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Looking for non-sacrificial doctrine

Robot iMonkey

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What is wrong with the way Jesus forgave sin during his years of ministry?

What is wrong with baptism as a symbol of repentance and renewal? That is what John preached, and Jesus was baptized by John. And here is the one place God parts the clouds and says, "This is my son whom I love, in whom I am well pleased." (Matt 3:16) (Mark 1:11) (Luke 3:21)

On the other hand, the Crucifixion of Jesus is a dark, evil experience where Jesus says, "God! Why have you forsaken me?!?" (Matt 27:46) (Mark 15:34)

It is clear Jesus predicted his death and resurrection. But I do not find "substitutionary atonement" so clearly indicated as you may think. He said it would happen. Interpretation and context were added later, as you have quoted.

He was sentenced to death, died, was buried and came back to life. His disciples were shocked but glad to see him. So where did the added context come from?

"Caiaphas was the one who had advised the Jews that it would be good if one man died for the people." (John 18:14)

The comments of Jesus at the last supper are likely to come up soon. Have you noticed what is surprisingly absent from this passover meal scene described in such detail? A sacrificial lamb.
 
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Captain.Theophilus

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What is wrong with the way Jesus forgave sin during his years of ministry?

What is wrong with baptism as a symbol of repentance and renewal? That is what John preached, and Jesus was baptized by John. And here is the one place God parts the clouds and says, "This is my son whom I love, in whom I am well pleased." (Matt 3:16) (Mark 1:11) (Luke 3:21)

On the other hand, the Crucifixion of Jesus is a dark, evil experience where Jesus says, "God! Why have you forsaken me?!?" (Matt 27:46) (Mark 15:34)

It is clear Jesus predicted his death and resurrection. But I do not find "substitutionary atonement" so clearly indicated as you may think. He said it would happen. Interpretation and context were added later, as you have quoted.

He was sentenced to death, died, was buried and came back to life. His disciples were shocked but glad to see him. So where did the added context come from?

"Caiaphas was the one who had advised the Jews that it would be good if one man died for the people." (John 18:14)


I'm just curious.. based on your interpretation of scripture (which is clearly that Christ's death was not necessary) what was the point of Jesus' death?

The comments of Jesus at the last supper are likely to come up soon. Have you noticed what is surprisingly absent from this passover meal scene described in such detail? A sacrificial lamb.

I quoted it already, did you read my post?
 
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Robot iMonkey

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Looking back, I see your reference to the last supper.

It all started with Jesus making some really good wine.
And then Jesus blessed bread, broke it and fed five thousand.
Jesus said, "I am the bread of life"

And there are a lot of other references to bread and to wine:
Luke 7:33For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, 'He has a demon.' 34The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners." ' 35But wisdom is proved right by all her children."

So bread and wine are symbols used in his whole ministry.
But it is clear in the things that Jesus says that evening he has a darker, very different perspective.

I'm just curious.. based on your interpretation of scripture (which is clearly that Christ's death was not necessary) what was the point of Jesus' death?

What was the point of the death, burial and resurrection of Lazarus?
Does it need a "point?" I find a much overlooked point in it is Lazarus was dead four days, and Jesus raised him from the dead. I find that more miraculous than Jesus raising himself from the dead after three.

I cannot characterize for you what meaning or point you should find in it.
What should be the appropriate reaction to a death?
Does that change over time in looking back at it?
Is art of a death scene a respectful reaction?
(John F. Kennedy died almost 50 years ago. You want to help me make some commemorative t-shirts of his assassination?)
 
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a_ntv

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I personally find the very concept of animal sacrifices and human sacrifices quite revolting.
About animal sacrifices, consider it was the standard in the ancient world.
The Temple of Jerusalem (where Jesus teached many times) was actually a slaughterhouse: every day hundred of animals were cut their throat, hung, stripped their skin off, dissected, and some pieces burned.
The smell in the Temple was smell of blood, of animal, of corpses and of burned flash: that was very normal for a Jew of Jesus time.

The idea of sacrifice was to radical to be changed. Jesus did not changed it. The change happened in the form of the sacrifice: from many very blood sacrifices to His single sacrifice renewed many times in the bloodless sacrifice of His Body and Blood in the Eucharist.

