Looking for non-sacrificial doctrine

[Robot iMonkey]

After some consideration of Christian teaching and history, ancient Hebrew practice, and my own personal sensibilities, I have come to see that the major difference between my views and the great majority of Christian thought boils down to one point of conflict. That is the concept of blood sacrifices. (I'm not posting this here to debate this issue. If you want to do so, look for other messages I have posted.) Growing up in traditional Baptist churches, preachers would always rail against those other liberal denominations that teach Jesus was just a good man instead of acknowledging him as the Divine Son of God. Well now I am all grown up and intelligent enough to make up my own mind. I want to be a part of a Christian community that celebrates the life, miracles, healing and teaching of Jesus. I want to learn from Jesus. I want to celebrate the life of Jesus. Not his death as a substitutionary sacrifice. I am looking for a denomination or other group that keeps their thought and religious practice as close to the actual teaching of Jesus as possible. Any suggestions on who that would be?

(Please, no hate mail.)

 

[OzSpen]

Robot,

Well now I am all grown up and intelligent enough to make up my own mind. I want to be a part of a Christian community that celebrates the life, miracles, healing and teaching of Jesus. I want to learn from Jesus. I want to celebrate the life of Jesus. Not his death as a substitutionary sacrifice. I am looking for a denomination or other group that keeps their thought and religious practice as close to the actual teaching of Jesus as possible. Any suggestions on who that would be?

I have three questions to ask you for clarification of what you are driving at:

1. What's your view on the authority of Scripture - all of Scripture (OT & NT)?

2. How do you obtain salvation that leads to eternal life with the Trinitarian God?

3. What happens at death? How do you know?

Regards, Spencer

 

[Robot iMonkey]

Robot,

I have three questions to ask you for clarification of what you are driving at:

1. What's your view on the authority of Scripture - all of Scripture (OT & NT)?

2. How do you obtain salvation that leads to eternal life with the Trinitarian God?

3. What happens at death? How do you know?

Regards, Spencer

So this would help you in saying where I would best fit in?

1. I have never been to a church that does not use the Bible. I am not interested in referrals to some other religion that uses some other text.

2. What did John and Jesus consistently teach? A lot more verses in the Gospels sound like Matthiew 3:16 than John 3:16. For example, John 3:26.

3. I am not interested in any groups that induce death.

 

[OzSpen]

Robot,

I asked 3 questions of you:

1. What's your view on the authority of Scripture - all of Scripture (OT & NT)?

2. How do you obtain salvation that leads to eternal life with the Trinitarian God?

3. What happens at death? How do you know?

You responded:

So this would help you in saying where I would best fit in?

1. I have never been to a church that does not use the Bible. I am not interested in referrals to some other religion that uses some other text.

2. What did John and Jesus consistently teach? A lot more verses in the Gospels sound like Matthiew 3:16 than John 3:16. For example, John 3:26.

3. I am not interested in any groups that induce death.

Your #1 answer does not tell me your view of the inspiration/authority/inerrancy/or other of Scripture. Would you choose the Bible over the Quran and if so, why?

In answer to my #2 question, you did not tell me how you can obtain salvation or eternal life. I'm no more informed.

I am still none the wiser as to your understanding of what happens to any individual at death.

Regards, Spencer

 

[DesertJoe]

Hey monkey. Some food for thought.Jesus would be happy that you are interested in His life,but are you interested in why He was here? Would you like to know why Jesus came? It makes no difference what we want Jesus to look like or what we want Him to be or what we choose to think we want to learn from Him.If any of that were valid,we could just go out & build a golden calf & have a drunken party.That was what God's people decided they wanted from God when they decided that Moses had been gone too long.It is a real parallel to today.So many people believe that Jesus has been gone too long,so they will just have a relationship with God on their own terms.Pretty arrogant,no?Listen to something Peter said when Jesus Himself said He was going to Jerusalem to die,& then let us see how Jesus responds.from Matthew 16:

21From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.
22Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!”
23Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men.”


How about you? Are you being a stumbling block to Jesus?

 

[Robot iMonkey]

I am looking for a denomination or other group that keeps their thought and religious practice as close to the actual teaching of Jesus as possible. Any suggestions on who that would be?

(Please, no hate mail.)

So far, I have not heard the name of any denominations. Does anyone know of any on-line resource for comparing doctrine differences and beliefs?

