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Looking for all the missing links

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Mr Strawberry

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One of the things I admire the most about AVET is that he is up front and honest about why he rejects common descent. Just about all creationists who post here reject common descent, and in many cases deep time, for the very same reason... they just don't like like to admit it, because they think they have to make a "scientific" argument here. Not AVET.

Yes, he happily admits he rejects evolution/science/reality/anything that contradicts his beliefs. It's certainly an upfront and honest approach, however redundant it leaves his position. It also implies some very deep need for his beliefs to be true. All the evolution deniers I've seen on this forum will employ variations of the same denial tactics when pushed and some will get quite agitated and aggressive if prodded about it, revealing the same deep emotional need. They are not as honest about what they are doing as AVET and possibly aren't even honest about it with themselves.
 
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DaneaFL

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Only if you think that "Zero" means the same as "Non-zero".

Do you think that, AV?

(And don't start saying that we used to call it "zero" gravity. It was never an accurate name and it was only used because of the appearance of the astronauts floating weightlessly. No scientist ever actually thought that the astronauts were actually free of the Earth's gravity well. The only people who actually thought there was ZERO gravity in low Earth orbit were laymen who didn't know any better.)

aww why did you have to go and add that last part to your comment?

Now he can't even use his semantics arguments... You know how much he loves word games... why would you take that away from him? meanie...

Mr Strawberry said:
Yes, he happily admits he rejects evolution/science/reality/anything that contradicts his beliefs. It's certainly an upfront and honest approach, however redundant it leaves his position. It also implies some very deep need for his beliefs to be true. All the evolution deniers I've seen on this forum will employ variations of the same denial tactics when pushed and some will get quite agitated and aggressive if prodded about it, revealing the same deep emotional need. They are not as honest about what they are doing as AVET and possibly aren't even honest about it with themselves.

Yeah, this is something I don't get with creationists... wouldn't it be better to simply twist your beliefs into fitting with science and reality instead of living with the cognitive dissonance that comes from knowing you are defending those beliefs AGAINST reality?

I mean, if you absolutely have to hold on to ancient superstitious for some personal, emotional reasons then wouldn't it make it easier to believe those things if they at least somewhat matched with reality?

I guess I just don't get it.
 
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DaneaFL

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Actually... I just thought about it and I know why they don't accept reality.

If they start by accepting that the scientific method, our senses, and physical evidence are reliable ways to figure out truth, then they will be forced to use said methods to defend ALL of their specific beliefs like a literal adam and eve, a global flood, walking on water, and resurrections.

Since they know they won't be able to do any of these things, their only option is to reject the entirety of human knowledge along with the scientific method itself.

It's the whole "if you can walk a foot you can walk a mile" philosophy.
If they accepted that we human are actually capable of objectively figuring out if things are true or not, every single part of their dogma would be under threat.

So they have no choice but to deny EVERYTHING.
 
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AV1611VET

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So they have no choice but to deny EVERYTHING.
Oh, I think one or two of us can come up with a set of standards that can nicely reconcile science's conclusions with the Scriptures, don't you?
 
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selfinflikted

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Oh, I think one or two of us can come up with a set of standards that can nicely reconcile science's conclusions with the Scriptures, don't you?

"If the Bible is silent on the matter, I'll go with science. If science contradicts the Bible, I'll go with the Bible - every time."

Now, tell me how good I am, AV. TELL ME. ;)
 
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AV1611VET

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"If the Bible is silent on the matter, I'll go with science. If science contradicts the Bible, I'll go with the Bible - every time."

Now, tell me how good I am, AV. TELL ME. ;)
I like this! I really do!

Do you mind if I reword mine accordingly?
 
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Astridhere

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So if you understand the science enough to make statements like this, you can therefore explain to us the importance of the involucrum in the current debate about Indohyus's role in whale evolution. Also, why is it important that the mouse deer is a member of the artiodactyls? Also, how do the mesonychids fit into this picture? Why is the presence of osteosclerosic bones important?

Or is it that you just posted some pictures but you don't really understand the science behind those pictures?

You are a champion of never supporting your view and can only ask more and more questions.

Creationists are well aware of these silly games you evos play. You do understand don't you, that I do not have to have the answers to every question anymore than you evos do.

You obvously cannot deal with the evidence and comparisons I have given so far because you do not refute me, you just keep asking more questions. Are you hoping that finally you may score a point?

Do you disagree with your evo researcher in suggesting indohyus looks like a mouse deer?

Well lets see what you want to know now. The good old involucrum. I'd say there are 2 possibilities in relation to the involucrum and a mouse deer ancestor or variation.

One would be that Indohyus was found in pieces and reseachers agree that Indohyus is a mosaic of possibly several species washed together. Therefore this fossil middle ear may not belong to indohyus at all. The fossil is not credible.