For your prospective perhaps it is still too "sacrifical", but for the first Christians it was a great step ahead in comparison with the slaughterhouse that was the Temple in Jerusalem.

I'm just asking for directions to a church that loves Jesus and loves what he spent his years of minsitry teaching. Do you know of one?
If you look for a church where they teach only the Jesus you like, you are not looking for the True Jesus, but only the Jesus of your imagination.
 
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Robot iMonkey

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Fertility gods and the celebration of the seasons are also "the standard in the ancient world." Remember Jesus grew up in Egypt. His experiences there as a little boy are not described in the gospels, but it would be a mistake to assume all his views are strictly from the center of his own culture.

But this temple is not unique. Paul writes encouraging the eating of "meat sacrificed to idols" So this temple was not the only slaughterhouse in the old world. It is not clear how much of the temple meat was distributed beyond the Levi class.

I am not claiming Jesus ran up to the top of the alter and set loose the next animal to be slaughtered. But it was clearly a statement about the slaughterhouse part of the temple that has been excused and dismissed as just being about the money.


The temple is a huge city centre complex supported by tax dollars (Matt 17:24) in addition to the temple offerings. A lot of city life happened there. It has 13 gates and by all accounts is HUGE:
"Archaeological investigation reveals that the outer wall of Herod's Temple itself was an irregular quadrangle: south wall = 280 m.; west wall = 485 m.; north wall = 315 m.; east wall 460 m. The total circumference was 1,540 m., and the total area = c. 144,000 sq. m." (M. ben-Dov, In the Shadow of the Temple, 77). -- Over 1.5 million square feet.

The idea of sacrifice was too radical to be changed. Jesus did not changed it. The change happened in the form of the sacrifice: from many very blood sacrifices to His single sacrifice renewed many times in the bloodless sacrifice of His Body and Blood in the Eucharist.
For your prospective perhaps it is still too "sacrificial", but for the first Christians it was a great step ahead in comparison with the slaughterhouse that was the Temple in Jerusalem.
If you look for a church where they teach only the Jesus you like, you are not looking for the True Jesus, but only the Jesus of your imagination.


I think the radical impact of the teachings of Jesus have been blunted over the years due, for the most part, to the teachings of Paul ABOUT Jesus (the "Jesus of [his] imagination" as you said) instead of the focus on the ACTUAL teachings TAUGHT BY the actual Jesus. Jesus forgave sin without a sacrifice. Paul turned Him into one.
 
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*Charis*

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Robot iMonkey said:
I think the radical impact of the teachings of Jesus have been blunted over the years due, for the most part, to the teachings of Paul ABOUT Jesus (the "Jesus of [his] imagination" as you said) instead of the focus on the ACTUAL teachings TAUGHT BY the actual Jesus. Jesus forgave sin without a sacrifice. Paul turned Him into one.
You deny Jesus' death was sacrificial? How can anyone be offended by the
agony that purchased their salvation?!

If you don't like Paul, how about John the Baptist, who announced to the crowd
when he saw Jesus approaching, 'Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the
sin of the world!'

In humility, I hope you never do find a church who teaches Jesus' sayings apart
from His sacrificial purpose... it will be a church of death.
 
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Robot iMonkey

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Charis, I am tired of attending "churches of death" I put my four year old daughter in a nice church daycare where they sing Bible songs. One day she said they talked about Jesus. "Good. What did they tell you about Jesus?" "They put him on the cross."

Thank you for pointing out a wonderful passage. The phrase, 'Behold the Lamb of God' is said by John the Baptist twice in the first chapter of the Gospel of John as Jesus is beginning his ministry. That is the ONLY place in the Bible that phrase is ever used. What are lambs? Young sheep. Jesus talked a lot about sheep. Can you find any sacrificial references there? I sure don't see any. It is all about shepherding them, not butchering them. You make it sound like John shouted "dead man walking!" There is no sacrificial context to what is going on, so why assume it is a sacrificial reference? John, unfortunately, died before Jesus. Lambs make a second appearance in the last few sentences of the book of John when Jesus tells Peter, "Feed my lambs."

