Looking for all the missing links

[Split Rock]

Is that why past evolutionists have put living humans in zoo exhibits to demonstrate evolution from ape to man? Because there were so many transition to choose from?

Yeah... we do that all the time. In fact, I opened up an "Evo Zoo" the other day with three Inuits, two Cherokees, and an Australian Aboriginal. I'm hoping to get a multi-million dollar grant from an atheist evo-global warming combine run by Al Gore. Wish me luck!

Perhaps because the Bible says that God created us in His image, not some apeizoid. Two truly diametrically opposed ideas of origins.

In Christ, GB

Thank you for finally admitting the truth!... that evidence is irrelevant to you, and you will keep claiming there aren't enough transitionals no matter what, because that's what your religious dogma demands. Now we can be done with the discussion on how many transitionals there are in the fossil record.

Oh and btw... your god is an Ape, because that's what you are. Hope you're OK with that.

 

[good brother]

Yeah... we do that all the time. In fact, I opened up an "Evo Zoo" the other day with three Inuits, two Cherokees, and an Australian Aboriginal. I'm hoping to get a multi-million dollar grant from an atheist evo-global warming combine run by Al Gore. Wish me luck!

Mock me and the facts all you wish, it will not change anything except people's understanding of your intelligence.

Thank you for finally admitting the truth!... that evidence is irrelevant to you, and you will keep claiming there aren't enough transitionals no matter what, because that's what your religious dogma demands. Now we can be done with the discussion on how many transitionals there are in the fossil record.

Yes, I believe the Bible. Is that so surprising? You trust the words of men, I trust the words of God.

Oh and btw... your god is an Ape, because that's what you are. Hope you're OK with that.

I hate to tell you you're wrong, but you're wrong.

John 4:24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

​

So many people understand glimpses but they never take in the full picture. We have a spirit within us, not just mere flesh and bone and blood. There is a spirit in each and every one of us. Look at a dead person. Have you ever noticed they (reporters, not the dead person) say something to the effect of, "Police found the body of John Q. Public today..." That is a glimpse of understanding. When they say that "the body" of so and so was found, they understand that so and so no longer lives in that vessel, but the person is gone and only the shell remains. People never say that about their dog or cat when it gets hit by a car. I have never heard anyone say, "We found the body of Fluffy on the side of the road" No, and you know why not? Because Fluffy had no spirit. Fluffy was just a cat, but humans! Humans have something special inside us, something that no other animal has, we have a spirit. We have a soul.

May I ask you a question? If you were to die today, where would your spirit go? The Bible says there are two eternal places a person's spirit will reside, Heaven or Hell. There are no third options, my friend.


In Christ, GB

 

[Herman Hedning]

May I ask you a question? If you were to die today, where would your spirit go? The Bible says there are two eternal places a person's spirit will reside, Heaven or Hell. There are no third options, my friend.

Sure there is - there is no such thing as a spirit. How's that for an answer?

 

[good brother]

Sure there is - there is no such thing as a spirit. How's that for an answer?

A grain of sand that sits atop the pinnacle of the sandcastle says, "I am the highest thing there is, and there is nothing more than this" completely oblivious to the bigger things around him which he cannot see at present.

Spoken like a true humanist.

In Christ, GB

 

[Herman Hedning]

A grain of sand that sits atop the pinnacle of the sandcastle says, "I am the highest thing there is, and there is nothing more than this" completely oblivious to the bigger things around him which he cannot see at present.

Isn't that argument more fitting to how many christians reason? "I am the pinnacle of creation, only I am created in the likeness of god, and have an eternal soul. All other created beings are inferior." Completely oblivious to the greatness of nature around him.

Spoken like a true christian.

 

[Split Rock]

Mock me and the facts all you wish, it will not change anything except people's understanding of your intelligence.

Oh, but I'm hoping to have them stuffed as "Apeman Transitionals" after I get them to commit suicide, 'cause I keep them in cages. That's why I need the grant.

Yes, I believe the Bible. Is that so surprising? You trust the words of men, I trust the words of God.

Sorry, but you ARE trusting the "words of men," when you trust the bible. It was written by MEN. In addition, it is your fallible interpretation of the bible, a group of books written by MEN, that continues to lead you astray, and reject reality.

