organizing a world. Power is then given to them to organize the elements, and then commence the organization of tabernacles. (Brigham Young, JD 6:275.)
 

Visage of Glory

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I see no point of this thread.

However, I am not scared to admit that I do believe that if I recieve my endowments, get married and sealed to my wife and children in the Lord's temple, strive to follow all of His commandments to the best of my ability, repent and allow His grace to save me when I fail, and do everything else the Lord as commanded of me, I will be allowed to become a god by the Almighty God.

"58. Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God-

59. Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ's, and Christ is God's.
"
D&C 76.

There is the scriptural reference, free for anyone to read and research if they so feel the need. It is not something hidden. It is not taught in some dark closest in the Bishop's office, or written in some handbook handed only to the devout. It is stated in the Doctrine and Covenants quite clearly. Please do not act like it is some sinister secret that we try to shroud. It is an insult to our honesty.
 
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trinity2359

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Blackguard_ said:
Visage,

Would you say this verse applies to you?

Isaiah 14:14
"I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."

Actually, we are looking at these verses:

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

How is Jesus Glorified? He sits at the right hand of the Father. And does not an heir inherit all that the endower has? Therefore we will be joint-heirs with Christ of all that God the Father has.

Matthew 5:48: "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

1 John 3:2: "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

Hebrews 12:22-23: In the heavenly Jerusalem there are "the spirits of just men made perfect."

Revelation 2:26-27: "To him who is victorious, to him who perseveres in doing my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations--that same authority which I received from my Father--and [quoting Psalm 2:9] he shall rule them with an iron rod, smashing them to bits like earthenware" (NEB).

Revelation 3:21: "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."
 
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unbound

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trinity2359 said:
Actually, we are looking at these verses:

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

How is Jesus Glorified? He sits at the right hand of the Father. And does not an heir inherit all that the endower has? Therefore we will be joint-heirs with Christ of all that God the Father has.
I read joint heirs. Not joint gods.

Matthew 5:48: "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in
heaven is perfect."
The ONLY way this is possible is by allowing Jesus to make us perfect through His perfection. He makes us worthy of inheritance.
1 John 3:2: "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

Hebrews 12:22-23: In the heavenly Jerusalem there are "the spirits of just men made perfect."Notice it didnt say MAN made perfect, it said spirits of men.

Revelation 2:26-27: "To him who is victorious, to him who perseveres in doing my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations--that same authority which I received from my Father--and [quoting Psalm 2:9] he shall rule them with an iron rod, smashing them to bits like earthenware" (NEB).This verse seems to support you, but then read it again. Who exactly will get "smashed to bits"? Its the nations of this earth, when we get the victory over our enemies. Im sure it doesnt mean "smashing to bits" rulers on other planets.

Revelation 3:21: "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."
I see one throne here, not a god and a throne for each world.
 
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arizona_sunshine

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GodsWordisTrue said:
The Mormons sure hate to admit what they actually believe:


I dont hate admitting this is what we believe. We have a divine potential that is described in what we consider God-given scripture.

Your confusion over 'what we hate admitting' may be that this is not what drives us in our faith, it is not our motivation, and we will not 'admit' that this is our motivation because it is not. We do not subscribe to the LDS church so that we can become 'gods.' We subscribe to this faith because we feel that by so doing we are following Christ. I know that you disagree.
 
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Rescued One

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arizona_sunshine said:
I dont hate admitting this is what we believe. We have a divine potential that is described in what we consider God-given scripture.

Your confusion over 'what we hate admitting' may be that this is not what drives us in our faith, it is not our motivation, and we will not 'admit' that this is our motivation because it is not. We do not subscribe to the LDS church so that we can become 'gods.' We subscribe to this faith because we feel that by so doing we are following Christ. I know that you disagree.
I did not address anyone's reason for being LDS.

I think people ought to pay particular attention to this part of what Brigham Young taught:

After men have got their exaltation and their crowns---have become Gods, even the sons of God---are made Kings of kings and Lords of lords,

Isaiah 43
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.