What is it about Jesus that would prompt his cousin John to say "Behold, the lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world!" ? The healing ministry of Jesus. John 9:3 makes it clear the blind, deaf and lame are seen as sin related conditions. Jesus takes away the sins of the world by his ministry.
 
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*Charis*

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RiM said:
What are lambs? Young sheep. Jesus talked a lot about sheep. Can you find any sacrificial references there? I sure don't see any.
Exodus 12 explains the ritual of sacrificing a 'lamb' for the sins of the household.
When Abraham was stopped from sacrificing his only son, a lamb was provided
for him. Scholars look upon this 'provided lamb' as a type of Christ. So yes,
the references are there.

In Isa. 53, Jesus is brought 'as a lamb to the slaughter'... He was bruised for OUR
iniquities... the chastisement of OUR peace was upon HIM.

Rev. 5:6 speaks of the Lamb, as it had been slain... standing before the throne and
24 elders.
It is all about shepherding them, not butchering them.
Yes, Jesus is the Good Shepherd, that 'lays down His life' for the sheep. (His
words.)
RobotiMonkey said:
Jesus takes away the sins of the world by his ministry.
And His ministry included 'giving His life a ransom for many'. (Matthew 20:28)
 
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Robot iMonkey

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All shepherds (and body guards, fire fighters, lifeguards, police officers) should be dedicated to lay down their life in a ... saving... way. Not just Jesus. Should the need arise, all of us.

I wonder if Jesus ever found his work exhausting with pressing crowds, almost like he is held hostage...

(A mystical vision is much different than the historical records I have been referring to, but...) In Revelations, first there is a description of Jesus, THEN there is the lamb with seven horns and seven eyes. So, I don't think Jesus is the seven-eyed lamb...

(Putting aside the question, "What kind of sick deranged man would take their kid out in the wilderness to kill him to please God?") Metaphorically, if God is like Abraham, then Jesus would be like his son. Not the ram. So, you see? The son was NOT sacrificed!
 
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a_ntv

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In the ancient world, Jews, Egyptian, Latin, Greek, Pagan, the standard way of worship was the sacrifice (as today the hymns and the boring sermons..).
It is reasonable that Jesus introduced many new teachings, but it is unreasonable that he requested a complete change of the religious attitude of the time.
Actually Jesus never excluded sacrifices: He asked to move from the bloody sacrifices of animals that happened in the court of the Temple (in open air) to the un-bloody sacrifices that the priests made in the nave of the Temple: the sacrifice of frankincense (read as the offering of our prayers) and the weekly sacrifice of the breads (the model of the sacrifice of the Holy Eucharist)

But it was clearly a statement about the slaughterhouse part of the temple that has been excused and dismissed as just being about the money.
No, Jesus never dismissed the cult of the Temple as being about the money. He never attacked the cult in the Temple. "He said to them, "'My house will be a house of prayer'; but you have made it 'a den of robbers.'""
Jesus is not against the cult of the Temple, but he is against who, because of money, do not respect the holiness of the place.

I think the radical impact of the teachings of Jesus have been blunted over the years due, for the most part, to the teachings of Paul ABOUT Jesus (the "Jesus of [his] imagination" as you said) instead of the focus on the...

You can find the sacrificial meaning of Jesus death also in others than Saint Paul: consider for example in the Revelation the Lamb of 5:6-9 which is surely an image of Christ, being he adored and worshiped with the Father on the throne (no other figures can be adored and worshiped with the Father other than Jesus himself, being the Holy Spirit be represented by the seven eyes of the Lamb)
For sure the sacrificial meaning of Jesus' death is not only typical of Saint Paul only

ACTUAL teachings TAUGHT BY the actual Jesus. Jesus forgave sin without a sacrifice. Paul turned Him into one.
Can Jesus forgive without sacrifice?