I hate to tell you you're wrong, but you're wrong.

John 4:24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

​

So many people understand glimpses but they never take in the full picture. We have a spirit within us, not just mere flesh and bone and blood. There is a spirit in each and every one of us. Look at a dead person. Have you ever noticed they (reporters, not the dead person) say something to the effect of, "Police found the body of John Q. Public today..." That is a glimpse of understanding. When they say that "the body" of so and so was found, they understand that so and so no longer lives in that vessel, but the person is gone and only the shell remains. People never say that about their dog or cat when it gets hit by a car. I have never heard anyone say, "We found the body of Fluffy on the side of the road" No, and you know why not? Because Fluffy had no spirit. Fluffy was just a cat, but humans! Humans have something special inside us, something that no other animal has, we have a spirit. We have a soul.

Whether or not we have a soul, we are still apes. That is reality. We have all the characteristics of apes, as well as primates, mammals, etc. These are facts. You can believe we are apes with a soul, and I have no issue with that, since a soul cannot be tested. Faith is faith, but reality is reality. You continue to reject reality because your fallible interpretation of a book written by men demands it.

May I ask you a question? If you were to die today, where would your spirit go? The Bible says there are two eternal places a person's spirit will reside, Heaven or Hell. There are no third options, my friend.

In Christ, GB

Well, I was raised a Catholic (OHHHHHHH!!!!!), so I grew up with the idea of a Pergatory as a third option! Nowadays, I do not believe in heaven and hell and am highly skeptical of the idea of a soul or spirit. Heaven is nothing more than the "carrot" and Hell is the "stick" of Christianity.

 

[good brother]

Isn't that argument more fitting to how many christians reason? "I am the pinnacle of creation, only I am created in the likeness of god, and have an eternal soul. All other created beings are inferior." Completely oblivious to the greatness of nature around him.

Spoken like a true christian.

You are mistaken, my friend. A Christian knows that he or she is not the highest of things in the great order of all things. We may be the crowning moment in creation, but we are not the highest over all creation. A Christian knows that God is Creator and therefore has authority over us in every part of our lives. For how can the created be greater than the Creator?

In Christ, GB

 

[good brother]

Oh, but I'm hoping to have them stuffed as "Apeman Transitionals" after I get them to commit suicide, 'cause I keep them in cages. That's why I need the grant.

(ignoring)

Sorry, but you ARE trusting the "words of men," when you trust the bible. It was written by MEN. In addition, it is your fallible interpretation of the bible, a group of books written by MEN, that continues to lead you astray, and reject reality.

You do realize that your statement equally, if not to a greater extent also applies to all that you cling to? You are trusting the words of fallible MEN who tell you that this rock is this old and this animal lived at this time. You are trusting the words of fallible MEN when they tell you that we are nothing more than apes. You are trusting the words of fallible MEN when they tell you that the "here and now" is all the reality there is and that if someone tells you of a time you have yet to experience, that that person is not in reality. You are trusting the words of fallible men with fallible theories, from fallible tests, from fallible observations, with fallible conclusions! You and I are no different if we are simply trusting the words of another individual who is fallible! But the Bible says that "All Scripture is God breathed and is good for teaching"

Whether or not we have a soul, we are still apes. That is reality. We have all the characteristics of apes

No we don't! We walk upright, not on our knuckles. We have language, not grunts and roars. We have control of fire and tools, they do not. We do not swing from trees. We are not covered in thich fur. We do not have pronounced canine teeth. We do not walk around unclothed. We do not fling poop at eachother (except proverbial poo during election years). We do not have the sheer strength that the apes have. They do not have the mind we have (at least some of us). They do not protect other creatures from extinction. They do not have the ability to adapt to different regions of the world. The apes never sent anyone into space with great technologies. The apes never invented anything. The apes differ from humans on hundreds of levels! "we have all the characteristics of apes.." That's hilarious man.

You can believe we are apes with a soul, and I have no issue with that, since a soul cannot be tested. Faith is faith, but reality is reality. You continue to reject reality because your fallible interpretation of a book written by men demands it.

How does that differ from your fallible trust placed in the works of other fallible men?

