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In NKJV, Matthew 19:4-5, Jesus said "Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning 'made them male and female' and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'".
This seems so clear to me that Jesus is talking about a man and woman being married together and not a homosexual relationship. There are other verses supporting this, but I do not know everything.
The percentage of heterosexuals (including regular church-going Christians) who engage in sex before marriage is far greater than the percentage of gays and lesbians having sex out of wedlock.Now if two men cannot be married to each other, and two women can't be married to each other, then they can only be with each other in a non-sexual relationship. If they have sex then it is fornication. Sex outside of marriage is sin. It all seems pretty simple to me.
Are they preaching that being gay is any more righteous than being straight? I highly doubt most of them are proclaiming that gay relationships are superior to straight relationships. Would it be acceptable if they never preached about homosexuality?So while homosexuality is not the worst sin (since all sin is evil in the eyes of God, does it really matter which one is worse?), why do we have pastors who are openly gay preaching the ways of sin as if it was righteous?
Can we please discuss this logically?
He's talking about a man and woman being married, but says nothing about their homosexual counterparts.In NKJV, Matthew 19:4-5, Jesus said "Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning 'made them male and female' and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'".
This seems so clear to me that Jesus is talking about a man and woman being married together and not a homosexual relationship.
Indeed, but nowhere does the Bible say that same-sex couples can't get married.There are other verses supporting this, but I do not know everything.
Now if two men cannot be married to each other, and two women can't be married to each other, then they can only be with each other in a non-sexual relationship. If they have sex then it is fornication. Sex outside of marriage is sin. It all seems pretty simple to me.
Because they think it isn't sinful?So while homosexuality is not the worst sin (since all sin is evil in the eyes of God, does it really matter which one is worse?), why do we have pastors who are openly gay preaching the ways of sin as if it was righteous?
What's to discuss? To the Christian, it all boils down to whether one's interpretation* of one's translation** of one's compilation*** of the Bible condemns, condones, or doesn't mention homosexual sex, relationships, and/or marriages.Can we please discuss this logically?
The percentage of heterosexuals (including regular church-going Christians) who engage in sex before marriage is far greater than the percentage of gays and lesbians having sex out of wedlock.
As it should be for all of us!
tulc(hey Chalice!)
The gay version of Jesus doesn't ask for our repentance -- unlike the Jesus in the Bible.
It seems that you are the authority in your life and not God. God has the authority to tell people who they should be attracted to. I have a lot of sympathy for people who (by nature, not by choice) are attracted to the same sex. If I was in their position, I don't think I could do anything about it either. However, as a Christian, I don't understand how homosexual pastors can preach a doctrine (or live the doctrine) that is against God. The people they mislead will be upon their heads in final judgement, and it is very sad that so many are being led astray.
You're joking, right?
Studies have shown the promiscuity of gay men (e.g., over 100 partners in one year for many). Gay monogamous sex is rare. I'm sure monogamous gay sex is a lot more common among gay christians than the general gay population, so I am not talking about members here. But, come on, dont insult the itelligence of the members here by pretending that the average gay man is less promicuous than the average straight man. Not even close.
You're joking, right?
Studies have shown the promiscuity of gay men (e.g., over 100 partners in one year for many). Gay monogamous sex is rare. I'm sure monogamous gay sex is a lot more common among gay christians than the general gay population, so I am not talking about members here. But, come on, dont insult the itelligence of the members here by pretending that the average gay man is less promicuous than the average straight man. Not even close.
I don't really take a stand as far as condemning homosexuals. Their lives are their business with God. I have no place to judge them.
I don't suppose you have any sources to back up these claims?You're joking, right?
Studies have shown the promiscuity of gay men (e.g., over 100 partners in one year for many). Gay monogamous sex is rare. I'm sure monogamous gay sex is a lot more common among gay christians than the general gay population, so I am not talking about members here. But, come on, dont insult the itelligence of the members here by pretending that the average gay man is less promicuous than the average straight man. Not even close.