According to the classical Catholic theology (that here differs from the later Protestant theology): It was not necessary, then, for Christ to suffer from necessity of compulsion, either on God's part, who ruled that Christ should suffer, or on Christ's own part, who suffered voluntarily. Yet it was necessary from necessity of the end proposed (St Thomas ST 3,46,1)

And more: But if He had willed to free man from sin without any satisfaction, He would not have acted against justice. For a judge, while preserving justice, cannot pardon fault without penalty, if he must visit fault committed against another--for instance, against another man, or against the State, or any Prince in higher authority. But God has no one higher than Himself, for He is the sovereign and common good of the whole universe. Consequently, if He forgive sin, which has the formality of fault in that it is committed against Himself, He wrongs no one: just as anyone else, overlooking a personal trespass, without satisfaction, acts mercifully and not unjustly. And so David exclaimed when he sought mercy: "To Thee only have I sinned" (Psalm 50:6), as if to say: "Thou canst pardon me without injustice." (St Thomas ST 3,46,2)

What is it about Jesus that would prompt his cousin John to say "Behold, the lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world!" ?
Actually the translation you quoted already gives a pre-defined interpretation (using the preposition "that"), an interpretation that is in line with Luther sacrificial though, but which is not the only one possible.

The Greek for "that takes away" is "ho airon". The point to to who the "ho" ("that or who") refers to. To the Lamb or to Jesus himself ?
In Greek it is possible that "ho" refers or to the Lamb but also to Jesus.

The protestant translations, using "that" in place of "who" (or sometime using "which") gives the idea that it is the Lamb, not Jesus, who takes away the sins, thus requiring the sacrifice.

This use in the Protestant Bible cames from Luther translation in German where he used a neuter-gender pronoun that can be applied only to the Lamb, not to Jesus. Luther, further, falsified his translation translating "airon" ("take away") with ("carry"), in order to force the reading of this verse as a reference to the famous Is 53:4-7 "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows:.... He was oppressed, yet he humbled himself and opened not his mouth; as a "lamb"(seh) that is led to the slaughter, and as a "sheep" (rachel) that before her shearers is dumb"
Usually Christian translation of Is 53:7 translate the Hebrew "seh" with "lamb" in order to underline the parallelism with Jesus's end, but the Hebrew term is a general term for "sheep" (male or female, young or old), while the next "rachel" means ("sheep which is mother").
And anyway the "lamb that is led to the slaughter" of Is 53:7 does not by itself include the idea of sacrifice, because it was normal for the Jews to slaughter sheep simply to eat them.

I end this boring technical post suggesting that not only "who take away the sins" is referred to Jesus and not to the "Lamb", but also suggesting that the "Lamb" of John 1:29 does not refer to Is 53:7, but it refers to Is 40:11 "He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.": in John 1:29 Jesus is the little lamb in the bosom of the Father ! (the reference to Is 40 is common in the Gospel about Jesus baptism: compare Lc 1:15 with Is 40:3)

Nevertheless there are other passages in the NT where Jesus is clearly compared to the Lamb of Is 53:7, for example Acts 8:30-32)
 
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*Charis*

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RiM said:
Metaphorically, if God is like Abraham, then Jesus would be like his son. Not the ram. So, you see? The son was NOT sacrificed!
In a sense, yes, Isaac showed the obedience of Christ... even to the point of
death. But the lamb sacrificed there was the symbol of the lamb God would
provide. Jesus told the Jews, in John 8:56, 'Your father Abraham rejoiced to
see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.' Galatians 3:16 teaches us the 'seed'
of Abraham that was the avenue of God's blessing, is Christ.

As God the Father looked through all of time, only ONE sacrifice could atone
for the sin nature of fallen humanity... and God provided it in HIS sinless son.
No other sacrifice could ever accomplish what Jesus' accomplished, because only
Jesus was truly spotless... without sin... without blemish.

There is no salvation apart from faith in His atonement.
 
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Robot iMonkey

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In the ancient world, Jews, Egyptian, Latin, Greek, Pagan, the standard way of worship was the sacrifice (as today the hymns and the boring sermons..).
It is reasonable that Jesus introduced many new teachings, but it is unreasonable that he requested a complete change of the religious attitude of the time.
Actually Jesus never excluded sacrifices: He asked to move from the bloody sacrifices of animals that happened in the court of the Temple (in open air) to the un-bloody sacrifices that the priests made in the nave of the Temple: the sacrifice of frankincense (read as the offering of our prayers) and the weekly sacrifice of the breads (the model of the sacrifice of the Holy Eucharist)


No, Jesus never dismissed the cult of the Temple as being about the money. He never attacked the cult in the Temple. "He said to them, "'My house will be a house of prayer'; but you have made it 'a den of robbers.'""
Jesus is not against the cult of the Temple, but he is against who, because of money, do not respect the holiness of the place.