I do not believe in heaven and hell and am highly skeptical of the idea of a soul or spirit. Heaven is nothing more than the "carrot" and Hell is the "stick" of Christianity.

Then I shall pray for your soul of which you are skeptical.

In Christ, GB

 

[NailsII]

If you were to die today, where would your spirit go? The Bible says there are two eternal places a person's spirit will reside, Heaven or Hell. There are no third options, my friend.

So we enjoy the life we have, every minute of it - and saviour the time we spend with friends and family.
Conversely, would a religious person not await death with baited breath?
If your afterlife is going to be sooooooo fantastic, why are you guys not queueing up to die?
Surely someone who knows thye will go to heaven should refuse all medical help, hoping that every affliction would bring them closer to the eternal paradise?
Funny how we very rarely see this.

You are mistaken, my friend. A Christian knows that he or she is not the highest of things in the great order of all things. We may be the crowning moment in creation, but we are not the highest over all creation. A Christian knows that God is Creator and therefore has authority over us in every part of our lives. For how can the created be greater than the Creator?

So who created the creator?

You do realize that your statement equally, if not to a greater extent also applies to all that you cling to? You are trusting the words of fallible MEN who tell you that this rock is this old and this animal lived at this time. You are trusting the words of fallible MEN when they tell you that we are nothing more than apes. You are trusting the words of fallible MEN when they tell you that the "here and now" is all the reality there is and that if someone tells you of a time you have yet to experience, that that person is not in reality. You are trusting the words of fallible men with fallible theories, from fallible tests, from fallible observations, with fallible conclusions! You and I are no different if we are simply trusting the words of another individual who is fallible! But the Bible says that "All Scripture is God breathed and is good for teaching"

Science is not the word of one man, it is the collaboration of many. Mistakes are quickly found and reduced, often elliminated altogether.
It may not be perfect, but it is the best source of fact that we humans hae ever come up with.
Contrast this with revelation - the first thing that should strike you is that there is no way to detect and remove errors.
You have no idea who wrote what, and what their mental state was.
You have no idea who edited what, changed, embelished, redirected.... or just plain made bits up.

No we don't! We walk upright, not on our knuckles. We have language, not grunts and roars. We have control of fire and tools, they do not. We do not swing from trees. We are not covered in thich fur. We do not have pronounced canine teeth. We do not walk around unclothed. We do not fling poop at eachother (except proverbial poo during election years). We do not have the sheer strength that the apes have. They do not have the mind we have (at least some of us). They do not protect other creatures from extinction. They do not have the ability to adapt to different regions of the world. The apes never sent anyone into space with great technologies. The apes never invented anything. The apes differ from humans on hundreds of levels! "we have all the characteristics of apes.." That's hilarious man.

we are apes.
We have apes brains.
They may be more advanced in some areas, and less well developed in others.

 

[Herman Hedning]

You are mistaken, my friend. A Christian knows that he or she is not the highest of things in the great order of all things. We may be the crowning moment in creation, but we are not the highest over all creation. A Christian knows that God is Creator and therefore has authority over us in every part of our lives. For how can the created be greater than the Creator?

Well, but wasn't that exactly what I said? "The pinnacle of creation" "other created beings are inferior". Isn't that what you believe?

 

[Split Rock]

You do realize that your statement equally, if not to a greater extent also applies to all that you cling to? You are trusting the words of fallible MEN who tell you that this rock is this old and this animal lived at this time. You are trusting the words of fallible MEN when they tell you that we are nothing more than apes. You are trusting the words of fallible MEN when they tell you that the "here and now" is all the reality there is and that if someone tells you of a time you have yet to experience, that that person is not in reality. You are trusting the words of fallible men with fallible theories, from fallible tests, from fallible observations, with fallible conclusions! You and I are no different if we are simply trusting the words of another individual who is fallible! But the Bible says that "All Scripture is God breathed and is good for teaching"

Indeed, that was my very point. We both trust in what is fallible. Only, I do not claim Divine Inerrancy for what I trust in. Also, "God breathed (depends on the translation) and good for teaching" does not mean inerrant.

