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Looking for a Church Home

Markie Boy

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After leaving Catholicism I am still looking for a church home. I like the Baptists, but the Once Saved Always Saved doesn't sit well with Scripture to me, nor does Dispensationalism.

But on the Lutheran side there are two things that trouble me:

1. Infant Baptism - in reading the Didache the process for baptism just does not fit an infant, and that is the best writing outside Scripture I am aware of for early practice.

2. Real Presence - I know it's an old practice, but the Passover was a memorial meal, and it seems Jesus is speaking symbolic to me in terms of communion.

Any thoughts on these two?
 

LizaMarie

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Infant Baptism — Church Fathers https://www.esv.org/Luke+22:19–20;Matthew+26:26–28;Mark+14:22–24;1+Corinthians+11:23–25/https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/11-27.htm Here are three scriptural references for why the early church believes in the true body and blood. Jesus didn't say "This represents my body and blood, he said this IS my body and blood. Also 1 Corinthians 11:27, why would taking it unworthily be a big deal if it isn't Jesus true body and blood? I realize non denominational and Baptist Churches(which I consider true Christians with errors) have answers for these, but I would like to go back to the early church. The first example I gave came from early Church fathers, and I realize that
I can't pull an example exactly out of Scripture, but The church has always accepted infant baptism Acts 16:33 - The Conversion of the Jailer this example does not exactly prove infant baptism but most households certainly would have included babies.
I'm going with what Augustine and the early church believed and taught, and I hope this helps. I am hoping someone more knowledgeable than I will chime in.
 
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Markie Boy

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Thanks LizaMarie.

You know the one thing that really made me pause is what I consider proof that the church can have a wrong idea on a large scale. I consider this with the idea that there must be a priest with apostolic succession to have a true church.

There truly are no ministerial priests in the New Testament / New Covenant - yet the idea spread to nearly all of Christendom for over a millennium.

But I believe even Lutherans today don't teach that there must be apostolic succession, or call their clergy a priest - is that correct?
 
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LizaMarie

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No, I don't believe confessional Lutherans follow apostolic succession, but that was actually what has attracted me to the EO or the RCC is I actually like the idea of apostolic succession so I guess I'm no help there. I believe that some European churches(like the church of Sweden) do follow it.
And I wish someone more knowledgeable than I would chime in here for Markie Boy!! I'm still a Lutheran at this point because of the doctrine of justification and clear teaching of Christ's atonement for us that somewhat seems to be a bit more complicated in the above mentioned churches.
I believe European Lutherans do call their pastors priests and have bishops.
Someone more knowledgeable than me HELP!!
I believe in the sacraments, too, and the real presence which is why I couldn't remain a non denominational Christian(I was baptized and confirmed in the LCMS.)
 
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Daniel9v9

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Heya Markie,

I'm glad to hear you considering the Lutheran Church and I appreciate your wrestling with these questions. I wasn't raised Lutheran, so these were doctrines difficult for me to grasp as well, but now I have the joy of serving in the Lutheran Church, so I'd be glad to help if I may!

I'm glad you bring up the Didache, because that's a text I'm very interested in! Although the Didache doesn't give explicit directions for how to baptise children, it certainly doesn't exclude it. Baptism is a central point in the text, and the way it functions is that it presents the Two Ways doctrine as a baptismal preparation for converts, and as a description of the baptismal life (or the Way of Life). So for converts, they would be instructed in the Way of Life (which packs justification, sanctification, and the resurrection in one), and for all who were raised in the faith, it served as instruction. So either way, Baptism is connected with instruction, with God's Word. We can also see this in the Great Commission, in that our Lord Jesus Christ tells us to "make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you". This means that (1) people are made disciples and then baptised, and (2) that people are made disciples by being baptised. And both are to observe the commandments of the Lord, so there is no difference. An adult and a child are both equally helpless to save themselves, and we can rejoice in that God's grace extends to all, and that He welcomes children.