You can find the sacrificial meaning of Jesus death also in others than Saint Paul: consider for example in the Revelation the Lamb of 5:6-9 which is surely an image of Christ, being he adored and worshiped with the Father on the throne (no other figures can be adored and worshiped with the Father other than Jesus himself, being the Holy Spirit be represented by the seven eyes of the Lamb)
For sure the sacrificial meaning of Jesus' death is not only typical of Saint Paul only


Can Jesus forgive without sacrifice?

According to the classical Catholic theology (that here differs from the later Protestant theology): It was not necessary, then, for Christ to suffer from necessity of compulsion, either on God's part, who ruled that Christ should suffer, or on Christ's own part, who suffered voluntarily. Yet it was necessary from necessity of the end proposed (St Thomas ST 3,46,1)

And more: But if He had willed to free man from sin without any satisfaction, He would not have acted against justice. For a judge, while preserving justice, cannot pardon fault without penalty, if he must visit fault committed against another--for instance, against another man, or against the State, or any Prince in higher authority. But God has no one higher than Himself, for He is the sovereign and common good of the whole universe. Consequently, if He forgive sin, which has the formality of fault in that it is committed against Himself, He wrongs no one: just as anyone else, overlooking a personal trespass, without satisfaction, acts mercifully and not unjustly. And so David exclaimed when he sought mercy: "To Thee only have I sinned" (Psalm 50:6), as if to say: "Thou canst pardon me without injustice." (St Thomas ST 3,46,2)


Actually the translation you quoted already gives a pre-defined interpretation (using the preposition "that"), an interpretation that is in line with Luther sacrificial though, but which is not the only one possible.

The Greek for "that takes away" is "ho airon". The point to to who the "ho" ("that or who") refers to. To the Lamb or to Jesus himself ?
In Greek it is possible that "ho" refers or to the Lamb but also to Jesus.

The protestant translations, using "that" in place of "who" (or sometime using "which") gives the idea that it is the Lamb, not Jesus, who takes away the sins, thus requiring the sacrifice.

This use in the Protestant Bible cames from Luther translation in German where he used a neuter-gender pronoun that can be applied only to the Lamb, not to Jesus. Luther, further, falsified his translation translating "airon" ("take away") with ("carry"), in order to force the reading of this verse as a reference to the famous Is 53:4-7 "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows:.... He was oppressed, yet he humbled himself and opened not his mouth; as a "lamb"(seh) that is led to the slaughter, and as a "sheep" (rachel) that before her shearers is dumb"
Usually Christian translation of Is 53:7 translate the Hebrew "seh" with "lamb" in order to underline the parallelism with Jesus's end, but the Hebrew term is a general term for "sheep" (male or female, young or old), while the next "rachel" means ("sheep which is mother").
And anyway the "lamb that is led to the slaughter" of Is 53:7 does not by itself include the idea of sacrifice, because it was normal for the Jews to slaughter sheep simply to eat them.

I end this boring technical post suggesting that not only "who take away the sins" is referred to Jesus and not to the "Lamb", but also suggesting that the "Lamb" of John 1:29 does not refer to Is 53:7, but it refers to Is 40:11 "He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.": in John 1:29 Jesus is the little lamb in the bosom of the Father ! (the reference to Is 40 is common in the Gospel about Jesus baptism: compare Lc 1:15 with Is 40:3)

Nevertheless there are other passages in the NT where Jesus is clearly compared to the Lamb of Is 53:7, for example Acts 8:30-32)

The eunuch riding down the road and reading a scripture out loud, He said, "I don't understand." and Phillip hear this, and took the opportunity to talk to the rich guy, so that makes this verse about Jesus?? Phillip's answer to the question is not recorded. Well anyway, what happens next?
Acts 8: 36-37 As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water. What can stand in the way of my being baptized?" 38 And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him.

So where did this random conversation starter lead to?
BAPTISM, as preached and practiced by John and Jesus.