1 Timothy 6
14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.


 
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arizona_sunshine

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GodsWordisTrue said:
I think people ought to pay particular attention to this part of what Brigham Young taught.


Okay then. If I promise to 'pay particular attention' to teachings of BY (though I do not agree with his every documented utterance, as has been established time and time again) will you promise to stop making blanket statements about people within my faith?

for example

mormons hate to admit what they really believe

or

all mormons want the world to think they are Christians


is that fair, gwit?
:)
 
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Rescued One

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arizona_sunshine said:
Okay then. If I promise to 'pay particular attention' to teachings of BY (though I do not agree with his every documented utterance, as has been established time and time again) will you promise to stop making blanket statements about people within my faith?

for example

mormons hate to admit what they really believe

or

all mormons want the world to think they are Christians


is that fair, gwit? :)
Let's put it this way, Mormons, as a general rule, do not like to admit that they believe the teachings of their prophets. Is that better?

Was Brigham Young right or wrong in that quote? A one word answer(right or wrong) will show that you don't want to be around the bush. Thanks.
 
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Swart

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arizona_sunshine said:
all mormons want the world to think they are Christians

Hmmm. That could work many ways:

All Calvinists want the world to think they are Christians.

All COTMC want the world to think that LDS are NOT Christian.

Actually, I gave up a long time ago caring about what other people thought of me and my beliefs.

IMO, its an uphill battle they are losing. Despite what COTMC say, most people conclude a person is a Christian or not by their conduct and respect for one another. Behaviour of this kind by COTMC can only work in our favour.

The most unchristian behaviour a person can display is in labelling who is or isn't a Christian. Jesus was very careful not to put labels on people. In fact, the only label he ever used was 'hypocrite'.
 
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Tawhano

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All the definitions I hear about who is and who is not a Christian, is to put it bluntly, wishy washy. God makes people Christians. He seals them with the Holy Spirit. If you don’t have the Holy Spirit you are not a Christian, period.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, [is] God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Romans 8:8-9 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
 
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ArizonaSunshine said:
all mormons want the world to think they are Christians
Swart said:
Hmmm. That could work many ways:


All Calvinists want the world to think they are Christians.

All COTMC want the world to think that LDS are NOT Christian.

Actually, I gave up a long time ago caring about what other people thought of me and my beliefs.

IMO, its an uphill battle they are losing. Despite what COTMC say, most people conclude a person is a Christian or not by their conduct and respect for one another. Behaviour of this kind by COTMC can only work in our favour.

The most unchristian behaviour a person can display is in labelling who is or isn't a Christian. Jesus was very careful not to put labels on people. In fact, the only label he ever used was 'hypocrite'.
You quoted Arizona inaccurately.


Christian is a label. Jew is a label. Do you use these labels or not? COTMC is a label you just used. A label is used to identify a person, place or thing.

When you judge whether or not a Christian has respect for a Latter-day Saint, what criteria do you use?

When I say that Latter-day Saintism is not Christianity, I base it on the definition of Christian that is commonly held by evangelical Christians. It is not a reflection on someone's character. I am not saying that LDS are scum, or filthy perverts or anything of that nature. I would not call Hindus and Muslims derogatory names either except in individual cases. Some people who use the title of Christian, Latter-day Saint, Jehovah's Witness, Hindu, Rosacrucian, etc. are perverts.

We are to judge righteously. Living a Christian life involves believing in right doctrine as well as having outward evidence of that belief.
 
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happyinhisgrace

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IMO, its an uphill battle they are losing. Despite what COTMC say, most people conclude a person is a Christian or not by their conduct and respect for one another. Behaviour of this kind by COTMC can only work in our favour.
I don't know who these "most people" are that you are talking about but if they are basing who a Christian is on how they treat people, they are sorely mistaken. Some of the kindest, most loving people I know are athiest and agnostic and they are NOT Christians.


Grace
 
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arizona_sunshine

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GodsWordisTrue
Hadya going there, didn't I?
:D

No.