No we don't! We walk upright, not on our knuckles. We have language, not grunts and roars. We have control of fire and tools, they do not. We do not swing from trees. We are not covered in thich fur. We do not have pronounced canine teeth. We do not walk around unclothed. We do not fling poop at eachother (except proverbial poo during election years). We do not have the sheer strength that the apes have. They do not have the mind we have (at least some of us). They do not protect other creatures from extinction. They do not have the ability to adapt to different regions of the world. The apes never sent anyone into space with great technologies. The apes never invented anything. The apes differ from humans on hundreds of levels! "we have all the characteristics of apes.." That's hilarious man.

None of these characteristics precludes us from being classified as "apes." For example, gorillas don't swing from trees either and baboons don't knuckle walk. Others you mentioned are just inaccurate. Plenty of human socieities exist and existed without much in the way of clothing. Claiming we have less hair, less strength, and less pronounced canines are minor points at best. You wouldn't claim a Chihuahua was not a dog on these bases, would you? Other apes make tools, although perhaps we are the only ones to use tools to make other tools. Yes, we are smarter than other apes, but chimpanzees are smarter than gibbons. The traits we share with apes make us apes, and the traits that are unique to us make us human. Why do you think Linnaeus classified us as primates back in 1758?

Are we primates?

Are we mammals?

Are we vertebrates?

How does that differ from your fallible trust placed in the works of other fallible men?

They are both fallible, I agree. Where we differ is in the fact that scientific theories are falsifiable and make testable predictions. In other words, we can correct them if they are wrong, and learn. You are still stuck with out-dated ideas falsified back in the nineteenth century. You cannot escape them, without losing your faith, so you cling to them despite what reality tells us.

Then I shall pray for your soul of which you are skeptical.

In Christ, GB

Thanks.

 

[good brother]

Indeed, that was my very point. We both trust in what is fallible. Only, I do not claim Divine Inerrancy for what I trust in. Also, "God breathed (depends on the translation) and good for teaching" does not mean inerrant.

If God can breathe error, He wouldn't be much of a god, now would he? By His very nature He must be be inerrant, therefore His words given to us must be inerrant too. If any part is in error, how would we know any of it all to be true?

None of these characteristics precludes us from being classified as "apes." For example, gorillas don't swing from trees either and baboons don't knuckle walk. Others you mentioned are just inaccurate. Plenty of human socieities exist and existed without much in the way of clothing. Claiming we have less hair, less strength, and less pronounced canines are minor points at best. You wouldn't claim a Chihuahua was not a dog on these bases, would you? Other apes make tools, although perhaps we are the only ones to use tools to make other tools. Yes, we are smarter than other apes, but chimpanzees are smarter than gibbons. The traits we share with apes make us apes, and the traits that are unique to us make us human. Why do you think Linnaeus classified us as primates back in 1758?

You were the one who said "we have all the characteristics of apes", of which I showed you we do not.

Also, no apes MAKE tools, they may use tools, but they don't MAKE tools. Breaking off a stick to forage for ants does not qualify as tool making.

They are both fallible, I agree. Where we differ is in the fact that scientific theories are falsifiable and make testable predictions. In other words, we can correct them if they are wrong, and learn.

If the ideas are proven wrong. The problem becomes how those tests are created. If I have a stick that is actually 12 inches long, but I have marked on it in equal sections 13 inches, everytime I measure something, it will always measure 13 inches. It doesn't matter the number, if it is not correct, it is not correct. I truly believe some tests of the scientific community are just that, wrongly marked. I recently read somewhere that if scientists find an artifact (rock or fossil or something along those lines) that "they know to be of a certain age", they have a way of "washing off" any carbon 14 or uranium (or whatever) that "may have leaked into the item" before they date it. That means that potentially they are stripping away information from that whatever that would give them a much different date than if they tested it straight away.That would mean that there so called conclusive dates are not coming to the correct conclusions! It may never be falsified because it is assumed that it is correct from the beginning!

You are still stuck with out-dated ideas falsified back in the nineteenth century.

I thought God was not falsifiable, or were you just talking about creationism? Where are all those transitions again? Shouldn't there be far more than what we have at present?

You cannot escape them, without losing your faith, so you cling to them despite what reality tells us.

Reality screams there is a God who designed all we see. Only a fool (and I don't use that term lightly or mockingly) would say this is this is random. There was even that one guy who wrote that book called "the Blind Watchmaker" His conclusions were that everything had evolved to such a point that it looks like it was designed for it's environment. Who is living in denial of reality?