Sacrifices and sacraments are quite different.

I'm not a sheep scholar, so I can't comment too much on the word use there.

After being healed by Jesus, or having Him pray for them, I think they walked away healed, whole and forgiven.
 
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Captain.Theophilus

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Looking back, I see your reference to the last supper.

Thanks for noticing :)

So bread and wine are symbols used in his whole ministry.
But it is clear in the things that Jesus says that evening he has a darker, very different perspective.
In your view what was the heart of Jesus' teaching? Since I believe the heart of Jesus' teaching was that he came to die and be a sacrifice for sins (mt. 20:28), what is your view? I'm just trying to see where you are getting at. What was the heart of Jesus' teaching in your view?


What was the point of the death, burial and resurrection of Lazarus?
The point was to show that Jesus can raise a dead man. We are all dead in our trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1), however Christ raises us from the dead spiritually and his raising of Lazarus is a physical demonstration of that.

Does it need a "point?" I find a much overlooked point in it is Lazarus was dead four days, and Jesus raised him from the dead. I find that more miraculous than Jesus raising himself from the dead after three.
All I was asking you was what you believed about it and you answered my question. You said "it doesn't need a point" which explains your view to me. I was just trying to see where you are coming from. So your view of Jesus death would be that it has no point, or that if it does have a point you don't need to know it-- am I accurately representing your view or is that wrong?
 
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Robot iMonkey

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How did Jesus discribe his ministry?
(also in Matt 11)
Luke 7: 21At that very time Jesus cured many who had diseases, sicknesses and evil spirits, and gave sight to many who were blind. 22So he replied to the messengers, "Go back and report to John what you have seen and heard: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor.


I am not saying the cursifixion of Christ is of no value. Suffering is a universal experience. But there are many ways to measure value. The most obvious is this is a story that is read, so there are may ways it is important, if viewing the Gospels as 'liturature'. It has personal value to the reader, or follower of Jesus, who is experiencing suffering. But it's value is the sad, unfortunate part of the story. It is not the point; It is the low point. It's not where you want to stop reading. The story leads on to the resurrection!

I'll have to look more into the Oprah thing. It comes closer to what I am looking for than singing, "What can wash away my sin? Nothing but the blood of Jesus..." The word apostasy is used (in translations that use big words) in the Old Testiment and by Paul, but not in the Gospels. What others call apostasy, those who value the teachings of Jesus, might call it restoration and renewal.
 
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Captain.Theophilus

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I am not saying the cursifixion of Christ is of no value. Suffering is a universal experience. But there are many ways to measure value. The most obvious is this is a story that is read, so there are may ways it is important, if viewing the Gospels as 'liturature'. It has personal value to the reader, or follower of Jesus, who is experiencing suffering. But it's value is the sad, unfortunate part of the story.

What can you quote from the Old Testament or anywhere else to support your claim that the point of Jesus' death was so that we can sympathize with him at the low times of our life?

It is not the point; It is the low point. It's not where you want to stop reading. The story leads on to the resurrection!

Every Christian is already in agreement with you that the resurrection is the high point of the story. We just differ in that we purport that the death was necessary to kill sin. By the way Jesus did not come to die, he came to kill death, but dying was necessary because it was the only way he could. If you don't like death then Jesus dying actually fits right in with your logic because he came to KILL death, and all who believe in him will have eternal life so I wouldn't say that Jesus' death is supporting the idea of death.
 
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Robot iMonkey

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I just read the end of all four gospels. (And a fragment that tells the same part of the story named "The Gospel of Peter" which is fairly consistent with the four gospels in the Bible.) My observations: Baptism is mentioned in Matthiew and Mark, and Jesus eats a lot of fish in John. There are several references to these events being a fulfillement of Old Testiment scripture, but no direct OT quotes are given. In the reactions of those who met the resurrected Jesus, I do not see even the slightest hint of this "We're so glad you died!" doctrine. I have a new favorite verse -- John 20:20 " The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord. " Now that's clarity of vision!
 