After men have got their exaltation and their crowns---have become Gods, even the sons of God---are made Kings of kings and Lords of lords, they have power then of propagating their species in spirit; and that is the first of their operations with regard to organizing a world. Power is then given to them to organize the elements, and then commence the organization of tabernacles. (Brigham Young, JD 6:275.)

Right.

This clip is in accordance with LDS doctrine. It is, of course, only one incomplete way to look at it, but it is in harmony with LDS scripture.
 
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Swart

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happyinhisgrace said:
I don't know who these "most people" are that you are talking about

Most people that I come into contact with. Which (admittedly) is a rather small sample. :)

happyinhisgrace said:
but if they are basing who a Christian is on how they treat people, they are sorely mistaken. Some of the kindest, most loving people I know are athiest and agnostic and they are NOT Christians.

Oh, I agree. There's much to be said for Atheistic Humanism. I have two very good friends in this category. His favourite saying is:

I don't drink or smoke. So I could be a good Mormon if I didn't drink tea and coffee.
I believe in being kind and helpful to others. So I could be a good Christian if only I believed in Christ!
 
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Swart

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GodsWordisTrue said:
You quoted Arizona inaccurately.

Christian is a label. Jew is a label. Do you use these labels or not? COTMC is a label you just used. A label is used to identify a person, place or thing.
I would regard it as a designation. But that's a matter of semantics.

A label is generally a derogatory term. I'm sure the Pharisee's didn't mind being called Pharisee's. But I bet they didn't like being called hypocrites.

I use the term COTMC, becasue it is not offensive to COTMC. Many, however, would object to being called anti-mormons, or con-mormons as opposed to pro-mormons whereas other's would not be offended.

I use the term COTMC so as not to cause offense.

GodsWordisTrue said:
When you judge whether or not a Christian has respect for a Latter-day Saint, what criteria do you use?

The same that they would have their faiths respected. I treat each person belief with respect, although I may disagree. Occasionally I do cause offense, but I hope it is not seen as intentional, and I apologise for the offesne once it has been pointed out to me.

There are some who believe they are right. Feel they have a mandate to "expose" the beliefes of another and then take that as a licence to ridicule that belief. However, it is possible to disagree with anothers belief and discuss that disagreement without mocking or ridicule or misrepresentation.

I think the council of Gamaliel is particularly significant. In Acts 5:33-40 we read:

33*¶ When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them.
34*Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space;
35*And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men.
36*For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought.
37*After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed.
38*And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
39*But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
40*And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.



GodsWordisTrue said:
When I say that Latter-day Saintism is not Christianity, I base it on the definition of Christian that is commonly held by evangelical Christians. It is not a reflection on someone's character.
Granted. I disagree with the definition, and I doubt its universality. That's one of the reasons why I posted the poll. I probably should have researched the possible answers because so many people couldn't commit themselves.

But it does go to show that there may be differences in:
a) What churches may be Christian.
b) What someone may consider someone else to be Christian.
c) Who God considers to be a Christian.

GodsWordisTrue said:
I am not saying that LDS are scum, or filthy perverts or anything of that nature. I would not call Hindus and Muslims derogatory names either except in individual cases. Some people who use the title of Christian, Latter-day Saint, Jehovah's Witness, Hindu, Rosacrucian, etc. are perverts.
Agreed.
GodsWordisTrue said:
We are to judge righteously. Living a Christian life involves believing in right doctrine as well as having outward evidence of that belief.
Also agreed!
 
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Swart

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Tawhano said:
All the definitions I hear about who is and who is not a Christian, is to put it bluntly, wishy washy. God makes people Christians. He seals them with the Holy Spirit. If you don?t have the Holy Spirit you are not a Christian, period.

This is probably one of the best definitions I have heard. I would like to see it backed up by scripture, if that is possible.

I would still find it difficult to accuse someone of not being a Christian. I think that would put me on very shaky ground.

I also find the logic of saying "X church is not Christian, therefore everyone who goes to church X is not a Christian" is ver dubious to say the least.
 
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