Looking at Homosexuality.

[Enoch7]

(yeah, I know there are people here who don't like the homosexual topics, so I apologize in advance for that)

I really don't know why homosexuals are making a big deal out of this, or Christians for that matter. I mean, I wouldn't say I'm against homosexuality, just against the homosexual sex. I mean, if God told me I couldn't have sex with women because it was a sin, why I'd try my hardest to stay a virgin till I died. Same thing with homosexuality. Go ahead, be gay all you want, just don't do "the no pants dance" with another guy or girl of your same sex. I mean, if two guys want to live together under God and love one another in purity and not in lust, -shrug- I don't really see a problem with it. To me, the Bible, is just saying that if you want a relationship with a member of your same gender (I didn't mean for that to rhyme) there are certain guidlines to follow. I don't think it's wrong to be gay -- just wrong to have gay sex. Anyone else agree? Disagree?

The original title of this was going to be "Somewhere over the rainbow" but I wasn't sure people would understand it was a joke.

 

[ebia]

(yeah, I know there are people here who don't like the homosexual topics, so I apologize in advance for that)

I really don't know why homosexuals are making a big deal out of this, or Christians for that matter. I mean, I wouldn't say I'm against homosexuality, just against the homosexual sex. I mean, if God told me I couldn't have sex with women because it was a sin, why I'd try my hardest to stay a virgin till I died.

Ok. Put your money where your mouth is:

To the unmarried and widows I say: it is good for them to stay as they are, like me. But if they cannot exercise self control,, let them married, since it is better to be married that to be burnt up.

If you can do it, then you should. St Paul said so. Only if you cannot remain celebate are you allowed to marry.

 

[Hadron]

Go ahead, be gay all you want, just don't do "the no pants dance" with another guy or girl of your same sex. I mean, if two guys want to live together under God and love one another in purity and not in lust, -shrug- I don't really see a problem with it. To me, the Bible, is just saying that if you want a relationship with a member of your same gender (I didn't mean for that to rhyme) there are certain guidlines to follow. I don't think it's wrong to be gay -- just wrong to have gay sex. Anyone else agree? Disagree?

Um... slight problem with that... The Bible also says to not put yourself into the temptation of the sin that you are weak against.

[BIBLE]Matthew 26:41[/BIBLE]

[BIBLE]1 Corinthians 6:18-20[/BIBLE]

And here is an example of that idea in action:

[BIBLE]Genesis 39:1-12[/BIBLE]

 

[DailyBlessings]

Um... slight problem with that... The Bible also says to not put yourself into the temptation of the sin that you are weak against.

So... heterosexual men shouldn't date, and kleptomaniacs should never go shopping, and someone who doesn't respect their parents shouldn't come home for Thanksgiving? How can you possibly avoid all temptation of sins?

Love is a gift from God, and it should not be spurned because it's between the wrong people, in the eyes of others.

 

[Hadron]

So... heterosexual men shouldn't date, and kleptomaniacs should never go shopping, and someone who doesn't respect their parents shouldn't come home for Thanksgiving? How can you possibly avoid all temptation of sins?

God gives you the strength and recognition to know when the temptation presents itself. At that point, you decide to step out of that situation, or fall into it. It is that simple.

1 Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.
​

Love is a gift from God, and it should not be spurned because it's between the wrong people, in the eyes of others.

Love is one of the fruits of the Spirit. And the love that you talk about is a twisted worldview of the Holy love that God has shown us.

2 Corinthians 2:2-4
Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
​

If you are not talking from God's truth -- the light revealed in His word, Jesus Christ, and His written word -- then we have nothing to discuss.

 

[DailyBlessings]

God gives you the strength and recognition to know when the temptation presents itself. At that point, you decide to step out of that situation, or fall into it. It is that simple.

Judging what will be a temptation for you is not the same thing as condemning others for choosing differently.

 

[Hadron]

Judging what will be a temptation for you is not the same thing as condemning others for choosing differently.