Thanks.

You are welcome. I hope you come to know Jesus before it's too late. Eternity is a hell of a long time without Him.

In Christ, GB

 

[verysincere]

Is that why past evolutionists have put living humans in zoo exhibits to demonstrate evolution from ape to man?

And MANY MORE Bible-believing creationist Christians placed living humans in bitter slavery to demonstrate "the Curse of Ham" which they believed was taught in their Bibles.

So what is your point? That "past evolutionists" committed far fewer mass evils than "Bible-believing Christians"?

[The guilt-by-association tactic always backfires on the naive who use it.]

Perhaps because the Bible says that God created us in His image, not some apeizoid. Two truly diametrically opposed ideas of origins.

No. The IMAGO DEI has absolutely nothing to do with physical body structures per se. Biblical theologians have stressed that fact for millennia. You need to study the Biblical text more closely if you are going to try and use that tactic to strain a "Genesis denies the theory of evolution" argument out of what the Biblical text actually says. (Once again you've allowed man-made traditions to replace the scriptures. No surprise there.)

.

 

[Herman Hedning]

If the ideas are proven wrong. The problem becomes how those tests are created. If I have a stick that is actually 12 inches long, but I have marked on it in equal sections 13 inches, everytime I measure something, it will always measure 13 inches. It doesn't matter the number, if it is not correct, it is not correct.

Well, you see, this other bloke has a stick that says my 13 inch thingy is actually 12 inches long. Hmm, what can that mean? And the guy over here also tells me the thingy is 12 inches. Could I possibly be wrong? Let's check with some other fellows ... Oh, here's one who has a real fancy stick, smooth and nice. And it also says 12 inches. I compare my stick to all of those, and find that my inch marks are different, whereas theirs all agree. Drat! I need to make myself a new stick.

 

[good brother]

So we enjoy the life we have, every minute of it - and saviour the time we spend with friends and family.
Conversely, would a religious person not await death with baited breath?
If your afterlife is going to be sooooooo fantastic, why are you guys not queueing up to die?
Surely someone who knows thye will go to heaven should refuse all medical help, hoping that every affliction would bring them closer to the eternal paradise?
Funny how we very rarely see this.

I anxiously await my face to face meeting with Jesus, however, there are people like you who do not know Him and I would rather spend a lifetime toiling here on Earth telling others about how wonderful He is than to hide my Jesus in the blanket of my own death.

So who created the creator?

Did you read this question beofre you typed it? He would not be the Creator if He was created, He would be among the created. He is the Creator, therefore He is the uncaused first cause.

Science is not the word of one man, it is the collaboration of many. Mistakes are quickly found and reduced, often elliminated altogether.
It may not be perfect, but it is the best source of fact that we humans hae ever come up with.

Except in some situations when those mistakes remain part of the education cirriculum for almost 100 years after they have been found to be false.

Contrast this with revelation - the first thing that should strike you is that there is no way to detect and remove errors.
You have no idea who wrote what, and what their mental state was.
You have no idea who edited what, changed, embelished, redirected.... or just plain made bits up.

Yet time and time again when people have tried to disprove something proveable from the Bible, it has always held up under scrutiny. Many said this town didn't exist or that king didn't exist, but time and time again it has shown itself to be correct. There are some things that must be taken on faith, but it still stands.


In Christ, GB

 

[Phred]

Any yet, while ignorance reigns supreme regarding science there's still not one iota of evidence that a god even exists much less created anything.

 

[good brother]

Well, you see, this other bloke has a stick that says my 13 inch thingy is actually 12 inches long. Hmm, what can that mean? And the guy over here also tells me the thingy is 12 inches. Could I possibly be wrong? Let's check with some other fellows ... Oh, here's one who has a real fancy stick, smooth and nice. And it also says 12 inches. I compare my stick to all of those, and find that my inch marks are different, whereas theirs all agree. Drat! I need to make myself a new stick.