I don't believe that at all. I think people get excited and start insulting instead of listening (both side can be guilty of that) and then little gets accomplished.This forum insults intelligence and morality both.
You could ask her?Geee how does she get a promiscuity number greater than 100% for church going Christians? laughable...
The percentage of heterosexuals (including regular church-going Christians) who engage in sex before marriage is far greater than the percentage of gays and lesbians having sex out of wedlock.
The solution would obviously be let them get married.
Are they preaching that being gay is any more righteous than being straight? I highly doubt most of them are proclaiming that gay relationships are superior to straight relationships. Would it be acceptable if they never preached about homosexuality?
He's talking about a man and woman being married, but says nothing about their homosexual counterparts.
Indeed, but nowhere does the Bible say that same-sex couples can't get married.
What's to discuss? To the Christian, it all boils down to whether one's interpretation* of one's translation** of one's compilation*** of the Bible condemns, condones, or doesn't mention homosexual sex, relationships, and/or marriages.
Once that's been established, that's pretty much the end of it. You can't rationalise someone out of a position they didn't rationalise themselves into, so any attempts at debate will derail to Hebrew wordplay, accusations of bigotry and special pleading, out-of-context quotemining, etc.
* Is a particular excerpt taken literally, metaphorically, allegorically, etc?
** KJV? YLT? NIV?
*** What texts constitute the Bible in the first place? The Catholic Bible? The Lutheran Protestant? Slavonic Orthodox?
Every gay that got HIV, did it in the privacy of their own bedroom, and that doesn't affect the rest of us -- right???
Marksman said:Sorry to throw out an over used phrase, but it fits here. "Two wrongs don't make a right". I'm not condoning fornication whether it be heterosexual or homosexual.
Whether or not a pastor preaches about the subject they have a great influence on their church just by the way they live their lives. It would not be acceptable if they never taught about homosexuality because their life style shows the message they truly believe in.
A claim not shared by all Christians. Like I said, it depends on which interpretation, translation, and compilation one adheres to. Some combinations are pro-gay, some are anti-gay, some are neither.There are other places in the Bible that show that a homosexual relationship is not approved of by God.
How? You were making the point that, because same-sex couples can't get married, they can only have sex outside marriage, which is sinful. I rejected the "gays can't marry" premise with, "[N]owhere does the Bible say that same-sex couples can't get married." To argue otherwise would require you to condemn everything that wasn't explicitly condoned in the Bible; since this is absurd, I assume it is not the stance you take. Thus, because same-sex marriage is not explicitly condemned (nor, indeed, condoned), the onus is on you to justify your condemnation of it. As point out above, it is not even clear whether the Bible condemns homosexuality at all.Just because it does not say explicity, "same-sex couples can't get married", even though same-sex relationships (or activities) are disapproved of, then that would mean that only sexless same-sex marriages would be allowed. At least that's where the logic points me based on your reasoning.
If your idea of 'fun' is homosexual sex, you might want to take an introspective moment.It does not sound like it would be a very fun marriage.
Quite frankly, yes. If Christianity (specifically, Catholicism) stayed out of Africa, the HIV/AIDS epidemic would not be as widespread in that continent. I'm an advocate of embracing other cultures, not submerge them with our own.I actually care about people, and I don't want to see anyone get led astray and go to hell. These discussions can be painful on both sides of this debate, but if just one person sees the real truth (whether it be your side or my side), then isn't it worth it to have this discussion? If we never tried to convince anyone of what is right then we truly should bring all the missionaries back home as well. Should we do that?
On the contrary, you are: you are free to choose from a variety of equally valid translations, each one with its own set of possible interpretations. Though you can cite your sources, they are as arbitrary as anyone else's.I included the translation I read it from so people can look it up and know that I am not paraphrasing this or making up the words to suit my beliefs.
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