Scripture please?

If you are not talking from God's truth -- the light revealed in His word, Jesus Christ, and His written word -- then we have nothing to discuss.

 

[BarbB]

God gives you the strength and recognition to know when the temptation presents itself. At that point, you decide to step out of that situation, or fall into it. It is that simple.

....

Like Joseph and Potifar's wife - she grabbed him and he fled! My philandering bro-in-law was astonished to learn that the Bible taught lessons about how to not philander!

p.s. It was learning what Joseph did that brought my bro-in-law to his knees. He's now well and truly saved. Now if we could get his wife to submit also!

 

[DailyBlessings]

Scripture please?

About not judging the actions of others?

[BIBLE]Romans 2:1-4[/BIBLE]

 

[Hadron]

About not judging the actions of others?

Romans 2:1-4
1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. 2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. 3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

Ah! He opens his Bible. Excellent! Now we can build from a solid foundation and not from a distorted worldview.

But first, a quick question. How is it that you can judge me as judging others' actions, when you yourself cannot judge, based on the scripture that you quoted?

The answer? You can't apply it that way. If you read the passage before it at the end of Romans 1, you will realize that Paul is talking to hypocrites. Let's look at another passage dealing with judging and hypocrisy. This is often quoted by the "don't judge" crowd, but be sure to read the last line carefully:

Matthew 7:1-5
Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
​

Wouldn't you agree then, that we are commanded to cast off our sins before we are able to help others cast off their sins? And since I have already told everyone that I was saved by my Lord Jesus Christ from homosexuality, in fact, that I can then do this? Yes. It is so.

Now let's look at an example of a saint *gasp* judging someone:

1 Corinthians 5:1-5
It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
​

Paul judged this man specifically on his actions in the sexual immorality department! And we are to do the same.

 

[DailyBlessings]

Ah! He opens his Bible. Excellent! Now we can build from a solid foundation and not from a distorted worldview.

But first, a quick question. How is it that you can judge me as judging others' actions, when you yourself cannot judge, based on the scripture that you quoted?

I'm not judging you. I do question the legitimacy of your argument.

The answer? You can't apply it that way. If you read the passage before it at the end of Romans 1, you will realize that Paul is talking to hypocrites. Let's look at another passage dealing with judging and hypocrisy. This is often quoted by the "don't judge" crowd, but be sure to read the last line carefully:

...

Wouldn't you agree then, that we are commanded to cast off our sins before we are able to help others cast off their sins? And since I have already told everyone that I was saved by my Lord Jesus Christ from homosexuality, in fact, that I can then do this? Yes. It is so.

No. You misunderstand both Paul and our Lord- they is not saying that only non-hypocrites can judge, they are saying that all who judge are hypocrites, because not a one of us is any better than our fellows. If you think that by casting off some of your former sins you have become better than any homosexual Christian, then you still have the log in your eye... whether you see it or not.

[BIBLE]John 8:4-11[/BIBLE]

Some of us have been saved, undeserving, through the mercy and grace of our Lord, but that does not make us better than those of our brethren with whom we have disagreements. None of us have a position any higher than another's in the Father's household, we are all His children.

 

[Hadron]

I'm not judging you. I do question the legitimacy of your argument.

So in other words, you are judging my argument... Ok. But let's not get all wrapped up in that.

No. You misunderstand both Paul and our Lord- they is not saying that only non-hypocrites can judge, they are saying that all who judge are hypocrites, because not a one of us is any better than our fellows. If you think that by casting off some of your former sins you have become better than any homosexual Christian, then you still have the log in your eye... whether you see it or not.

When Paul (the self-admitted biggest sinner of all) judged that man that took his father's wife in 1 Corinthians 5, did that make him a hypocrite?

 

[DailyBlessings]

When Paul (the self-admitted biggest sinner of all) judged that man that took his father's wife in 1 Corinthians 5, did that make him a hypocrite?