The only problem with your scenario is that all those guys with the 12 inch rulers trying to tell you the error of your "13" inch ruler are all "non peer reviewed creationists" who don't count for any kind of scientific voice so anytime we yell it's ignored. When we say something does not fit, it is ignored or ridiculed, but it is never looked into. Creationists ask "Ooparts in coal?" Evolutionists respond, "Laughable." Creationists say "Look! Human remains found that are way older than our supposed oldest ancestor!" Evolutionists reply "Impossible." Creationsits shout "There's errors in the dating techniques." Evolutionists respond "Never." Creationists ask "What about all the missing pieces of the puzzle?" evolutionists say back "Is five out of millions of transitions not enough? How much will be enough for you?" Creationists say, "Look, artwork and histories have man coexisting with some large lizard like beasts." Evoutionists say in return "Well, since we have our precious theory that states dinosaurs lived millions of years before man, we 'know' that those histories nad that artwork must be wrong." And on and on and on.

In Christ, GB

 

[Herman Hedning]

The only problem with your scenario is that all those guys with the 12 inch rulers trying to tell you the error of your "13" inch ruler are all "non peer reviewed creationists" who don't count for any kind of scientific voice so anytime we yell it's ignored. When we say something does not fit, it is ignored or ridiculed, but it is never looked into.

OK, we're getting into the deep end of analogies now, but here goes ...

No, this is my fellow scientists showing me the error of my stick. At the same time I also met some creationists who were telling me that my stick really is 600 million miles long. And that it is made of bananas and peanut butter created ex nihilo by the Great Green Arkleseizure in the sky. This sounds way over the top to me, and since they can't corroborate their statements, I choose to listen to my 12 inch stick compatriots.

 

[SkyWriting]

What Good Brother is trying to say with his numbers is this: <SNIP>

Just because you were kicked off a bible translation team, ya can't make up for it here by translating peoples posts here.

 

[NailsII]

If God can breathe error, He wouldn't be much of a god, now would he? By His very nature He must be be inerrant, therefore His words given to us must be inerrant too. If any part is in error, how would we know any of it all to be true?

So if it can be shown that god did/said something immoral, then is he immoral? Or, because he is all good is everything he said moral as he is the moral lawgiver?
Part of the bible being wrong doesn't make the rest wrong, that is of course a logical fallacy.
One whole book could be made up by a 'false prophet' and not been noticed. This is entirely plausible, as I don't remember god being invited to decide which books were canonical.

You were the one who said "we have all the characteristics of apes", of which I showed you we do not.

We do.
We also have other behavioural traits which are not seen in other apes - and they have traits which we do not share.

Also, no apes MAKE tools, they may use tools, but they don't MAKE tools. Breaking off a stick to forage for ants does not qualify as tool making.

Sharpening a stick to make a pointed end is not making?
You lost me somewhere.

You are welcome. I hope you come to know Jesus before it's too late. Eternity is a hell of a long time without Him.

Lets be honest here, I don't mind Jesus - he seems OK.
Bt Christians are nothing like Jesus - and I'd have to spend eternity with Christians - not just Jesus.
I'll pass on that one.
At least the conversations would be more intersting in the other place.....

I anxiously await my face to face meeting with Jesus, however, there are people like you who do not know Him and I would rather spend a lifetime toiling here on Earth telling others about how wonderful He is than to hide my Jesus in the blanket of my own death.

Running around the question but not answering......
If your sole aim in life is to get to heaven, what is the point in living to old age?
That is a sheer waste of time and effort.
Do Christains fight for life (ie in ICU) as much as non-Christians?

Did you read this question beofre you typed it? He would not be the Creator if He was created, He would be among the created. He is the Creator, therefore He is the uncaused first cause.

So if I was created, I could never create anything - as I would then become a creator myself?

Except in some situations when those mistakes remain part of the education cirriculum for almost 100 years after they have been found to be false.

got any examples?

Yet time and time again when people have truied to disprove something proveable from the Bible, it has always held up under scrutiny. Many said this town didn't exist or that king didn't exist, but time and time again it has shown itself to be correct. There are some things that must be taken on faith, but it still stands.

Until there is evidence for something, it not rational to accept it as truth.
The fact that bible stories mention real places is irrelevant, in the same way that Spiderman isn't real even though his story is based in a real city.
The bible isn't an historical document, some stories may well have real origins but that does not make evey word true - the same can be said for the holy books & stories of every culture that has ever existed on this planet.