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*Charis*

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RiM said:
In the reactions of those who met the resurrected Jesus, I do not see even the slightest hint of this "We're so glad you died!" doctrine. I have a new favorite verse -- John 20:20 " The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord. " Now that's clarity of vision!
All through Acts, after Jesus ascended, we see even a 'clearer vision' in
the disciples and apostles. When the promised Holy Spirit comes, they see
the full impact of Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection, and preach it.

The book of Revelation is the 'Revelation of Jesus Christ'. He is seen there
as the Lamb, slain, resurrected and glorified, The High Priest, who lives to
ever make intercession for the saints... worthy of all praise and power because
of the things He suffered.
 
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I just read the end of all four gospels. (And a fragment that tells the same part of the story named "The Gospel of Peter" which is fairly consistent with the four gospels in the Bible.) My observations: Baptism is mentioned in Matthiew and Mark, and Jesus eats a lot of fish in John. There are several references to these events being a fulfillement of Old Testiment scripture, but no direct OT quotes are given. In the reactions of those who met the resurrected Jesus, I do not see even the slightest hint of this "We're so glad you died!" doctrine. I have a new favorite verse -- John 20:20 " The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord. " Now that's clarity of vision!

From what I've read of your posts, you would understand Orthodoxy. You just need to experience it, if your truly sincere in your desire to give your life to follow Him.
If your Orthodox your whole year, every day, centers around His life.

The crucifixion was simply the means of his certain death, because He was fully human as we are while also being fully God.
Indeed the Incarnation is a miraculous mystery to us. As is the Transfiguration and Resurrection.

As to blood sacrifices such as you detest, so does God. Temple sacrifices were instituted in the OT to support the priests. The Israelites still had to confess and repent to the priest. It was the eternal shewbread on the altar that represented Jesus Christ. Which was not leaven by the way.

There is a couple aspects of "sacrifice" in reference to Jesus. One being that God Himself partook of our humanity in the flesh, which also meant He must face death. I'd call that a sacrifice. However there is far more to it than that. But you have to see it from the perspective of a priest to get the full beauty of it.

Here is a couple snips from my blog:
....The Jews never held to literal human sacrifices nor blood sacrifices. The Levitical priesthood was established to replace the first born. IOW they represented every first born of Israel. Or put another way, the first fruits, of priesthood. A heavenly concept associated with Christ, the ONLY begotten of the Father. ......
Aspect of Eternity: Blood atoning for sin???

<snip> When a perfect part of creation was offered to the all-holy Trinity, a perfect act of Worship was finally achieved by humanity. We share in this by becoming one with Christ, i.e. by partaking of His uncreated, Life-giving Energies. What He did is not simply imputed to us, but we actually share in what He did by being ontological (not virtual or metaphorical) members of His Body--one with Him in true, not virtual, reality. The divine Liturgy says that Christ is both Offerer (in us) and Offered.
(Offering is the essence of Sacrifice and can be repeated; Christ's Death on the Cross, mistaken for the essence of Sacrifice by Protestants, cannot be repeated, but does not even occur in non-propitiatory sacrifices.) <snip>

<snip> But the Crucifixion, perfect in Itself, was not all there was to Christ's humiliation. Of His Incarnation, Hebrew 2:17 says: ". . . it was needful for Him to become like [his] brothers in all [respects], in order that He might also become a compassionate and faithful high Priest with regard to things pertaining to God for the sake of atoning for the sins of the people." The following verse adds: "For in that He has suffered, He Himself having been tested [or tempted], He is able to give aid to those being tested [or tempted; cf. verse 15]." Subsequently, He entered His rest (4:10), a rest we are to strive to enter (4:11).<snip>

Aspect of Eternity: Why did Christ have to die?
There is a great deal more to Jesus Christ our Lord than a crucifixion.
 
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brother vince

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[FONT=&quot]Hey! Robot iMonkey, I like the way your spirit desires. One thing I want to tell you, since you are looking genuine relationship with Jesus. There are so many kind of Christianity nowadays. But to identify the genuine Christian and fake is difficult. Consider this passage in the book of Acts 20:[/FONT][FONT=&quot]29-30[/FONT][FONT=&quot]For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. Fake Christians came from the genuine one. We cannot deny the fact that there are false Christians today, and it is our duty to identify and watch over them.[/FONT]
 
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