Well, if you consider Paul's words in this letter to be the infallible word of God, it isn't really Paul making the judgement in the first place. Prophecy is a different matter.

But if Paul is really judging for himself, then that is a mistake. Not even saints are perfect- Paul himself would admit that. So yes, it would be hypocritical, though I understand why he wrote it. He is trying to establish some ground rules in an increasingly wayward church, but... Even if it were okay to judge others, judging someone based on hearsay from hundreds of miles away would be unwise.

 

[Enoch7]

Okay, this got horribly off track. DailyBlessings was just saying that what may seem like a tempation to you, may not be tempation to another person. That we have no way of judging that, because we can't read their minds. Penumbra challenged because he/she either didn't understand the blatant logic, or just wanted some scriptural backing (which I don't think there's anything in the Bible that says we can't read minds ). The only thing DailyBlessings could come up with was that it says we can't judge other people (which is true, we are all sinners, and have no right to judge others for their transgressions). Penumbra took that as saying that we can't determine right or wrong, and disagreed (which is right, we can judge right and wrong). To settle this aspect, basically what the Bible says is that you have no right to judge the "person" for being sinful, because we too are sinful. However, to judge what is right or wrong is not beyond our grasp -- sometimes, but most of the time as Christians we have a pretty good hold on that sort of thing.

I don't know, that's what I gathered from it. Frankly the two still have me a little confused.

I guess the problem I have is that I haven't read anything really "incriminating" about homosexuality in the Bible. Sure, they say it's unnatural, and even a "tad" (sarcasm) sinful, but in my opinion I don't see anything wrong with (not sure how to phrase) this kind of scenario:

Take two guys who are madly in love with one another. And say they actually are repulsed by anal sex. Yet they love each other, and want to spend the right of their lives together (I wasn't even talking about marriage in my earlier post, but hey, I can definately understand how the topic would sway there). And how about the two men aren't even gay, they just love one another. And say they want to become one, they want to have sex to express the love they hold. I mean, as long as it's based on love, I don't see it as an issue myself. Some may say this is unrealistic, but I disagree. Because to think there are no heterosexual relationships based entirely on love -- well -- it's a little sad and cruel to think that way. And to think homosexuals can't be the same, to me, seems a little naive (or at least uncompromising).

I don't know, maybe someone here will change my mind.

 

[Hadron]

Well, if you consider Paul's words in this letter to be the infallible word of God, it isn't really Paul making the judgement in the first place. Prophecy is a different matter.

But if Paul is really judging for himself, then that is a mistake. Not even saints are perfect- Paul himself would admit that. So yes, it would be hypocritical, though I understand why he wrote it. He is trying to establish some ground rules in an increasingly wayward church, but... Even if it were okay to judge others, judging someone based on hearsay from hundreds of miles away would be unwise.

Right. So you are not sure.

I'll help you out here. He was right to judge and it was his judgment. And he explains further in 1 Corinthians 5. The man was one of their brethren and they kept company with him, even though he was doing something that went against God -- and remember that just because we are living in grace does not mean that it is sin-party time. And here is why:

1 Corinthians 5:6-8 (NIV)
Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth.
​

Notice he says they were boasting about this issue. That means that it was their own word and not heresay. So what Paul is saying here is that to keep the immorality among them would be to corrupt their entire church -- a very good reason indeed for expulsion. Unless, of course, you don't believe that sin can infiltrate and destroy a congregation.

Now if we read a little further, we get to a very key statement:

1 Corinthians 5:12-13 (NIV)
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. Expel the wicked man from among you.
​

He clearly states that we are to indeed judge our brethren. But then he goes on in the next chapter to say that we are to even judge disputes between brothers inside the church and not bring it to the local judicial system:

1 Corinthians 6:1-6 (NIV)
If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints? Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, appoint as judges even men of little account in the church! I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? But instead, one brother goes to law against another—and this in front of unbelievers!
​

To not judge among ourselves brings shame and discredit upon us as Christians!