One thing that's interesting in the Didache is that it allows for different modes of Baptism. The reasons for this are practical and theological. Practically, it has to do with the accessibility of the water, and with the ability of the person(s) being baptised. Theologically, while it isn't made explicit, but I think can be deduced, is that in Baptism, the water is ordinary and the amount is of no significance, because the promise is in God's Word and connected to the water. And that water can be applied in different ways to different peoples as the situation dictates. And we know from the New Testament that this can extend to households. And this we can also cross-reference with 1 Corinthians 10:1-2, where Paul expresses that the exodus, the passing through the sea, is a baptism, which most certainly included all of God's people, including children. We can also cross-reference it with circumcision and how it's brought out in Colossians 2:11-12.

I'm mindful of my post getting a little long, so, on the topic of the Eucharist, it may be fitting to point out a few things from the Didache, since we're talking about it. Now, the Didache is not God's Word, but I believe it's a great confession and echo of the Holy Scriptures and a unique window into the early church. And in it, we find that the Eucharist is expressed liturgically and in clear connection with Jesus. There is bread and wine that is received, it's called spiritual food and drink and eternal life, so there's a distinction made between ordinary food and spiritual food. There's prayer of thanksgiving (from where we get the word "eucharist"), and the meal is explicitly called holy, even in the words of our Lord. The meal requires Baptism, repentance, and confession of sins, it's held in connection with the divine service on the Lord’s day, it talks about the communion of the Church and our communion with Christ, and it talks about the kingdom of God, through Christ, forever. There's a clear eschatological hope connected with Jesus, which is again connected with bread and wine. In short, to the Didaichist, the Eucharist is far from a memorial meal! It's something divine.

If you're interested in the Didache, here's a short overview from a presentation I did on it, which also touches on the teaching regarding the pastoral office:

I'd be very glad to expand or help in any way I can.

God's peace, grace, and love to you!
 
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Shane R

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When one understands that baptism is the new circumcision, it becomes much easier to accept infant baptism. Not only is it the new circumcision, it is the better circumcision.
 
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RileyG

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After leaving Catholicism I am still looking for a church home. I like the Baptists, but the Once Saved Always Saved doesn't sit well with Scripture to me, nor does Dispensationalism.

But on the Lutheran side there are two things that trouble me:

1. Infant Baptism - in reading the Didache the process for baptism just does not fit an infant, and that is the best writing outside Scripture I am aware of for early practice.

2. Real Presence - I know it's an old practice, but the Passover was a memorial meal, and it seems Jesus is speaking symbolic to me in terms of communion.

Any thoughts on these two?
I hope you find a spiritual home soon

God bless you!

[posting in fellowship]
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Recently we commemorated the martyrdom of St. Polycarp. When ordered to recant his faith this was part of his reply:
"I have served him [Christ] eighty-six years and in no way has he dealt unjustly with me."

Besides the references in Scripture that whole households were baptized, this indicates that he was baptized as an infant, and his faith was sustained , having never faltering in his faith.

Regarding the real presence, Scripture also remained clear as handed to the Church by Christ via the Apostles. The denial of the real presence was the norm until the radical reformation. Even very early in the Church detractors of Christianity accused Christians of being cannibals, so in order to be cannibals, the presence had to be real otherwise, it would have been simple bread and wine, and no accusation of cannibalism could be made.

As Lutherans, we don't really try to define how it happens, we just take Scripture at it's word, is means is. No need to argue about it, it just is what it is.
 
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JM

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After leaving Catholicism I am still looking for a church home. I like the Baptists, but the Once Saved Always Saved doesn't sit well with Scripture to me, nor does Dispensationalism.

But on the Lutheran side there are two things that trouble me:

1. Infant Baptism - in reading the Didache the process for baptism just does not fit an infant, and that is the best writing outside Scripture I am aware of for early practice.

2. Real Presence - I know it's an old practice, but the Passover was a memorial meal, and it seems Jesus is speaking symbolic to me in terms of communion.

Any thoughts on these two?
After becoming Lutheran all of the low church Reformed Calvinist stuff that caused me theological angst fell away. I'd recommend visiting a Lutheran congregation and talking with the Pastor and Elders.
 
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