Secondly, perhaps the mouse deer ancestors were even more aquatic than today.

I support the first.

I am not the only person to alledge your comparisons are a sham. Many evo scientists also do not agree because DNA contradicts morphology.eg Kenneth Rose a professor of functional anatomy. Of course you evos can play with algorithms and get the results you want with a little tweaking and ignorance. Some budding head line seeking evo researcher will invent some algorithm to make the reqyured link, so don't worry too much.

In "The Scientific American", entitled "Closest Whale Cousin—A Fox-Size Deer?" I read that the actual evidentiary fossil was discovered 30 years ago in Kashmir, and was dated at least two million years younger than the earliest known cetacean fossils. Oops! The feature considered the link to cetaceans is “a thickened medial lip of its auditory bulla, the involucrum, a feature previously thought to be present exclusively in cetaceans.

Involucrum size varies among cetaceans, but the relative thickness of medial and lateral walls of the tympanic of Indohyus is clearly within the range of that of cetaceans and is well outside the range of other cetartiodactyls.” But through a thorough investigation of "involucrum", it is discovered that it can be formed in any creature through injury, disease, or at the time of death. In the real world of science, involucrum is defined as a sheath that covers or envelopes, especially one that forms around the sequestrum of new bone. A sequestrum being any fragment of bone or other dead tissue that has separated during necrosis, which is the localized death of cells or tissues through injury or disease.

The story closes with this statement: "The new analysis does not yet unseat the hippo as cetaceans' kissing cousin, because it only takes into account anatomical features, not molecular ones, says Maureen O'Leary, a professor in the department of anatomical sciences at Stony Brook University on Long Island, N.Y. She says that her own categorization of artiodactyls supports the hippo as the closest relative to cetaceans, but notes that it did not include the features uncovered by the Ohio team."


Closest Whale Cousin—A Fox-Size Deer?: Scientific American
http://www.indiana.edu/~ensiweb/lessons/wh.indohyus.pdf

So basically you evo have glued a bunch of bones together than could have been anything and unlikely to even be from the same species if intelligence is applied to the reasoning rather than desperation.

More importantly Thewissen, himself sugggests that this mosaic is very similar to a mouse deer, but is a mosaic of creatures none the less. So again and for starters Indohyus reconstructions are not credible.

Secondly, there is more than one sort of indohyus, one with hooves and one with toes. Obviously something is very much amiss with this taxon much the same as many others where evos dump a host of totally different and unrelated species into one rank.

So evos are happy to hand wave away the incredible similarity of this mosaic to a mouse deer and hope that one or two pieces, that could belong to who knows what, poofs this little deer into an intermediate whale rather than a deer ancestor. That is my reply to you.

To me if something more closely resembles a deer then it most likely to be a variation of deer or deer ancestor. However, common sense has no place in evolutionary theory. As with the huge variations we see in seals, dogs and many species this creature is most similar to a little mouse deer.

I do not need intermediates. You do. I am therefore free to use the skill of observation rather than implore straw grabbing, desperation and wishful thinking to base my theoretical assertions on.
 
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Astridhere

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I like this! I really do!

Do you mind if I reword mine accordingly?

I like it also AV.

The only implication that is not covered is that eventually science has or will agree with the bible.

An example is the bible speaks of the moon being created after the earth. Of course naturalists and evos used to run this into creationists and creationists were uneducated and ignorant to believe such a thing. That is until 'science' proved the bible was correct.

This kind of thing has happened many times.

I wonder about this variation.....

"If the Bible is silent on the matter, I'll go with science. If science contradicts the Bible, I'll go with the Bible - every time, because science is still catching up"
 
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AV1611VET

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I like it also AV.

The only implication that is not covered is that eventually science has or will agree with the bible.

An example is the bible speaks of the moon being created after the earth. Of course naturalists and evos used to run this into creationists and creationists were uneducated and ignorant to believe such a thing. That is until 'science' proved the bible was correct.

This kind of thing has happened many times.

I wonder about this variation.....

"If the Bible is silent on the matter, I'll go with science. If science contradicts the Bible, I'll go with the Bible - every time, because science is still catching up"
The thing is, sis, is that the earth was created before the sun ... and that's going to be one doosey of a catch-up for science.

The only way around that, as far as I know, is to appeal to Strong's Concordance to change meanings; or to allegorize Genesis 1.

I think God "jumbled" the order of His creation on purpose ... knowing that in the end times, evolution would become such a strong belief.

In other words, the more one adheres to evolution, the more he has to reject a literal six day creation; and that makes them stand out to literalists, who are supposed to "come out from among them and be ye separate."

That's why I'm so blessed to be an Independent Fundamental Baptist.
 