I'll be back with more info, as I have a ton of schoolwork to finish...
In the meantime, here is a short read on Christian judging - it explains my belief better.

 

[DailyBlessings]

Okay, this got horribly off track.

Sorry

I guess the problem I have is that I haven't read anything really "incriminating" about homosexuality in the Bible. Sure, they say it's unnatural, and even a "tad" (sarcasm) sinful, but in my opinion I don't see anything wrong with (not sure how to phrase) this kind of scenario:

It says some fairly incriminating things about homosexual sex- about as clear as the Bible gets on any particular action.

Take two guys who are madly in love with one another. And say they actually are repulsed by anal sex. Yet they love each other, and want to spend the right of their lives together (I wasn't even talking about marriage in my earlier post, but hey, I can definately understand how the topic would sway there). And how about the two men aren't even gay, they just love one another. And say they want to become one, they want to have sex to express the love they hold. I mean, as long as it's based on love, I don't see it as an issue myself. Some may say this is unrealistic, but I disagree. Because to think there are no heterosexual relationships based entirely on love -- well -- it's a little sad and cruel to think that way. And to think homosexuals can't be the same, to me, seems a little naive (or at least uncompromising).

Well, that would be fine with me. I think that love between two individuals is a gift, which should not be thrown aside lightly. And aside from a few snide remarks on Paul's account, there's not much in the Bible to condemn the relationship, just perhaps the accompanying action.

 

[Celticflower]

Yes, the Bible does say some very straight forward things about homosexual sex--but only to those of us who let the words say what they say and not try to reinterpret the words.

But I look at the issue another way. The Bible also speaks out against sex outside of marriage. Nowhere in the Bible can I find an example of a gay married couple. Most places have laws which exclude the institution of same sex marriage. Therefore, many conclude that same sex marriage is wrong. So, if you are in love with someone of the same sex, are unable to get married due to laws and prevailing religious beliefs, any sex you engage in with this person would be wrong on the grounds that it is outside the marriage bonds and therefore a sin. Does this mean we need to change the laws? No, it only means that a vocal minority wishes we would change the laws so that an activity that has long been held to be wrong will be validated.

As far as judging a gay person and "deciding" that they are bound for hell--that is not my job. God knows the heart of the individual and if He is pleased with them so be it. I'm am quite content to leave that particular job up to Him for I know I am definately NOT qualified to do it.

 

[DailyBlessings]

But I look at the issue another way. The Bible also speaks out against sex outside of marriage. Nowhere in the Bible can I find an example of a gay married couple. Most places have laws which exclude the institution of same sex marriage. Therefore, many conclude that same sex marriage is wrong. So, if you are in love with someone of the same sex, are unable to get married due to laws and prevailing religious beliefs, any sex you engage in with this person would be wrong on the grounds that it is outside the marriage bonds and therefore a sin. Does this mean we need to change the laws? No, it only means that a vocal minority wishes we would change the laws so that an activity that has long been held to be wrong will be validated.

Wait a second, do you think that two people have to be married in a secular manner in order to have sex? If a governmental power forbade Christians from marrying and they were thus unable to have a civil ceremony, would that mean that no Christians could procreate? Just because homosexual marriage never happened during biblical times, does not make it necessarily wrong.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Wait a second, do you think that two people have to be married in a secular manner in order to have sex? If a governmental power forbade Christians from marrying and they were thus unable to have a civil ceremony, would that mean that no Christians could procreate? Just because homosexual marriage never happened during biblical times, does not make it necessarily wrong.

You can't compare Christian marriage and procreating to homosexuality. There was never homosexual marriage or homosexual's having babies out of their colons.

 

[DailyBlessings]

You can't compare Christian marriage and procreating to homosexuality. There was never homosexual marriage or homosexual's having babies out of their colons.

The children are not the issue. Does God require a secular ceremony for two people to be married?