 

[seashale76]

If you are nixing Substitutionary Atonement then you want to find a church that has a Christus Victor view. You want to look into Orthodox Christianity. It is what the early Church believed.

http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?7110-Orthodox-atonement
http://www.oca.org/OCorthfaith.asp?SID=2

 

[Robot iMonkey]

Thanks, Seashale76. I have looked at some of what you reference. As a whole I am looking for something that goes way beyond that. I'm not looking for an explanation of Christianity that is a different take on the message of the cross. I am looking for a Christianity based on the teachings of Jesus. He spent three years followed by large crouds teaching, preaching and healing. And his cousin John was also a preacher (but not a healer) What was the message they taught? Repentance and baptism for the forgiveness of sin. It was non-sacrificial. The only recorded deliberately hostile action of Jesus was setting free the animals sold at the Temple for sacrifice. Jesus directly confronted the Temple sacrificial system. I'm looking for a Chrisitanity focused on the core teaching of Jesus that you do not need a sacrifice. Not where he is one.

 

[seashale76]

Orthodox Christianity is the closest you'll find to what you want. I know there isn't a group that believes the way you want. From our perspective, there is Orthodoxy and deviation from it.

 

[Robot iMonkey]

I have attended a Greek Orthodox church several times, a few years ago. (The smoke gave me headaches.) Compaired to other denominations, it is a more complex form of Christianity preserving and reflecting on the history of Christianity. When looking for information of a Christian subject, I will often try to find the Eastern Orthodox view.

So why is it so impossible to find a form of Christianity based on the teachings of Jesus?

 

[DesertJoe]

A teaching of Jesus from Matthew 16:

24Then Jesus said to his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 25For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it.

God bless you & have a great day

 

[seashale76]

I have attended a Greek Orthodox church several times, a few years ago. (The smoke gave me headaches.) Compaired to other denominations, it is a more complex form of Christianity preserving and reflecting on the history of Christianity. When looking for information of a Christian subject, I will often try to find the Eastern Orthodox view.

So why is it so impossible to find a form of Christianity based on the teachings of Jesus?

Orthodoxy is the True Faith and is Christ's Holy Church and follows the teachings of Christ. Perhaps you should consider that it is your interpretation that is lacking and erroneous.

 

[fanatical_jesus_person]

My view is stay in prayer and pursue God with all your heart then god will eventually lead you to an appropriate Bible believing church/congregation. If your intentions are as they sound, legit, then god will be delighted in showing you where to head. He loves you and will guide you through this ordeal im sure

 

[a_ntv]

After some consideration of Christian teaching and history, ancient Hebrew practice, and my own personal sensibilities, I have come to see that the major difference between my views and the great majority of Christian thought boils down to one point of conflict. That is the concept of blood sacrifices. (I'm not posting this here to debate this issue. If you want to do so, look for other messages I have posted.) Growing up in traditional Baptist churches, preachers would always rail against those other liberal denominations that teach Jesus was just a good man instead of acknowledging him as the Divine Son of God. Well now I am all grown up and intelligent enough to make up my own mind. I want to be a part of a Christian community that celebrates the life, miracles, healing and teaching of Jesus. I want to learn from Jesus. I want to celebrate the life of Jesus. Not his death as a substitutionary sacrifice. I am looking for a denomination or other group that keeps their thought and religious practice as close to the actual teaching of Jesus as possible. Any suggestions on who that would be?

(Please, no hate mail.)

Usually Orthodox (but on a lesser degree also Catholic) are by far less concerned to "Salvation" and "Cross" than Protestants.

The focus on Salvation is typical of Protestantism only.

Actually the aim taught by Jesus in His preaching was to be Perfect: Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
To be perfect is more than simply be saved, and Orthodox (and Catholic) Churches are more oriented to teach this aim, which was the core of Jesus' predication, besides the salvation got by the cross

 

[Captain.Theophilus]

I want to be a part of a Christian community that celebrates the life, miracles, healing and teaching of Jesus. I want to learn from Jesus. I want to celebrate the life of Jesus. Not his death as a substitutionary sacrifice.

I'm looking for a Chrisitanity focused on the core teaching of Jesus that you do not need a sacrifice

You want to celebrate his teachings. Try starting with this:

Mark 10:45 "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

I applaud you for wanting to know his teachings, but he taught substitutionary atonement. that was the reason why HE CAME.

He spent three years followed by large crouds teaching, preaching and healing. And his cousin John was also a preacher (but not a healer) What was the message they taught? Repentance and baptism for the forgiveness of sin.

Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin. (Heb. 9:22)


If you don't listen to that you are not listening to Jesus' teaching.

-Micah

 

[Nemo Neem]

Robot iMonkey,

Here are two sites that compare the denominations, and you'll see what we mean.

Comparing Christian Denominations - Comparing Christian Beliefs (Part 1)
Comparing Christian Denominations - Comparing Christian Beliefs (Part 2)

Hope this helps!

 

[Robot iMonkey]

Thanks, A NTV.
Good points about trying to be perfect.


Thanks, Nemo Neem.
I'll study that analysis. Sunday in Church we recited the Nicene Creed. The phrase that stuck with me was at the end where strong final points belong:
"We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins."
-- Sounds exactly like what John and Jesus preached.