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Mr Strawberry

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The thing is, sis, is that the earth was created before the sun ... and that's going to be one doosey of a catch-up for science.

The only way around that, as far as I know, is to appeal to Strong's Concordance to change meanings; or to allegorize Genesis 1.

I think God "jumbled" the order of His creation on purpose ... knowing that in the end times, evolution would become such a strong belief.

In other words, the more one adheres to evolution, the more he has to reject a literal six day creation; and that makes them stand out to literalists, who are supposed to "come out from among them and be ye separate."

That's why I'm so blessed to be an Independent Fundamental Baptist.

Another one for the 'Things Creationists Said That You Couldn't Make Up' page.
 
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Split Rock

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The thing is, sis, is that the earth was created before the sun ... and that's going to be one doosey of a catch-up for science.

The only way around that, as far as I know, is to appeal to Strong's Concordance to change meanings; or to allegorize Genesis 1.

I think God "jumbled" the order of His creation on purpose ... knowing that in the end times, evolution would become such a strong belief.

In other words, the more one adheres to evolution, the more he has to reject a literal six day creation; and that makes them stand out to literalists, who are supposed to "come out from among them and be ye separate."

That's why I'm so blessed to be an Independent Fundamental Baptist.

I still see this as making God a deceiver. If he deceives in this instance (for whatever purpose), you can make him a deceiver on any issue covered by scripture. A slippery slope in my opinion..
 
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NailsII

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An example is the bible speaks of the moon being created after the earth. Of course naturalists and evos used to run this into creationists and creationists were uneducated and ignorant to believe such a thing. That is until 'science' proved the bible was correct.
If the bible is correct, it is so by accident.
As it happens, the earth and moon as we know them were 'created' at the same time. As I understand it, the earth was hit by a large object when the still molten, and the result of this debris was the moon - therefore the earth and moon were formed at the same time (as part of the debris is also part of the earth now) from the same dust cloud orbiting the same star.
 
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AnotherAtheist

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I like it also AV.

The only implication that is not covered is that eventually science has or will agree with the bible.

That could be quite tricky given some of the claims in The Bible.

E.g. in Psalms 93:1, where it is claimed that the world cannot be moved. But in fact the earth orbits around the sun, and the sun itself is in motion.

And in Leviticus 11:5-6, it is said that rabbits chew cud. And in Leviticus 11:19, it is said that a bat is a bird.

In Joshua 10:13, the sun and the moon stopped moving in the sky. Even if you excuse the error that it's not the sun that's moving, how would this happen by natural means that science could discover?

Genesis 1:7 there is meant to be water above the firmament. Where is it?

Genesis 1:17 the "two great lights" were placed in the firmament. The sun and the moon are therefore below the waters separated by the firmament. I.e. the sun and moon are in the sky. I don't think science is going to come around to that one.

An example is the bible speaks of the moon being created after the earth. Of course naturalists and evos used to run this into creationists and creationists were uneducated and ignorant to believe such a thing. That is until 'science' proved the bible was correct.

It also talks about the "two great lights" that were created. One of these was the sun. Science isn't exactly saying that the sun was formed after the earth.
 
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AV1611VET

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I still see this as making God a deceiver.
My friend, if Jesus going around healing people, raising the dead, and walking on water won't keep Him from this:

Matthew 27:63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.

... why should I not be surprised at what you just said?
 
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NailsII

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Love ya or hate ya, they'll at least respect your faith.
Faith deserves no respect - people deserve respect, and that should be earned.

You can say as many words as you like. The comparison means a 30% difference in the Y chromosme and it was not predicted and not expected. If you read the link I provided it states the ability to produce vitamin C or not is somatic and has reversed in various lines of assumed descent.
And the paper I linked to shows you why the Y chromosome is different.
Here's a hint - why do you think it is called 'Y' as opposed to 'X'?
But humans have a non-functional gene, and so are unable to synthesis vitamin c using L-gulonolactone oxidase - but the remnant of the gene is still there,
Why?

Your researchers do not see anything. They get results from biased algorithms that.
So, when science comes up with a result you don't like, it is because they fiddled the maths.
That is a real argument, isn't it?