Captain Theophilus,
The Gosples are full on one-on-one dialogues where Jesus is talking to people like a pastor. And full of his sermons where He tells us how to think about God. I don't find the slightest hint at "substitutionary sacrifice" in his words or a love of animal sacrifice. (Instead, the Temple and its leadership are well critiqued in Mattew 23.)

Hebrews chapter 9 (too gross to quote) reads like a butcher's manual. Wonderful insight into how fully Saul was indoctrinated in the blood sacrifices practiced at the temple. The temple where Jesus showed insight into his view of this practice by setting loose the sheep, the cattle, the doves and driving them free and alive out of the temple as his first great polical statement in John 2:15!

 

[Captain.Theophilus]

Captain Theophilus,
The Gosples are full on one-on-one dialogues where Jesus is talking to people like a pastor.

I don't disagree with this.

And full of his sermons where He tells us how to think about God.

Nor do I disagree with this.

I don't find the slightest hint at "substitutionary sacrifice" in his words or a love of animal sacrifice.

You'll have to explain to me how you couldn't find a "hint" in the verse I gave you, but as if that wasn't enough, let me turn to the abundance of scriptural passages on the topic:

Matthew 26:28 "This is my blood of the covenant which is poured out for the forgiveness of sins"

Hey look! There's another one of Jesus' teachings regarding the necessity of sacrificial death. I realize he talked to people like a pastor, but he also talked to people about the necessity of his death. Do you realize that if you don't listen to these words of Jesus and yet choose to listen to other words of his you have created your own Jesus, effectively a false god according to your desires?

Let's look at some more verses:

John 10:11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep." 15"just as the father knows me and I know the Father and I lay down my life for the sheep"17 "The reason the Father loves me is that I lay down my life --only to take up it again. 18 No one takes it from me but I lay it down of my own accord.

Notice I have bolded or underlined every spot where Jesus refers to laying down his life.

John 11:51 "He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation, and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one.

And of course the most important one: Why did Jesus die? To save us from God's wrath:

Romans 5:9 "Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!"

Every human being has an eternity of punishment set before him in Hell. The only way that Jesus could appease God's wrath and allow him to forgive us was to suffer God's wrath on the cross (that is, all our eternities of hell that we deserved). The wages of sin is death. Either we had to pay it or someone else had to pay it. If we aren't going to suffer an eternity in Hell it's because Christ took our punishment on the cross through death. If we do suffer an eternity in Hell it's because we chose to take the wages of sin (that is, death) upon ourselves and suffer them out. Someone had to pay the punishment. If it wasn't going to be us it had to be someone else and that someone else had to be the perfect and eternal son of God who could stand God's wrath and then get up again.

If you do not believe this, you have departed from historical Christian teaching and also the teachings of Jesus, making your own Jesus which is no more than what people did in the Old Testament when they worshiped false gods. Repent and worship the God of Heaven.

(Instead, the Temple and its leadership are well critiqued in Mattew 23.)

What Jesus critiques in Matthew 23 is the Pharisee's prideful attitude. Nowhere does he say that temple sacrifices and offerings are wrong.

Hebrews chapter 9 (too gross to quote) reads like a butcher's manual. Wonderful insight into how fully Saul was indoctrinated in the blood sacrifices practiced at the temple.

It's not even proven that Paul wrote the book of Hebrews. Many scholars still debate whether it was him or not. The author is unknown.

The temple where Jesus showed insight into his view of this practice by setting loose the sheep, the cattle, the doves and driving them free and alive out of the temple as his first great polical statement in John 2:15!

Once again, the reason Jesus was angry here was NOT because people were sacrificing animals. It was because the moneychangers were setting up tables where they would sell animals for the offerings and they would rip off the people who bought them there. Hence Jesus' words: John 2:16b "Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father's house into a market!". Let me give you an example; let's say you were a poor Israelite that lived in a city other than Jerusalem and you were in Jerusalem for the time of the offering, but you couldn't afford or didn't have your own lamb with you to sacrifice. The money changers at the temple could sell you a really poor-quality lamb for a large amount of money and rip you off. This was what Jesus was angry about when he cleared the temple-- that the money changers were turning his father's house into a house of trade, not that the sacrifices were being done.

If it is not patently obvious now that Jesus must lay down his life for the forgiveness of sins, I don't know what to say to you. I will say once again that if you choose to go on believing what you do you have departed from historic Christianity AND the teachings of Jesus. The abundance of scripture passages on the atonement are clear and I can quote some more for you if you want.

Have a nice day.

 

[Robot iMonkey]

Dear Captain Theo,
My first post said, "I have come to see that the major difference between my views and the great majority of Christian thought boils down to one point of conflict. That is the concept of blood sacrifices." I personally find the very concept of animal sacrifices and human sacrifices quite revolting. We are not going to find any common ground. I'm just asking for directions to a church that loves Jesus and loves what he spent his years of minsitry teaching. Do you know of one?

 

[Captain.Theophilus]

Dear Captain Theo,
My first post said, "I have come to see that the major difference between my views and the great majority of Christian thought boils down to one point of conflict. That is the concept of blood sacrifices."

It is quite clear to me that you disagree with this, the fact that you disagree with this is not in dispute, however:

I personally find the very concept of animal sacrifices and human sacrifices quite revolting.

I'm not just absolutely in love with the idea of animal sacrifice either, in fact if I had a choice I would rather not have it.

We are not going to find any common ground.

I'm not looking for common ground, however I am a Christian. A Christian is someone who follows the teachings of Jesus. You also want to follow the teachings of Jesus. Since I am a Christian and we both want to follow the teachings of Jesus, therefore we have some common ground. What I am trying to show you is that the teachings of Jesus are inseparable from teachings about the necessity of blood sacrifice. You can't have one part of Him and leave the other. It's either all or nothing, and if you choose to take some of Him and not the rest, you have created your own god and you are not following Jesus.

I'm just asking for directions to a church that loves Jesus

If you love Jesus you will obey what he teaches, I just showed to you several verses where he teaches that blood-sacrifice is necessary for the forgiveness of sins, I also showed you why it is necessary. Let me reiterate:

All men are under the condemnation of sin. Sin is absolutely ABHORRENT in God's eyes. Sin demands a punishment. The punishment is the eternal, white hot, justice of God. In order for God to be able to forgive us, someone PERFECT and ETERNAL had to die in our place. That was Jesus. He had to die in our place BECAUSE God is JUST and being a JUST God he cannot compromise his own justice. The just punishment for sin is death, and so Jesus had to die to satisfy God's justice, thereby allowing God to forgive us (Romans 3:23-27). What would you think of a judge who allowed a man who murdered your entire family to go free in the name of "love"? You would say that judge is CORRUPT. He is absolutely ABHORRENT, and he is more wicked than the men he sets free!! Well that's the kind of judge God would be if he just forgave us without punishing sin first. Jesus became sin on the cross and then God poured on Jesus' head the punishment of all his peoples' sin. This is the only way God could forgive us without being a corrupt judge. Does this make sense to you? Do you realize that the teachings of Christianity CANNOT be separated from the teachings of blood-sacrifice and if you do you are creating your own christianity?

[and A church that] loves what he spent his years of minsitry teaching. Do you know of one?

I know of many churches that love the teachings of Jesus. Oh if only I could list them all!!! There are so many followers of Christ out there who absolutely LOVE his teachings. As I showed you before he taught that blood sacrifice was necessary. If you want a church that follows the teachings of Jesus, there are many that do that these days, in fact that's why churches are erected. So that people who love Jesus and love his teaching can gather and celebrate what he did on the cross, but not just what he did on the cross, but the rest of his teaching too.

I realize that you don't see eye-to-eye on this issue and that you disagree with blood sacrifice, but I'm telling you again and again that if you choose to take some of Jesus teachings, and listen to them, but ignore the ones on blood sacrifice then you have created your own Jesus so there's no use asking for a church that follows the teachings of Jesus, if you aren't willing to follow his teachings about blood sacrifice too. You are asking for a church that follows some of the teachings of Jesus, but not all of them. This is essentially selectively taking what Jesus says and, but ignoring the rest because you don't like it. If you want a church like that you might have to start your own.

What I'm saying is that you don't get to start your own religion just because you don't see "eye to eye" with blood sacrifice. You either follow the teachings of Jesus or you don't. Including the ones on blood sacrifice.

Remember the question is not what you "agree" with, or what you "like" but what is TRUE. Is it true that Jesus had to die as a blood sacrifice for us to go to heaven, be forgiven, and saved? YES and Jesus TAUGHT THAT. Once again follow TRUTH and not what you LIKE. Everyone in the world does what "he likes" and what "he wants" but your question about following the teachings about blood sacrifice should not be whether or not you like it but is it true? It is clear to me that you are disagreeing with his teachings on blood sacrifice just because you "don't care for them".

I hope I've made my point-- Jesus taught that blood sacrifice is necessary. If you find a church that doesn't teach blood sacrifice at all, it is not a church because it does not follow the teachings of Jesus. If you go to a "church" that departs from the teachings of Jesus by following some of his teachings but not the ones about blood sacrifice, you are not attending a church, but a religious organization. If you want to follow Jesus you must take the whole package-- and that includes his teaching on blood sacrifice.