Get over yourself. You have refered to the research I present. Indeed you are responding to some in this post, finally.
But not all of it is research.
Most of it is opinion.
(Hint - research gets published for other scientists and interested parties to read, not posted on a personal website)

The research I provide supports me in principle. For example if I say that the chimp and human genome are not similar at all and present research that speaks to the huge chunks of missing genomic material, insertions and deletions, the remarkable difference in the Y chromosomes, the cimp genome being 10% larger, the surface structure being different, all of which you should be aware of, then I have presented evidence for my view. Much of this info was in my link to the myth of 1%. Do I need to repost it?
It doesn't support you at all.
Chimp and human genomes are 96% alike.
Yes, there are differences.
If there were no differences, then we would no tbe seperated by six million years from our last comon ancestor with chimps.
I have linke dto a research paper which explains why Y chromosomes are more susceptable to change, in all animals that have them, but you have so far ignored this.
But at least we agree on one thing - because I have never said there is a 1% difference.
Likewise with natans and indohyus. You can say I do not support my view as much as you like. Anyone that can read can see you are a liar.
Sticks and stones....
You can't win an argument by slinging abuse.
It is often seen as a sign that someone is losing their temper, because they have nothing to offer the discussion.
Ditch the insults and try to develop a reasonable argument for your case - that is what these forums are for.

The point is you have modern bird footprints dated to 212mya and only 8my after dinos were supposed to have evolved. Like you lot, who don't even have one common ancestor to present for anything.
I don't know if you posted one earlier, but do you have a link to this 212 million year old bird footprint?
How have you discounted that it was a type of theropod dinosaur, which were present on this planet at that time?

However it is good you say that dinosaurs have hollow bones. Now this silly reseachers of yours can recant their crap about hollow bones being an adaptation to flight, unless you are suggesting riocoloradensis flew.
Without hollow bones, birds would have been very unlikely to evolve as we know them today.
It maybe more appropriate to describe this feature as a pre-adaption to flight, in the same way that arm bones and leg bones were a pre-adaption for walking - as we know that animals had bony limbs long before they could walk on land.

You miss the point. Gliding is a skill that fish has that is all that was meant to suggest. The bible states that the creatures of the sea and birds were created closely together and before land animals. Finding 212myo modern footprints is much better support for this than we had before and it is great for me and a headache for your researchers.
The bible is just another old book of stories, I pay no more attention to that than I do to any other religious text.
By the way, birds are not modern, they are just not extinct.
So it doesn't back up your argument whatsoever, because there is no evidence for a single creation event - nor a wave of creation events if you imagine a 'day' to mean 'a few million years'
i din't miss the point, you failed to make a coherant one.

I appear to have more than you.



Skeleton2web.jpg


ambulocetus.jpg





images

Sea lion.

images

Ambulocetus Natans.

seal_skeleton_2.jpg

Ringed Seal on display in Barrow Alaska.

Indeed Natans more closely resembles a sea lion or seal than a whale. And let's not forget this is a reconstruction just like the Neanderthal woopsie regardless of having a plethora of fossils. Natans is described as moving like a seal. Indeed given the great range in skulls that belong to the one species, dog, this fossil is more likely to be a seal or sea lion relative than a whale.

images

Indohyus

images

Mouse deer

Indohyus is just like a mouse deer. Indohyus more closely resembles a mouse deer than anything else.
And a human most closely resembles a chimpanzee - your point is?
Indohyus and mouse deer are both Artiodactyles....
there is also a major point you have missed - indohyus is extinct, and mouse deers "which are so alike" are not.
You have failed to address why this 'ancient mouse-deer' has the inner ear and bones density more like that of a cetacean than any other known line of animals - unlike the modern mouse-deer.

You have also failed to address the point I raised abut timescales- pinnipeds and cetaceans evolved at different times and in different parts of the world.
If A. natans is a seal ancestor, it is hopelesly anachronistic.
Evolutionists have lost the art of observation and use algorithmic magic and imagination instead, it apears!
I don't think an algorthm would tell you the structure of an ear.
Don't forget, creationism is magic.
You evos have nothing more than misrepresentation to present in a desperate attempt to find intermediates.
again, one fact you consitantly fail to address is that the intermediate forms were discovered first, then came the idea of evolution.
Unlike creationism, which came when we didn't know anything.
Nothing I offer nor any interpretation of the data I present could be worse than the 150 years or falsifications and instability you evos have to offer.
Mudslinging without even offering examples does nothing to furthe your argument.
I not need intermediates. You do. I am therefore free to use the skill of observation rather than implore straw grabbing, desperation and wishful thinking to base my theoretical assertions on.
I don't need intermendiates.
It just so happens that they are there, and so some humans have devised a theory to explain them. a theory which works.
You don't need evidence either, which is why you seize the few supporting papers you can find (even though most of your points are based upon opinions, and not facts) becasue your beliefs are above facts.
No matter what is presented, you will always stick to your guns - and come out firing from all barrels.

Despite all your words and assetions, you have demonstrated nothing.
You have beacked up very little of what you say with evidence, let alone peer-reviewed papers.

You talk of magic and hand waving, lies and mis-representation when much of this is the cornerstone of your case.

Until you produce something concrete, we have very little to discuss here.
And i thought that atheists were supposed to be strident....
 
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